23 replies to this topic

[Shirou]

The direct reason I am making this topic I will explain in a moment. It is mainly meant as a discussion, spoken with general examples, rather than a discussion of my own little case of this. I have been deepening in on some of those Pro-Ana sites and weblogs and I have become increasingly shocked. It is utterly disgusting how these girls are venerating the experience of feeling their bones without any flesh attached to it, and seeing the circumference of their stomach as a symbol of prestige.

You can see it everywhere, models that are so thin that I am assured that if you'd see one of them walking in the supermarket with skinny clothes, you may just as well be deterred from such ''beauty's''. I myself have noticed as well a certain disgust from females who have absolutely no way of distinguishing their bottom from their legs & chest in terms of circumference, yet it is still what is perceived as perfection by the media of popular culture and via that link as well as young girls through that medium.

What just makes me so angry is that nobody who is responsible for such media even takes into account it's influence on teenage girls who are of course never as ''perfect'' as the models they use. Is there ever any fix for this mental disease, because that's what his Pro-ana movement is, when the causes are just going to remain.

Now, the reason I made this topic because someone very dear to me I am suspecting of visiting these sites, as her MSN is frequently showing quotations who I then link back to the next Anorexia worshipping weblog or website. I'm not going to give a link to those sites here, but below is an example of how far these things can go:

Quote

The Thin Commandments

If you aren't thin, you aren't attractive.

Being thin is more important than being healthy.

You must buy clothes, cut your hair, take laxatives, starve yourself, do anything to make yourself look thinner.

Thou shall not eat without feeling guilty.

Thou shall not eat fattening food without punishing oneself afterwards.

Thou shall count calories and restrict intake accordingly.

What the scale says is the most important thing.

Losing weight is good/ gaining weight is bad.

You can never be too thin.

Being thin and not eating are signs of true will power and success.

And it is that number three that my dearest is currently seemingly adhering herself to, and I feel powerless in doing anything about it.

[G-sus]

this is very shocking indeed.
although this is going on for a while now, the numbers are increasing every day.
anorexia indeed is a mental disease, its like an addiction for most of these girls.
so although i dont wanna worry you too much i´m gonna be blunt about it:
this is a serious disease (my mother is a psychologist, and knew a girl who died of that, since her parents refused to take her to hospital, "if she doesnt wanna eat, then just let her..."),
and almost all cases wont resolve "by itself".
what i´d recommend for you is trying to reason with them (what tbh, wont help anything but you gotta try), and then get in contact to their parents/other responsible persons ect.
since as you said they could be in that kinda deep, treatment in a hospital/therapy may be the only way, since this is really serious, and normally they wont be able to help themselves anymore.
the earlier treatment begins, the less probable are permanent damages for the body, mind, and the recovery will be more easy. (its not really going to be easy at all...)


sites like that can be legally closed in many countries, but as we know the web is big and deep...
i take it that these sites though are more or less "just attracting who´s gonna go that way anyway", but what they definately do is making things worse a lot, for everyone who follows them.

Edited by G-sus, 01 May 2009 - 21:07.

[Whitey]

Thou shall not be such a moron as to listen to that list of bollocks.
Moreover, anorexics are ugly.

-Rorschach

[Wizard]

Rorschach, on 1 May 2009, 22:22, said:

Thou shall not be such a moron as to listen to that list of bollocks.
Moreover, anorexics are ugly.

-Rorschach

That as to be one of the worst and most fundamentally cruel statements I have ever heard and I am actually sickened by it. I really cannot begin to tell you how actually disgusted I am right now.

How would you feel if I made a statement that said Albinos are ugly? Anorexia is genuine condition, one that several of my friends have battled with for many years. Statements like your shows ignorance of the condition and the last one show just how poor a human being you are.

Edited by Wizard, 01 May 2009 - 21:33.

[Shirou]

Rorschach, on 1 May 2009, 23:22, said:

Thou shall not be such a moron as to listen to that list of bollocks.
Moreover, anorexics are ugly.

-Rorschach

OH wow yay thanks man for your extremely supportive and constructive argument.

Now bug off.

[Whitey]

Anorexia is not a genetic disorder. It's a way of life brought about by adherence to media influence. I would put it on par with the idea of smokers having bad breath.

