48 replies to this topic

[Dauth]

I am going to say very little other than I support the separation of the Church and the State. In secular nations it is a necessity, or you lose the base of being secular.

[Cryptkeeper]

I support it as well it keeps belief systems that maybe not everyone shares from interfering in the chooses of others who do not share similar belief systems

[Warbz]

Religion has done nothing but hinder development and outcasted scapegoats in order to achieve whatever it's closed minded leaders desired.

IIRC correctly there was 80 decades where no scientific advancement was made as religious leaders outcast scientists as witches and wizards etc. during the Dark Ages.

[Chyros]

IMO strict separation is a must, and I oppose all confessional parties that want to merge state and church. If you take comfort in religion, by all means worship some deity, but religious groups in power are responsible for most of the darkest pages in history. Which is also partly why I'm a firm atheist (the other part is of course that nothing indicates the presence of a deity whatsoever) - there are actually few good things that have come from religion, especially when compared to the incomprehensible suffering it has caused worldwide.

[The Wandering Jew]

Religion mixed with politics is as bad as science mixed with politics and religion mixed with science. One cannot choose among Tweedledum, Tweedledee, and Twoodledoo. Thus it has to be strictly separated.

Remember the Crusades, gentlemen.


Info:

In our country, religion is politics masquerading in the name of God. One cannot deny that the Church minds State affairs, from contraceptives to the way how a government should be run.

That's the reason why we have Noli Me Tangere and El Filibusterismo, but still, we have this Medieval policy.

[Soul]

I also support the separation, religion only causes trouble for people when it's mixed with politics anyway for obvious reasons.

[BeefJeRKy]

Unfortunately, politics and religion are far too deeply intertwined in Lebanon. Almost every party represents a different sect of religion. ie. Hezbollah and AMAL represent the Shiite muslims, Hariri's Future movement represents the majority of the Sunnis, Maronite Christians are split between the Lebanese Free Patriotic Movement (a supposedly secular party because it includes some Shiite muslims as well as Greek Orthodox Christians), the Lebanese Forces Party, the Phalangist party, the Lebanese National Liberal party, and the Marada Brigade) and the Druze generally follow the Progressive Socialist Party. Sadly, none of these parties has an actual agenda. There is even a communist party in name only. Pretty much each party represents each sect and changes allegiances at each election according to peoples' conveniences etc... And it gets even more complicated :S

It's pretty sad if you ask me because my country has the potential to be a truly shining example of democracy's superior capability for religious tolerance but there is too much hate. That is why Religion and Politics must be inherently separate.

[Dr. Strangelove]

The government should be so small it really wouldn't matter whether or not it has ties to the church.

[Rayburn]

I fully support the separation of state and church. The alternative is medieval which stands for the darkest time of human history. I'd even go as far as banning organised religion all together. No religion should be endorsed, let alone favoured, by the state; they all have to be ignored equally. If someone wants to be religious, let them, but don't allow them to get organised as a group. Up until a few years ago, I would have thought differently but today, I've come to the conclusion that religion is the biggest millstone around the neck of mankind. Religious dogmatism is responsible for more death and calamity than any ideology. On top of that, it also blurs and skews one's vision, not only of the world, but of the entire universe.

Edited by Rayburn, 07 November 2008 - 06:44.

[Eddy01741]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."-Karl Marx

Basically, I fully support seperation of church and state. Yes, religion does provide good basic ideals, but it is preventing us from advancing now, we're still caught up on stuff like stem cell research because religious people don't think it's humane to test with embryos. The only good thing I see religion for was back in the medieval days, when it brought more order to the world, the basic values that religion brought us allowed us to work together, but is now limiting us.

[The Wandering Jew]

Eddy01741, on 10 Nov 2008, 8:35, said:

.... The only good thing I see religion for was back in the medieval days, when it brought more order to the world, the basic values that religion brought us allowed us to work together, but is now limiting us.

That's because some world governments allow religions to meddle in state affairs (a hang-over from Pope Clement XVI?). It's either give them full power or none at all.

