81 replies to this topic

[Whitey]

If by "nearly", you mean 3 days. There was nothing wrong with the timing of his comment and you had no reason to chime in about it.

[Waris]

Yeah. This thread was just about to become dead, too.

[Wizard]

Necro or no, I have just gotten round to playing this and i must say I am disappointed. I think the point on veterancy is valid. I realise it causes issues with deployment, but I don't see why it was opted for over a couple of units laying prone as opposed to having a unit that ranks up. I just left 3 Machine Gunners by a bridge as the AI sent hundreds of troops over. The Machine Gunners just wiped them out. Not one of the AI troops fired back. Nor did it try and locate the offending slaughterers.

Theses games suck at realism, so the idea of veterancy is a useful tool to attempt to get some life outta them. I fail to see the logic in saying that units wouldn't fire faster etc. They would do. Experience breeds a better anything, including soldiers. So instead of this being an interesting new mod it was just me hotkeying marines every 20 secs as they all died in the melee. Hardly depth of gameplay.

But before anyone gets on their high horse, that was my two penth worth, I have uninstalled it and don't play to play again.

[Kyouko]

You could always add veterency yourself. Its not hard!

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

Yeah, the AI isn't smart. It can't be; there isn't a flexible enough scripting system for it, and I don't have the time to do excellent AI and working game code. Something gets sacrificed, and it's obviously the AI.

Veterancy was excluded because for to have the effect we wanted it would have to be a small benefit - one that in practice wouldn't have much effect at all. Veterancy is often liked in vanilla C&C games because the levelled up units become significantly more powerful ( auto-heal, much higher damage, higher ROF etc ). If we could add interesting abilities, it might have been done, but as it stands there's not really anything of interest to add and it means another load of stuff for the team to balance.

For the record, the prone units do not cause the problem - the only unit that would fail to level up correctly is the M102. Veterancy was not included as a design decision, whether you agree with that or not is up to you. It's something we're thinking about adding in the 1.1 patch due to demand ( becuase apparently the concept of a C&C game without veterancy over here is heracy ), but I'm not at all for it as it's not worth the time and effort of balancing that could be spent on more worthwhile tasks. But you should expect lots of marines to die; they are your cannon fodder. The depth comes in the mixed arms, particularly aircraft and armour use - I don't think you can fairly say it lacks depth because of one feature it lacks.

But hey, I always knew my design was going to split people down the middle like Marmite. To an extent that's what I wanted, because the game is closer to Sudden Strike than C&C and it's a mod so I can afford to get away with what I wouldn't in my job due to this exact division of interest. The community are obsessed with C&C and its clones, and that's fine, but I thought I'd try throwing something totally different into the fray to see what would happen.

Edited by AntiSocialKindaGuy, 25 January 2008 - 09:37.

[Wizard]

I can truly appreciate you wanting to come up with a mod that is slightly different and kudos goes to all for that choice. I wouldn't say veterancy is heracy here. I think perhaps CnC & ZH fans do have a soft spot for it but what struck me in this mod is the fact that I didn't want to go on playing it. I can understand that the AI might not be up to what you or your community wants, let's face it, no AI is, but I got a real sense of a 1 dimensional game when I played. Build units and wait what seemed like an age for your gen points to build up to get the goodies. I would be build one unit then in what is a very disproportionate amount of time they'd be dead. Yeah! realism for sure, especially 'Nam, but I couldn't say that it made for interesting gameplay. The inf selection you guys have put in is great, but because they are all infantry that makes them rather bland weapon delivery systems. Same two legged, easy to maim platforms everytime! Obviously vehicles are a no-no. So it is my view that veterancy would add a dynamic to the game that might help. Coding problems aside.

I honestly felt like why should i build another marine when he's gonna get wtfpwned pretty quick and I buy another 20 after that for more wtfpwnage!?! Veterancy might take that feeling away. A unit that can basically grow it's abilites gives me a reason to keep it alive and play strategically. Yeah it does mean other units get pwned quicker, but even realistically that happens in RL with Rookies versus Vet. Marines!

Yeah, I agree you have captured the feeling of 'Nam! Well done for it to. But perhaps some gameplay was sacrificed along the way? You guys are obviously better placed to know how to play this mod far better than I, but if i can walk up to this one and feel like this, then I wonder how many others maybe to? I know mods aren't about getting everyone involved and being top of the tree in fan base, but some subtle changes could make this mod awesome. IMO anyway.

But hey, the decision is always yours as it's your mod. I just wanted to explain myself just a little better. I hope you guys go on to make the mod you want create and have great success with it!

