68 replies to this topic

[Alias]

Some of you will hate me for this, some of you will love me and some of you won't care. As community leader, I cater to all of your with this so I will happily discuss and accept points from any people that disagree. Now, onto business.
As we all have probably realised, this thread has been a divider between different forum members for a while now. One of my goals as community leader is to bring everyone together in unity. This thread dividing members is not its only problem, however.

I ask you now, do you think this thread has gone "too far", or is it fine? Here are some points for keeping the thread, and points against keeping the thread.

POINTS FOR:

• Could be said to provide an easily accessible form of communication between members.
  
• Allows members to meet new people.

POINTS AGAINST:

• Too spammy - most posts are just two letters or half a sentence and rarely relate to anything significant.
  
• Continuing the point above, most of the stuff posted would be better kept in the IRC or said via MSN.
  
• Unproductive - the thread distracts a number of members of the moderating team from their set job.
  
• Drain on the forum resources - the more and more posts the server has to receive, send and store stresses the server. These resources could be better spent on productive posts.
  
• Pointless. The thread has no backing to it other than the fact you have to post last (thus unless the thread is locked it will never truly end). Most other things posted in the SYD have at least some backstory behind them and require some thinking to post in.
  
• Breaks the rules to a certain extent.
  
• Counterpoints to the "for" points - the communication and meeting can be easily done through other mediums, such as MSN, IRC, PM or even in a game played online.

I personally believe the thread is a haven for pointlessness, and it handicaps some staff from doing their jobs. I personally believe it should be either locked, or patrolled MUCH more stricter than it currently is (complete rebuild of the goal of the thread encouraging thought into productive posts).
Feel free to build on these points, or to discuss. Please only discuss if you have something productive to add.

~ Alias
Your friendly neighbourhood Community Leader.


EDIT: POLL REMOVED.
If you want to keep the thread, give me reasons WHY.

Edited by Alias, 06 October 2008 - 09:55.

[Izzy]

I don't think it's that bad imo

[Alias]

 Izzy, on 6 Oct 2008, 19:41, said:

I don't think it's that bad imo

In what way do you think it is beneficial, then?

[Waris]

For me the LPTPW thread has lost its novelty after a week, and I couldn't justify wasting my time posting nosenses or keeping up with the whole thing.

[Ion Cannon!]

Its pointless but harmless, I don't see a problem with it myself.

[Alias]

 Insomniac!, on 6 Oct 2008, 19:44, said:

Its pointless but harmless, I don't see a problem with it myself.

So I guess a number of staff not doing their job is "harmless"?
If they are just going to spend all their time in there I see no point in them having their position. Cue the "State of Administration" threads.

[Dauth]

LPTPW is a thread which splits the moderating team down the middle. I'm glad you've brought it up. The case or more patrolling is hard to make for a single thread in Serial Spammers, which is where you might run into trouble.

[Wizard]

As Dauth said this has been a contraversial topic between the moderators. I will remain neutral on this, but those who have discussed it know my position.

[MR.Kim]

After I spent many posts with "Last Person to Post Wins", I don't see any problems.

Because, I enjoy this with fun jokes.

Edited by MR.Kim, 06 October 2008 - 09:03.

[Warbz]

All it needs is for someone to lock it and then it's finished. I don't think it'd be too much fuss, though it would be like the end of an era.

[Dauth]

No one in the moderating team has any intention of locking it (We cba with the inevitable fallout from that), what we would like to see is a higher quality of posts.