Perhaps my understanding of anorexia is flawed. If so, I retract that statement. But that was not how I was taught.

-Rorschach

[G-sus]

as much as its wrong to say, but rorschach is right. 100% right even.
yes, anorexia isnt a genetic disorder, or something that you have from birth and "you have to live your life that way".
its a mental disease that can affect you, and it can be cured.
sure, they are not to blame for being ill that way, but its nothing that can be tolerated or supported in any way, and those beings affected need help.
and yes, they are ugly. ever seen a woman who´se upper arm isnt thicker than twice your thumb? who has problems climbing stairs, even one by one?
people die from that.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Here is my argument against Ana and Mia: the sisters of starvation.

So we've all seen the pictures of some super-model on the cat walk, her clothes barely held up or quite simply, appearing as if they're just draped over her. She is also bone thin, and for some, that's a literal term. Enter Ana and Mia, but in case you didn't or don't know their real names, it's Anorexia and Bulimia. The one will simply starve you, the other forces you to vomit after you have eaten. Bulimics typically gorge or binge eat and then head for the nearest toilet to barf it back up. Their hands and knuckles have dry or cracked skin because of the stomach acid that is consequently forced out with the recently eaten food. Anorexics are quite the opposite, instead eating nothing or extremely little. Most of the time this diet is water and tissue paper (yes, you read that right). It is not uncommon for an Anorexic to feel "fat" after drinking water.

This all sounds odd to the rest of us that believe food is a good thing instead of the Devil himself. However, there are unfortunately hundreds of thousands of women that prescribe themselves to these beliefs and thus begin to starve themselves in the name of beauty and fashion. To this end I begin my rant against the established powers:

WHAT ON EARTH!?! Starving women in the vain notions of beauty and fashion? This is stark raving mad territory. Beauty is in the eye of the behold (or beer holder, depending on who you are), and fashion is just silly. How is bone thin beautiful? I always thought one's frame was supposed to be concealed beneath muscle, a slight layer of fat, and skin. Apparently I'm the psycho one in danger of being committed. How dare these lies exist telling women who aren't a size 0 they're "fat" or the more common term "fat cow/pig". It's a degrading and shameless ploy and plays an unfair game, tugging at a woman's heartstrings. "Oh I'll just tell her that those super-models do this and spin it that way. That way it'll be more appealing and she'll more readily believe it." For crying out LOUD! What kind of bull is this? So because super-models do it that automatically makes it right? If they jumped off a bridge into a pit of angry alligators, would that be alright as well? I say death to the man that coined these lies. How do I know it's a man? No woman would dare degrade herself this willingly on her own for no reason whatsoever. Whoever coined these ridiculous guidelines that a woman "MUST" be a size 0 and musn't EVER eat should be shot, hanged, drawn and quartered and burned at the stake. For the lies you have millions of women believing and knowing that 5-20% of them will die in the pursuit of "beauty and fashion". I ask you all, if bone thin is beautiful and I humbly submit that it is not. To the same that morbidly obese is unattractive, the horridly thin is as well. Sunken cheeks, protruding hip bones, exposed knee and elbow joints and super-thin appendages, not to mention the receding hair-line, shriveling organs and severe stomach pains at odd hours.

I denounce these wicked powers and doth declare they should be abolished. The first to go is the media, for your coverage of such events and willingness to purvey the lie that EVERY woman in the world needs to be this way, even if they are physically incapable of squeezing their bodies down to a size 0. For your willingness to make a woman feel depressed, I do shun the media. And to the fashion industry, I loathe and detest your willingness to parade skeleton frames down the cat-walk, cameras flashing and flocks of vanity-grieving persons oogling with checks in hand and ideas floating. Your industry is based on whimsy and easily half of your styles will NEVER see practical function. You spend hours and money on a possible concept and to some end it never sees the light of day again. At the cost of a design you haggle your models to be expressionless and walking mannequins. The only thing different is that your models have a heartbeat, and as such are as human as you are (though you may deny them that right for the sake of your profession). You sorry lot are disgusting and I devote my time on this earth against your match-stick empire. EAT, DRINK, and LIVE! For tomorrow you (may) die.