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

We are toying with interesting veterancy upgrades and ones that add to the gameplay considerably, such as veterans getting grenades for marines, medics healing faster etc. rather than the usual upgrade-to-everything. I didn't include it in the first place because I always hated it as a C&C player - the fact that just because the unit has destroyed a conyard it gets insane skills that allow it to maul anything ( see the insane C&C3 1.09 stealth tank vs entire GDI base with 20+ preds replay to see what I mean ) isn't in any way fun to me. The idea that using micro tactics should win macro tactics in such a situation I find appalling - I want to win because I've made better choices about what to build and where to put it, not because I clicked the deploy button two seconds quicker than my opponent. Personal preference, of course.

The gamplay was very much what I wanted to play - which was Sudden Strike but a bit faster. Hence the long range artillery pieces, the emphasis on scouting, and the fact you can't wade in with tanks. I wanted the "power" units, such as tanks and helis, to be very powerful but very vulnerable - hence your Cobra can rip through a base with no AA in seconds, but one stray redeye will take it out of the fray. Same with vehicles and almost everything else - they all have a specific counter. Helicopters when used correctly are utterly devastating, and thus require that additional balance, and the gen powers aren't supposed to be base killers but like almost everything else, supports.

I do read and take in everything people say; sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't. Many opinions are misinformed because the mod is so different that people don't have the patience to learn and understand it. It's slow to get going, and the heavy units are powerful but expensive, so don't come into play early in the game ( but capture half the villages on a map and you'll see plenty start getting churned out by good players ).

I actually find the mod really fun becuase it's designed to be what I enjoy, which of course isn't everyone's cup of tea, so dramatic changes that break the existing gameplay simply won't happen. But as there seems to be a great push for veterancy, I may well add it as an experiment - the problem lies in the balancing.

We are interested in your comments on veterancy here. Remember you can post a guest too! =)

Edited by AntiSocialKindaGuy, 25 January 2008 - 14:05.

[Wizard]

I think that even on a minor level veterancy would defo add something to this mod. I agree that knocking out a CC is not really the most balanced way to get a boost as it doesn't fight back, and also that the veterancy system already isn't perfect. But some tweaks to incorporate it into your mod would be a plus I think. Instead of higher dmg or reload, then more variety of weapons or range. An experience vet will spot something well ahead of a rookie.

On this same point when you say:

Quote

The idea that using micro tactics should win macro tactics in such a situation I find appalling - I want to win because I've made better choices about what to build and where to put it, not because I clicked the deploy button two seconds quicker than my opponent.

Are you saying that you wanted to get the combination of combat units used in a situation to be able to win over well controlled, perhaps less capable units? So that two Machine Gunners would always be able to pwn say 4-6 standard infantry? If so, I just see that in a more realistic environment such as V|GO this might be a tad too simplistic. Arguably, yes, the Machine Gunners would normally always win, but in RL this isn't always the case. It was my understanding that tactics play a huge role in the outcome of any fire fight or conflict. And microing units is the way to gain tactical advantage. I understand your reasoning, sure, but doesn't this mean, and excuse my extreme lack of gameplay and knowledge of this mod here, that if you build the same groups of units everytime you'll win?? Get the combo right and it's success? If this IS the case then isn't there a certain amount of skill removed from the game? Have I misread your intentions?

Just seen your edit and link I will post something a bit later on there.!

Edited by Wizard, 25 January 2008 - 14:13.

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

The key is the placement. An M60 placed under the cover of foliage will always defeat 6 incoming marines across a bridge. You defeat the problem not through micromanagement of the 6 marines, but by a change of tact entirey, such as sending a transport chopper round the back to drop marines and then charge it from both directions, or use an APC to protect the marines. Thus is it your analysis of the situation at a higher level that has won the day, not by clicking so fast you can avoid each shot of the M60. Of course, splitting your guys into two packs ( or simply charging the poor M60 down ) may also work, but I'd rather you change your strategy entirely to take the position rather than change it subtly and click a bit faster.

[Reaper94]

download - check

install - check

working - epic NOT check

gets a error or somming everytime i click the VGO.exe thing in my directory :(

also

is this game even worth my time? from what i see theres a lot of slagging off of it, bugs, bad econ, units not firing back...

Edited by Über Leet, 25 January 2008 - 17:18.

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

No, it's terrible, don't touch it with a bargepole. I hear it's not Zero Hour with Vietnam skins, and they don't even have veterancy! The economy is awful; you have to actually leave your base to get money (and worse, you don't get more money than you know what to do with) and you can't mass tanks to win! Perhaps worst of all is if you drop your units in a hot LZ they will all die! Oh, and it will lag if you play with lots of AI or even if you run it on full everything on a 9800 Pro.

As for your problem, go to this thread.

[Sharpnessism]

I agree that this mod really, really sucks with AI but it can't really be blamed for that. I've played against a human player though and it was very enjoyable, a lot of different strategies were used. Micro though has pretty much become irrelevant for the majority of units except for a few clicks with vehicles and helis. The mod really gives the different feeling that VZH gives off, in a different way than Contra and VZH are different (Contra is sort of like ZH on LOLWTFZORZ mode). The game play makes it very interesting but SAGE engine looks like it doesn't support the mod very well.

