16 replies to this topic

[Suvorov]

I really think that this whole situation has gone to far. I mean, I guess I really don't understand why this is all happening. From my position, I don't see why Russia needs more land or resources. They're one of the biggest countries in the world. To me, this is reminiscent of, dear I say it, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. Please, post your thoughts on this here, but I do request you follow a few rules:
1. This thread is not intended to offend anyone, so no biased posts.
2. This will probably be closed here soon anyway, considering it does deal with politics, but try to keep personal political beleifs out.
3. Don't put anyone down because of where they live, or what they think.

[Dutchygamer]

I give this thread 1 page before locky strikes here...
Anyways, the only thing I think is that no Western country should get involved into this, nor send 'support' (help with some weapons, yeah right ) to Georgia. This ain't as easy as Afganisthan or Irag, this is Russia you're talking about...
Just my 2 cents...

[retry_1]

you're right about the topic being locked soon. the rules say no politics, and that is one that they actually enforce.

[Suvorov]

I know, but I figured I'd get some people thinking. Hopefully, it will be moved instead of locked, but that's not for me to decide. If we're not careful this could turn into another cold war.

Edited by Suvorov, 30 August 2008 - 16:02.

[Sharpnessism]

South Ossetia wants to become part of Russia (for protection against Georgia), Russia wants more land and resources. Do the math.

Quote

I give this thread 1 page before locky strikes here...
Anyways, the only thing I think is that no Western country should get involved into this, nor send 'support' (help with some weapons, yeah right rolleyes.gif) to Georgia. This ain't as easy as Afganisthan or Irag, this is Russia you're talking about...
Just my 2 cents...

Why would they? It's not like Georgia can take back the land from Russia without direct support. The people of South Ossetia don't want to be part of Georgia, anyone who might of been neutral was probably shifted over to pro-Russia after the decimation of the capital city.

Also if you didn't want this locked you probably shouldn't have compared it to the USSR or Nazi Germany. Or state sth about the cold war.

Edited by Sharpnessism, 30 August 2008 - 16:52.

[Suvorov]

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

[Sharpnessism]

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

If a bigger kid and a few small kids were playing with toys and the bigger kid grabs a few toys, you wouldn't compare that to the annexation of XYZ countries. It isn't a good comparison and it makes people think you just want to flame the actions of the bigger kid.

[Sicarius]

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

[Sharpnessism]

~Doomsday~, on 30 Aug 2008, 15:27, said:

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

If S. Ossetia isn't going to argue against a Russian occupation of their territory for protection, I suspect Russia will indeed stay.

:o

Edited by Sharpnessism, 30 August 2008 - 21:14.

[Eddy01741]

Wait.... i'm not so good on eastern euro geography, so northern ossetia is already in the control of Russia, no? That was what georgia invaded russia for in the first place, no? So now southern Ossetia wants to "secede" and join Russia as well?

Please tell me if i have it all right or wrong.

Anyways, this mmight get a bit political, the last thread about this in teh general discussions got locked for that. The way I see it is that if the citizens of SOuth Ossetia want to join Russia, then they should be able to. If the UN causes too much pressure on Russia to back out, then the citizens in South Ossetia are not going to be liked by the Georgian government......

This reminds me, the only reason taht we have situations like iraq (for the US gulf war II) and afghanistan (for russia) is because with the UN and pressure from countries to not invade other countries, they cannot kill civilians willingly. In WWII, if Germany took over a part of france that had lots of rebels (well, people that would form militias and fight back), then Germany would just bomb the shit out of some of them and the rest would probably settle down. Now we are forced to fight insurgents on their own terms, as if we were to start carpet bombing parts of iraq just to put down insurgents, UN would kill us.

[Sicarius]

Sharpnessism, on 30 Aug 2008, 13:46, said:

If S. Ossetia isn't going to argue against a Russian occupation of their territory for protection, I suspect Russia will indeed stay.