It is a mental condition brought on by the masses of media, and though we can blame the media, it's not all the media's fault. Bullies, wherever and whenever can be blamed as well. Even parents, who abuse their children, having no thought or quarter given to the repercussions their actions against their children may have on them. The very existence of anorexia and bulimia sickens me. Moreover, the fact that these diseases have "personalities" as it were is even more verbose. Shock, I now what you're going through, because I dated a girl with this same issue. All you can do is be there for her. Encourage her every day that you see her. Never force anything upon her.

Edited by Warboss Nooka, 02 May 2009 - 05:26.

[Rayburn]

This only goes to show the decadence of our superficial society. People in the west have grown too lazy and stupid, taking such precious things as liberty and prosperity for granted which allows them to waste their time on shit like this. Excessive body cult, veganism, blind consumerism, over-sexualisation, you usually get these things in wealthy democracies where you don't have to do much for a daily living. Don't want to eat? Fine, even though you're too weak to work, the state'll pay for you and if you're feeling dizzy, there's always a hospital that'll help you out even though you got into this all by yourself. Go try that in a dictatorship. You may say that this is entirely unrelated but I think it's not. People who take their freedoms for granted and have too much time on their hands because their country/economic situation simply DOESN'T force them to work all day tend to do stupid things and eventually define their entire personality through these stupid things.

And of course the media are at fault (among others, like Nuker said), creating fake idols and propagating false values for a society which has become too idiotic for common sense. I can only talk about German TV but that's striking enough: For most of the time, you will see models out of which maybe 5% are actually famous. The rest: Uneducated teenage-bints who call themselves models because they don't eat, make a smug face and loll in front of some shady photographer who's "gonna make 'em the next big thing". All the women on TV who aren't models are either cosmeticians or hairdressers. Today's idols are all about the looks, the surface but what about the brains? What about personality? Where are the doctors, the cops, the firemen, the train drivers, the pilots, you know, all the people we used to look up to when we were young? The people who actually contributed to the good of our society rather than that of some shallow starlet-of-the-week. Even the binmen are more important than those. I respect the people who take care of the rubbish. Without them, our cities would be a mess. These people, as simple as it may seem, are making a positive contribution. Their work is more respectable than that of all the cosmeticians in the world.

Sorry if that wasn't exactly on topic, but philosophical discussions have to be free enough for thoughts to stray at times.

Edited by Rayburn, 29 May 2009 - 07:44.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Supplemental reading material for consideration:

Anorexia and Bulimia both stem from a somewhat deep-rooted instance in one's psyche. Sometimes this is brought about by trauma at an early age or simply the bullies at school. The saying goes that sticks and stones break bones, but words will never hurt is a lie itself. Words are the most cruel of the three and at the so-called tender ages, the wrong words at the right time can stick themselves deep within the mind of a child and can shape the very fabric of how they grow up. Bulimics seek to control themselves by forcing the food to come back up by inducing vomiting. Anorexics cut themselves off from food or will only allow themselves to eat a very small morsel of food over a period of several days. Either way you look at it, these tactics are the extreme measures of desperation. Desperation to have control and be seen as "beautiful", "thin", or "pretty". It is their belief in this foul mantra that taints their view of themselves and allows them to see a fat person in the mirror when the rest of the world sees a skeleton. They are blind to their own reality and numb to their mortality. Most likely they have lost friends because they limit who comes in contact with them. They do this because Mia or Ana "tell" them to. Mia or Ana tell them that their friends are plotting against them or that they say "look at the fatty" to one another behind their backs. Lies, all of it lies (mixed with the right dosage of paranoia).

It's not enough that the women who are already skinny, believe that they're fine. No, they need to be told they are and they need to be encouraged. The same goes for those striving to be thin that are "obese". There are far better means of getting to "thin" than starvation and vomiting. Exercise and a well-balanced diet comes to mind. However, for those that are basically "too far gone" and believe that food is the enemy, a different approach is needed. In this case, the change needs to be brought on more gradually and naturally. The woman here needs to be encouraged and constantly reassured that she is perfect the way she is and that she is beautiful no matter what. She needs to be reassured that when people look at her, they're not talking about her and that they don't believe she is fat (actually, if anyone is talking about her, it's probably something on the order of she's too thin).