[CommanderJB]

We had this discussion a short while ago and I think it would be simplest to quote myself here:

Quote

I think there's one simple question which this debate should boil down to: What harm does this thread do? If it does no harm, does not adversely affect any other area of the forum, then what reason have we to take it down?
I'd argue it's practically the cultural beating heart of the board, a simple area for people to spam without any inhbitions, and has been this way since its inception; it hardly has any more point now than before because the whole purpose of the thread is that it has no point. Far from encouraging people to make intelligent posts if their ability to make unintelligent ones is denied, all you'd see is it either being reopened or the spam spreading elsewhere.
LPTPW is not an area where you'll find intelligence or a purpose, so why bother looking for one? It harms nothing, it's given rise to several of the community's key cultural devices and it's effectively no different now than it's ever been, irrespective of the direction of the posts in the thread. I can understand that it has absolutely no reason to exist whatsoever, but it has no reason not to exist, and closing it would do harm without any good to replace it.

I can see where you're coming from with the argument that it distracts moderators, and certainly it can't be argued that some do spend a lot of time in there, as the Wiki page amply states, but I can't agree that it stops them from doing their job. As I said above just because you make useless posts somewhere doesn't automatically mean you're not making useful posts somewhere else.
Also I'd have to get someone like CodeCat to answer but I don't notice any difference in the forum's responsiveness when I poke my head in LPTPW, and don't personally imagine it would prove a serious drain on server resources; but as I said this is an uninformed impression and I would be happy to be disabused of it upon the release of information to the contrary.

Edited by CommanderJB, 06 October 2008 - 09:20.

[Alias]

 CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

I think there's one simple question which this debate should boil down to: What harm does this thread do? If it does no harm, does not adversely affect any other area of the forum, then what reason have we to take it down?

What harm does it do?
It prevents multiple staff (as with the other thread this is an interchangeable term for all of the moderating team) from doing their assigned job, which is keeping the forums nice and tidy. If these staff are spending 95% of their forum time spamming (I have proof), what kind of example does that give out to members of the lower classes? It gives out a very bad example. I'd call that a very adverse effect.

 CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

I'd argue it's practically the cultural beating heart of the board, a simple area for people to spam without any inhbitions, and has been this way since its inception; it hardly has any more point now than before because the whole purpose of the thread is that it has no point.

Cultural beating heart? Do people join these boards because of the Last Person to Post Wins thread? No, they don't. They join primarily for the modifications, hence I'd argue that modifications are the cultural beating heart of the board. If the thread has no point, then why is it still open?! Seems a bit hypocritical there.

 CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

Far from encouraging people to make intelligent posts if their ability to make unintelligent ones is denied, all you'd see is it either being reopened or the spam spreading elsewhere.

That's the point, if intelligent posts are discouraged, that means you are effectively dumbing down the population. Is that a good thing? I'd say no.

 CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

LPTPW is not an area where you'll find intelligence or a purpose, so why bother looking for one? It harms nothing, it's given rise to several of the community's key cultural devices and it's effectively no different now than it's ever been, irrespective of the direction of the posts in the thread. I can understand that it has absolutely no reason to exist whatsoever, but it has no reason not to exist, and closing it would do harm without any good to replace it.

As I've mentioned in the opening posts and in other parts of this post, it does do harm. I understand your point that if people don't have the thread to do it in, where will they do it? I said in the opening post, use MSN or IRC. This is a discussion forum, not a chatroom.

[TheDR]

 Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 9:29, said:

POINTS AGAINST:

• Too spammy - most posts are just two letters or half a sentence and rarely relate to anything significant.
  Why is that a problem? its not like its in a forum which has spam in its name..
  
• Continuing the point above, most of the stuff posted would be better kept in the IRC or said via MSN.
  Why? Personal hatred for the thread?
  
• Unproductive - the thread distracts a number of members of the moderating team from their set job.
  Its one of the reasons im on the forum all day, a few days ago i cleared up a few spam bots and i was the only mod on.
  
• Drain on the forum resources - the more and more posts the server has to receive, send and store stresses the server. These resources could be better spent on productive posts.
  If it is such a drain on the forum resources it would of died along time ago.
  
• Pointless. The thread has no backing to it other than the fact you have to post last (thus unless the thread is locked it will never truly end). Most other things posted in the SYD have at least some backstory behind them and require some thinking to post in.
  Maybe its because people enjoy being random, maybe the thread is just for fun.
  