:o

I guess. :O
But do you think they actually need to? Georgia's military is pretty much gone, and the entire region is small; it wouldn't take long for Russia to respond to someone threatening S. Ossetia (if anyone is stupid enough to try again)>_<

Eddy01741, on 30 Aug 2008, 22:19, said:

Wait.... i'm not so good on eastern euro geography, so northern ossetia is already in the control of Russia, no? That was what georgia invaded russia for in the first place, no? So now southern Ossetia wants to "secede" and join Russia as well?

Please tell me if i have it all right or wrong.

You are partially right; N. Ossetia is part of Russia and has been for awhile, but that is not what Georgia attacked. S. Ossetia is a region of Georgia; they were the ones that got attacked by Georgia, apparently in response to S.O. separatist artillery attacks (they claim).

Edited by ~Doomsday~, 31 August 2008 - 06:12.

[Sharpnessism]

Eddy01741, on 31 Aug 2008, 0:19, said:

This reminds me, the only reason taht we have situations like iraq (for the US gulf war II) and afghanistan (for russia) is because with the UN and pressure from countries to not invade other countries, they cannot kill civilians willingly. In WWII, if Germany took over a part of france that had lots of rebels (well, people that would form militias and fight back), then Germany would just bomb the shit out of some of them and the rest would probably settle down. Now we are forced to fight insurgents on their own terms, as if we were to start carpet bombing parts of iraq just to put down insurgents, UN would kill us.

Killing everyone is a lot easier than picking out 1 terrorist from 10 civilians and trying to avoid killing the civilians. Carpetbombing parts of Iraq probably wouldn't solve much. I mean, it'd kill the insurgents but there are always other countries and they are entirely replaceable so it isn't feasible. Back then it was a World War, which meant that if you carpet bombed everywhere, the allies of the country were already at war with you. Plus the enemy would do the same to you if they didn't already.

[Razven]

~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.

Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan

[Sharpnessism]

Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:

~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.

Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan

Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.

The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had pervious plans.

[Dauth]

While parts of ES are under review, politics is still against the rules. I will commend the behaviour in this thread and will not lock it. I suggest that if you wish to continue this thread that you should discuss the humanitarian problems without mentioning (or referring to) individual states.

[Razven]

Sharpnessism, on 31 Aug 2008, 23:56, said:

Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:

~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.

Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan

Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.

The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had previous plans.

A few shells are not 'leveling a city', I have sources indicating anything from a few dozen shells to near a thousand. Even if it is, it still does not warrant foreign aggression, since even if the city was leveled, it would still be an internal affairs issue of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia knew Russia was looking into that region for a long time, it was due to rebels in S. Ossetia 'somehow' managing to acquire artillery to shell Georgia proper around S. Ossetia that Georgia sent tanks into the capital city of S. Ossetia, which somehow turned into a Russian affair, which it should not have been.

Even if the civilian death rate was close to a thousand, it still won't be as horrible as say, Darfur.

[Dauth]

Dauth, on 31 Aug 2008, 17:40, said:

While parts of ES are under review, politics is still against the rules. I will commend the behaviour in this thread and will not lock it. I suggest that if you wish to continue this thread that you should discuss the humanitarian problems without mentioning (or referring to) individual states.

Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 17:59, said:

Sharpnessism, on 31 Aug 2008, 23:56, said:

Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:

~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:

Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not comparing the governments. I'm comparing the way they are targeting their neighbors for additional resources. I could almost compare it to the american "Manifest Destiny" idea, too.

They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.

Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.

What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.

Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan

Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.

The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had previous plans.

A few shells are not 'leveling a city', I have sources indicating anything from a few dozen shells to near a thousand. Even if it is, it still does not warrant foreign aggression, since even if the city was leveled, it would still be an internal affairs issue of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia knew Russia was looking into that region for a long time, it was due to rebels in S. Ossetia 'somehow' managing to acquire artillery to shell Georgia proper around S. Ossetia that Georgia sent tanks into the capital city of S. Ossetia, which somehow turned into a Russian affair, which it should not have been.

Even if the civilian death rate was close to a thousand, it still won't be as horrible as say, Darfur.

*Sigh*