88 replies to this topic

[Cryptkeeper]

pro choice but it doesn't fit in my beliefs even if it rape child i would never agree to abortion but i won't push my belief on any one else either

but i beleave every one should have the opurtunity to make there own moral judgements

[Mathias]

 Hinata Prime, on 30 Apr 2007, 00:34, said:

Abortion = Murder

Hope you guys get it now.

-Hinata Prime

Christ, you're obnoxious...

One of the main reasons I am pro-choice is because abortion would still exist, only outlawed. Girls used to stick icepicks and knitting needles between their legs in desperation rather than have their life ruined and their family put to shame by having a child prematurely, for several reasons. In developing countries or where abortion is taboo this happens today.

Heck, I remember watching Dr. Phil a few months ago, where a late-teens girl had stabbed her baby to death out of fear of what their parents and community would do if they found out she had had a child with her first boyfriend. They couldn't arrange an adoption nor an abortion because they were scared shitless of going public with their pregnancy. The boyfriend spent a few hours everyday standing on her stomach to try killing the fetus. >_<

Edited by Mathias, 04 May 2007 - 06:40.

[Dr. Strangelove]

 Vaughan, on 4 May 2007, 03:37, said:

Quote

Once again, it is not just a day of pain, but many other things as well.

Your analogy of a fetus and menrally ill person is inaccurate. how can a fetus lose its life it it never had one in the first place?The fetus has never crawled,eaten,slept, cried or even had a single memory. They can't feel the pain of losing a life if they never had one. Also, a living person has relatives that will cry over his death, people don't cry over dead fetuses because they never knew them. There is a HUGE(!) distinction between an unborn, a newborn, and a mentally ill person.

Yes, but all this assumes that life begins at birth. I believe life begins at conception, at the very beginning of a Human. (Without taking into account the actual sperm process and whatnot, just the point where a woman is considered "Pregnant".)

Does a fetus have memories of doing anything? It never knew what life was ever like outside, nor ever fully aware of what was inside.

[Golan]

Such memories are indeed present even at a high age, though they´re usually not knowingly accesible.

@Mathias
Try to stay away from that "if it was legally regulated"-approach for a moment, then what is your own moral oppinion on this topic?

[Sgt. Rho]

 The Outsider, on 4 May 2007, 01:43, said:

 Leatherneck, on 30 Apr 2007, 00:57, said:

Which they most certainly do not.

I do, and I do very strongly Abortion saves nothing but the mother a small time of pain. But it ends a human life in the process.

Don't say it is just a small time of extreme pain, there are many other things it syas her, to many to mention right now.

then again if:

Abortion=murder

then by that logic

not having sex=murder

refusing to be raped=murder

having ED=murder

Nope. U can´t kill something that doesn´t exist.

[Dr. Strangelove]

This may be a cold, blunt way of putting it but, children are extreme long-term investments that may not fully re-pay themselves financially. Some people after they have had a child cannot bear to give them away, so kiling them before they see them is a more seemly option.

*********************************************************************

@Masterchief:How can you kill something that does not exist? That is what I find as a flaw in your argument. I do not consider a fetus a living human until birth.

@Golan: but can they acess those memories while they are still in the womb?

Edited by The Outsider, 05 May 2007 - 17:42.

[Mathias]

 Golan, on 5 May 2007, 11:32, said:

@Mathias
Try to stay away from that "if it was legally regulated"-approach for a moment, then what is your own moral oppinion on this topic?

"For a moment"? Up until now, I have only discussed the "moral" ramifications of abortion. And I found we're at a standstill.

[Sgt. Rho]

I mean, if you have no sex, there is no fetus, so ou can´t kill it so it isn´t murder.

[CodeCat]

If you don't have sex, millions of sperm die each day for no reason at all.

[Golan]

Sperms don´t carry a full set of human DNA.

[Mathias]

 Master_Chief, on 6 May 2007, 15:18, said:

I mean, if you have no sex, there is no fetus, so ou can´t kill it so it isn´t murder.

If the fetus never develops into an important human being, there is nothing to be lost, so all what-if arguments are bullshit.

Really, the ethic question is just about what you can tolerate. What is best for humanity as a whole, or what is best for your poor sensitive self.

[Whitey]

No, there is something to be lost, a full set of human DNA, thus a life.

Religiously: Abortion is murder.
Scientifically: Abortion goes against the meaning of life.

And the "Children are long term investments, etc" argument has no grounds at least here in teh US. Because you can leave a child at designated facilities ALL OVER the place with no questions asked, not a word spoken. Better for teh child and mother when it comes to emotional and physical pain. So stop bringing up the "cost" of a life.

And yes, Golan, sperms do not carry a full set of DNA and I agree that a full set defines a life. Because with a full set, the thing WILL live (unless hindered by a fatal genetic issue or illness).

[Mathias]

If we aren't able to talk about the value of abortion beyond the philosophical depth then there is no reason for this thread to stay alive, because there is nothing new to discuss anymore. Pro-life wordbombs cannot be countered strictly with philosophical arguments, because life itself is mostly valuable from a philosophical standpoint...

[Zeratul]

I think its the decision of the parents, in some ways it is cruel, but for example i know someone that was pregnant at age 15, and in these cases bringing a child into this world might be more cruel than killing it in a stage where it does not know anything about whats going on. Just a personal opinion.

Greetz,
Zeratul