• Breaks the rules to a certain extent.
  If the thread was new then i would give you that, but its years old now.
  
• Counterpoints to the "for" points - the communication and meeting can be easily done through other mediums, such as MSN, IRC, PM or even in a game played online.
  Why is meeting people in that thread so different to MSN or IRC?

That's my view, Its a thread which is part of the forum, hate it? then leave it alone but don't attack it.

[Alias]

 The Dr, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:35, said:

 Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 9:29, said:

POINTS AGAINST:

• Too spammy - most posts are just two letters or half a sentence and rarely relate to anything significant.
  1. Why is that a problem? its not like its in a forum which has spam in its name..
  
• Continuing the point above, most of the stuff posted would be better kept in the IRC or said via MSN.
  2. Why? Personal hatred for the thread?
  
• Unproductive - the thread distracts a number of members of the moderating team from their set job.
  3. Its one of the reasons im on the forum all day, a few days ago i cleared up a few spam bots and i was the only mod on.
  
• Drain on the forum resources - the more and more posts the server has to receive, send and store stresses the server. These resources could be better spent on productive posts.
  4. If it is such a drain on the forum resources it would of died along time ago.
  
• Pointless. The thread has no backing to it other than the fact you have to post last (thus unless the thread is locked it will never truly end). Most other things posted in the SYD have at least some backstory behind them and require some thinking to post in.
  5. Maybe its because people enjoy being random, maybe the thread is just for fun.
  
• Breaks the rules to a certain extent.
  6. If the thread was new then i would give you that, but its years old now.
  
• Counterpoints to the "for" points - the communication and meeting can be easily done through other mediums, such as MSN, IRC, PM or even in a game played online.
  7. Why is meeting people in that thread so different to MSN or IRC?

Numbered for convenience.

• It's a problem because as the rules say... "even spam has it's limits". Countless threads have been locked before for being mindless spam, why not this?
  
• Not personal hatred, but public disinterest. I'm sure the people who would care if you just went to bed or just got up would've taken notice of you in the online members section. This, as well as "D:" or "LOL" spam does not help the board whatsoever in any form possible, hence it is better kept on an outside medium, such as MSN/IRC.
  
• If posting in a spam thread is the main reason you are online on this forum, why are you staff? A staff member should be regularly active in almost all areas of the forum.
  
• Why exactly? Running the marathon makes you tired but it certainly doesn't kill you. You wouldn't run a marathon every day, would you? For those inept of the way of the metaphor; the thread drains the resources of the board, it may not disable the server, but it certainly stresses both the server and the connection.
  
• Be random in MSN, it serves no point in a discussion board.
  
• When the thread was new it actually abided by the rules, people actually posted thought out posts.
  
• See the points above. Meeting on MSN/IRC does not waste forum resources, it is far less likely to distract you from doing your job and it will certainly not annoy others.

[Waris]

 The Dr, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:05, said:

• Unproductive - the thread distracts a number of members of the moderating team from their set job.
  Its one of the reasons im on the forum all day, a few days ago i cleared up a few spam bots and i was the only mod on.

The main reason why you should be on this forum often should because of the badge written 'Global Moderator' that you wear, don't you think? Excuse me but it's lame to reason the existence of a pointless spam thread as to why you should spend you time here, especially with the title and responsibility you're holding.

Edited by Waris, 06 October 2008 - 10:05.

[Libains]

As it stands, I personally see no adverse effect from this forum either. I poke my head in from time to time, and it is certainly an area for people to 'let go' a bit, and doesn't have any adverse effect on anything outside of the thread. True, it's a spammy thread, and the posts are inevitably rubbish or just plain gibberish, but that's the way it's supposed to be. As to server resources, from my point of view it surely can't do it much harm, but as CommanderJB has said, it would be nice to hear from an expert eg. jnengland or CodeCat on this matter. Furthermore, one of your arguements is that it is a drain on resources of the staff. To this day, I have yet to see an incident appear in the thread that has required staff intervention - while it is spammy, it is only spam - there's no malice or intent behind it. As such, if you feel it is a drain on moderating resources, then simply bring that up with the moderating team and have them spend less time there. I will agree, however, that it possibly needs a bit of a quality upgrade, but not a shutdown.