Quote

The idea that using micro tactics should win macro tactics in such a situation I find appalling - I want to win because I've made better choices about what to build and where to put it, not because I clicked the deploy button two seconds quicker than my opponent.

I somewhat agree but in general I think that micro should always be something in games. Putting hard emphasis on marco in most games I've noticed really just generates the "hard to learn-easy to master" while micro usually puts the "easy to learn-hard to master".

Quote

We are toying with interesting veterancy upgrades and ones that add to the gameplay considerably, such as veterans getting grenades for marines, medics healing faster etc. rather than the usual upgrade-to-everything. I didn't include it in the first place because I always hated it as a C&C player - the fact that just because the unit has destroyed a conyard it gets insane skills that allow it to maul anything ( see the insane C&C3 1.09 stealth tank vs entire GDI base with 20+ preds replay to see what I mean ) isn't in any way fun to me. The idea that using micro tactics should win macro tactics in such a situation I find appalling - I want to win because I've made better choices about what to build and where to put it, not because I clicked the deploy button two seconds quicker than my opponent. Personal preference, of course.

Coincidentally, CnC3 is one of the least micro intensive games I've ever played (maybe not in the new patches/expansion) but is more based around marco where you spam units and occasionally think about economy and occasionally change the unit you spam to counter.

Edited by Sharpnessism, 02 February 2008 - 00:06.

[Major Fuckup]

dam i didnt get in to playing it lol i can get it to start maybe i should read the readme or somethin ROLF XD

[Umbrella Secrets]

I hate to say this, I tried the mod and it looked really cool, but it isn't. There is only one army faction, the AI isn't smart, and there is not enough room to build.

[Whitey]

The latter two will be fixed in the upcoming patch.

-L.P. Boidy

[Jok3r]

Exactly. This mod is a massive project. IIRC, they had to completely re-do the AI, and try to avoid scripts. With AI, you mostly have 2 choices (thank you SAGE) Stupid or Slow. Which do you want?
~SLG

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

And here I am again, clearing a few things up.

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There is only one army faction

This has been said from the very beginning that Pegasus will only contain the USA. Remember we have one 3D guy, one cameo guy and one scripter - and we all have jobs, other halves and responsibilities. We have requested help many times, and never received any, so we decided to release Pegasus as it stood rather than leave it another year or two.

Quote

the AI isn't smart

This is impossible to do reasonably. Due to the village system, the script base already needs an hour of adjustments for EVERY MAP, and how it stands it is highly complex - so any changes to the system require every map to be changed. I don't have the time to make it even more complex, and then fiddle with it, and even then it wouldn't understand the concept of cover without many hundreds more scripts. Again, if we had a dedicated scripter to leave me time for the INI work it could be improved, but to get it to understand such a radically different play style is very difficult to do in a reasonable timeframe with a sensible number of scripts. I've rebuilt the AI a good half dozen times to avoid the massive pathfinding lag and to get it to better understand how villages should work.

Quote

and there is not enough room to build.

Depends on the map; there is room enough to build everything easily except the airfield, which requires forward planning but can be done. I will stand by, however, that build spaces are small and I've pointed this out time and time again - but it has reached a point now that to change each map would take too long.

[Pav:3d]

its a pretty enjoyable mod, i realised very quickly it was an inf based game

the village system is great! oh and i love the voice acting for the inf, very good

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

My American accent for the medic is clearly awesome =P

[Kyouko]

Thats you? WOW, I love the voice.

[AntiSocialKindaGuy]

I also did the sniper and one of the artillery calls. I think SC did most of the rest, and a handful were done by X10 before he vanished.

[FiReFTW]

Any military person or someone that likes military will appreaciate more realism , it will make the game more deep and more seeming realistic like you were infact a lieutenant commanding these units , don't think the mod sucks just because some kids don't like more realistic games :chilldead:

[Umbrella Secrets]

I'm a really big military person, I have always liked the military, and I'm even thinking about going in Aero and Space and I'm going to design planes for the furture, I'm only 15 years old and I'm planning, and I like realistic games like Call of Duty 4, Halo 3, etc... I have my opinion about the mod, and that is I don't like it. I think it is a realistic game and all, but I don't like the game play. I never said that the mod sucks.

Edited by U-W-SAtomicarmy, 29 February 2008 - 01:55.

[Ion Cannon!]

Halo 3 Realistic? Sorry but

[Jok3r]

Yeah... I love playing H3, don't get me wrong, but any game were you can take multiple headshots from a sniper rifle at close range........... Call Of Duty 4 on the other hand, is pretty realistic.
~SLG