[Chyros]

Eddy01741, on 10 Nov 2008, 2:35, said:

The only good thing I see religion for was back in the medieval days, when it brought more order to the world, the basic values that religion brought us allowed us to work together

And allowed us to murder each other, ask forgiveness, and do it again. Or, for those who were clever, allowed us to kill someone by just calling them a heretic in public. Or allowed us to go on religious genocides without anyone objecting. You could literally pay off the church to forgive your crimes.

Even in, perhaps especially in the Medieval days, was religion one of the most unthinkably despicable things ever practiced IMO.

Edited by Chyros, 10 November 2008 - 06:56.

[The Wandering Jew]

Chyros, on 10 Nov 2008, 14:51, said:

...And allowed us to murder each other, ask forgiveness, and do it again. Or, for those who were clever, allowed us to kill someone by just calling them a heretic in public. Or allowed us to go on religious genocides without anyone objecting. You could literally pay off the church to forgive your crimes.

Even in, perhaps especially in the Medieval days, was religion one of the most unthinkably despicable things ever practiced IMO.

Are you thinking of the Salem trials? Or worse, the Spanish Inquisition? (no offense to Spain and her citizens, but it is a recorded historical event)

[Alias]

I am a strong supporter of the separation of church and the state. Religion is a matter between the individual and the God(s), and it should always stay this way.

The Wandering Jew, on 10 Nov 2008, 21:25, said:

Chyros, on 10 Nov 2008, 14:51, said:

...And allowed us to murder each other, ask forgiveness, and do it again. Or, for those who were clever, allowed us to kill someone by just calling them a heretic in public. Or allowed us to go on religious genocides without anyone objecting. You could literally pay off the church to forgive your crimes.

Even in, perhaps especially in the Medieval days, was religion one of the most unthinkably despicable things ever practiced IMO.

Are you thinking of the Salem trials? Or worse, the Spanish Inquisition? (no offense to Spain and her citizens, but it is a recorded historical event)

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!


Sorry, but it HAD to be done.

[The Wandering Jew]

@^:
Have I commited a no-no? If then, my apologies.

[CommanderJB]

Not at all. You need to watch Monty Python's Flying Circus, however.

Edited by CommanderJB, 10 November 2008 - 11:12.

[Eddy01741]

Chyros, on 10 Nov 2008, 1:51, said:

Eddy01741, on 10 Nov 2008, 2:35, said:

The only good thing I see religion for was back in the medieval days, when it brought more order to the world, the basic values that religion brought us allowed us to work together

And allowed us to murder each other, ask forgiveness, and do it again. Or, for those who were clever, allowed us to kill someone by just calling them a heretic in public. Or allowed us to go on religious genocides without anyone objecting. You could literally pay off the church to forgive your crimes.

Even in, perhaps especially in the Medieval days, was religion one of the most unthinkably despicable things ever practiced IMO.

It is true that every major war has had religion as a major factor in it, however, religion did bring basic morals to human beings and at least united them in some way.

And for the record, i'm an atheist/agnostic.

[Zero]

Quote

religion did bring basic morals to human beings and at least united them in some way.

What are you saying? Things like you can't kill or you can't steal are basic common sense. The Babylonians came up with their code of laws (although I'm not sure if this had to do with religion). A LOT of the laws in existence are COMMON SENSE, believe it or not. If you give me one (good) law, I can explain to you how it is part of common sense. Actually, save for the three, even the Ten Commandments come from common sense.

[Dauth]

Common sense is not an argument I think can be used here, common sense like fashion is a collective delusion. I have no problem saying that a lot of the rules in the UK are as a result of the Church's involvement in the past, but the past is where it belongs now. We don't need the Church.

A better argument is enlightened self interest, since that way people take a long term view for their actions.

[Zero]

Dauth, on 18 Nov 2008, 17:52, said:

Common sense is not an argument I think can be used here, common sense like fashion is a collective delusion. I have no problem saying that a lot of the rules in the UK are as a result of the Church's involvement in the past, but the past is where it belongs now. We don't need the Church.