[Ion Cannon!]

 Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 9:53, said:

 Insomniac!, on 6 Oct 2008, 19:44, said:

Its pointless but harmless, I don't see a problem with it myself.

So I guess a number of staff not doing their job is "harmless"?
If they are just going to spend all their time in there I see no point in them having their position. Cue the "State of Administration" threads.

Its harmless in nature, if certain members of the moderating team decide to spend all of their time there instead of doing they're job they should be demoted if the behavior continues. Some staff members do indeed spend alot of their time there, others do not. I don't think overall moderation is affected, but the amount of moderating some staff members do is more than others without a doubt. You also have to consider the work some do behind the scenes, Bob's blue FS skin for example.

Although I don't really see a problem with it, I wouldn't care if it went. I would love more intelligent threads on this forum with actual meaning.

Edited by Insomniac!, 06 October 2008 - 10:12.

[Wizard]

This thread is about TLPTPWs thread and not moderators.

[Dutchygamer]

Well, it's harder to lock it and keep looking for random spammy topics then keeping this one open so everyone can spam whatever he/she wants (up to a certain level). I'd say we keep it open...

[Alias]

 Dutchygamer, on 6 Oct 2008, 21:50, said:

Well, it's harder to lock it and keep looking for random spammy topics then keeping this one open so everyone can spam whatever he/she wants (up to a certain level). I'd say we keep it open...

On the other side of the argument I can say that the time some of the staff waste in there could be used for something useful to the forum, such as watching out for these "spammy topics".

Edited by Alias, 06 October 2008 - 10:59.

[Mbob61]

With many active members on here i think there needs to be a place where people can spam without there being any ramifications to it. If it was removed people would find somewhere else to spam or integrate the spam into their normal posts which is not good for the forum.
You cannot use the point that the moderating team spend all their time spamming away in this thread as a negative to the thread. Two words, willpower and responsibility.
if you think they are not using their time "productively" enough the politely ask them to stop spamming away. If not then don't moan about it.
My final point is what is the point of this forum? You talk to productivity and responsibilities as if this was some kind of multi million pound organization. This is a Casual, fun gaming forum. Lets keep it that way eh.?

Edited by mbob61, 06 October 2008 - 11:07.

[Wizard]

Alias this thread should be about TLPTPW and the quality of the content, not who posts there. We are all entitled to post where we like.

As for spammy threads, they are taken care of.

[Dauth]

 Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 9:29, said:

EDIT: POLL REMOVED.
If you want to keep the thread, give me reasons WHY.

The CL role is not official, you are not in a position to make demands like that and I strongly suggest you rethink statements of that style.
I think a poll would have been the ideal manner to get the public's opinion and am interested as to your reasons for removing it.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that threads like this which force arguments cause more damage that good?

[Alias]

 Dauth, on 6 Oct 2008, 22:25, said:

 Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 9:29, said:

EDIT: POLL REMOVED.
If you want to keep the thread, give me reasons WHY.

The CL role is not official, you are not in a position to make demands like that and I strongly suggest you rethink statements of that style.
I think a poll would have been the ideal manner to get the public's opinion and am interested as to your reasons for removing it.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that threads like this which force arguments cause more damage that good?

I know it is not official, but I am the thread starter.
I removed the poll as there was multiple people who voted without posting. I would much rather them posting the reasons for keeping than to just vote and leave, it makes for a much more even comparison.

Technically this is still a poll - but it is a written one.

Edited by Alias, 06 October 2008 - 11:29.