A better argument is enlightened self interest, since that way people take a long term view for their actions.

I see your point... okay, then let me restate it: A lot of laws are based on what should be-more or less- common values. For example: Killing/Stealing. Things like those are well.... not accepted no matter what. The thing is, a lot of those laws that we thank religion for creating are just... for the mot part, they are things that kind of stand out, taking a life is wrong, and taking something that is not yours is not acceptable for most reasons. So, although it may sound like the same as what I said before, all I'm trying to say is that those things are really just common knowledge;

An addition to what Lelouch said: "The only ones who should be allowed to shoot are those ready to be shot." That's kind of how the law works, at least I think so. In other words, I think that thats what it means, that if you kill someone, it will (indirectly, more likely than not) start a chain of events that may never end. That and instinct: By instinct we don't want to die, we don't want our food/territory (although now possessions) or mates stolen, so we came up with laws so that it doesn't happen.

[EX-P.F.C. Wintergreen]

First off, I am whole heartedly for the separation. I hate the idea of forcing relgion or its beliefs upon other people. That being said, I don't like missionaries and I don't even like it when my own church (that of which I rarely attend (borderline athiest)) goes door to door with fliers.

The separation of church and state must be in place because it allows for secular neutrality and avoids filibusters in congresses and parliments all over about which bible/quoran(sp)/torah/w/e to use as law.

People say they base their principles on religion and thats more okay with me as long as you don't use it as a justficiation for a new law or w/e

T_B

[Zero]

The Basilisk, on 19 Nov 2008, 21:36, said:

People say they base their principles on religion and thats more okay with me as long as you don't use it as a justficiation for a new law or w/e
T_B

The thing is, however, that if you're a country, you can't really use religion even to base a moral code. For example, in front of some courts (I think the US Supreme Court is one) there are statues of the 10 commandments, ALL of them, not just the 7 moral ones. Also, to make matters worst, like 3/4 of what America has has to do with the Christian fate (one nation under god; god-given rights in declaration; so on and so on). The worst part of this all, however, is that we preach that we don't care about religion, when in fact we do... If you put up a Muslim candidate against a Christian candidate, I'm sorry to say that the poor guy's pretty much screwed (at most, an 80% chance of winning), and look at how many Catholic presidents we've had, or presidents who aren't from a Protestant denomination... religion DOES matter, we just give you the choice to pick your own and even then we'll persecute you for it (look at our airports or who gets their phones tapped)...

And WORST of all, we even do things in THE NAME of god, such as: one of Bush's justifications for the Iraq War was... wait for it.... "God told me to do it!" GOD DAMN IT!!!!! What we need to do is to eliminate religion from politics, we need to stop putting religious figures in front of our courts and even the public schools which are supposed to be neutral are-for the most part-.... CHRISTIAN!! The only problem is that right after themselves, the only things the greedy bastards at Washington seem to care about is their religion (probably because it helps their own image). I'm sorry, but that's just the truth of it all.

[Alias]

You need to realise that they have as much freedom and right to follow a religion as you do to not follow one.

[Zero]

Alias, on 21 Nov 2008, 23:50, said:

You need to realise that they have as much freedom and right to follow a religion as you do to not follow one.

I'm not saying its wrong to follow one, its just that it irritates me that as a nation, we are so bias and that even the COURTS (which as a part of the federal system) should not show bias. Also, I think that no one should be able to go up and say "God did it" to defend his views, although then again, that would infringe on freedom of speech.... sometimes stupidity can hurt the whole world, eh?

[EX-P.F.C. Wintergreen]

Little by little courts are removing them (finally). There was a big problem in Utah I think about a court removing it and the Mormons went crazy about it. Its a slow process because the US is so secular. Its hard to say that we aren't when so many people were hollering "Obama is a muslim!!!" like its a bad thing a reason not to vote for him...Its a shame. Honestly, I love my country but I kinda wish I lived in Europe