[ultimentra]

I have a suggestion, tell her that she will look more beautiful to you if she was not thin and that her health is the most important thing to you. If you have already tried this, try try again. Just show her you care and eventually she should change her ways, at least thats what I have seen happen with my parents and siblings.

[Shirou]

What you are suggesting is actually hitting the core of the problem of ALL anorexics, they don't believe that. The moment they start believing you that they are not ugly when their ribs are not countable, then they will not be anorexics anymore..

The fact that it's apparently so difficult to get out of it, also indicates how hard it is to actually convince her, or any anorexic at that, of her own beauty as a person. Pro-ana sites make that even harder.

And Rorschach, I wasn't objecting to the contents of your statement, but rather the unfriendly way you brought it about. Like all of us think with a normal mind, anorexic bodies are disgusting to look at, but that's something we've all got straight and isn't supportive to the topic. It's like saying the depressed are not fun people to talk with in a topic about depression.

I cannot prevent her from looking at these sites but every single time a new instance of anything related to anorexia or pro-anorexia movements I have jumped right on it, denying everything I don't even know she was thinking about and telling her what I thought of it. What is very indicative that everytime that I do something like that out of the blue I get a dodgy, nearly denying response.

Another sign may be her comparisons of other people. She sees me as skinny, with a BMI of 22 and pant size of 34, I can still see that she really believes I am below healthy weight, while the girl in question has a BMI of 17. That's still acceptable at her age of 15, but it's just waiting until she dives under it..

[Whitey]

I understand that the way I put it was terribly blunt. At first, I thought it was terribly mean and felt like garbage about myself after saying it and you pointing it out to me.

But if anorexics are not convinced that they will look better with some fat and muscle on their body, perhaps they need to be convinced that they look their worst without it. That any weight gain will, necessarily, lead them to a better state than that which they are in. If somebody thinks that what they are doing makes them look good, is it wrong to tell them otherwise? Don't tell them that they are beautiful but could look better. Don't sugar-coat it. The less sugar-coating there is, the more likely they are to change.

-Rorschach

[Shirou]

You may have a point there. Telling somebody who thinks of her/himself as downright ugly, won't attach a lot of credibility to someone who tells them the complete opposite.

[Sgt. Nuker]

@ Shock: You can not convince her, no one can. No one, that is, but herself. She first has to want to give up the demon of Ana before she'll start truly believing that she is perfect the way she is. Females subscribing to the "teachings" of Ana or Mia have a tendency to lie to everyone, themselves included. I say this because if you tell her that she looks good and she says something like "I know" or even "thank you", she doesn't really mean it. 4 months of dating a pro-Mia girl has taught me that. The bad part about living an Ana or Mia lifestyle goes beyond seeking complete control over one's life. It eventually stems into affecting the brain because their electrolytes become imbalanced. They don't eat enough of anything with any kind of salt contents to keep their electrolytes in acceptable levels. It is very hard to live with a follower of Ana or Mia, but that's not to say it can't be done. Be as understanding as possible and research the effects of this disease. There's nothing you can do except be there, and often times, that's most of what's required. You can't prevent her from viewing the pro Ana sites, but you can counteract the teachings by how you live your life and how you treat her. Eventually she'll come around.

[Shirou]

I know I'm not likely to have any influence on it, that's the whole problem of Ana and Mia isn't it? She has a really unstable home situation + a number of other physical deficiencies is going to be even more detrimental to her self-image, but I believe that's also what causes the anorexia to begin with.

[Sgt. Nuker]

It is, because something like Ana or Mia begin in the mind. The thoughts of being thinner and being happier with one's self because of being thinner are tempting. The problem is that, instead of reaching out to friends for help or simply exercising or eating a better diet, Ana's or Mia's seek the very extreme, which is avoiding food altogether. Shock, if you don't mind me asking, has she ever eaten tissue paper or just ice cubes? Perhaps the occasional leaf of lettuce? I know for a fact that Ana's or Mia's won't even touch water because they believe it can make them fat.

Here is a link to a site that I found while I was trying to find out all I could about Ana and Mia: Anti-Ana & Mia Across the top you'll see links to pages on the site that contain information about Ana and Mia, as well as a forum and other side-effects that may have caused Ana or Mia to become a part of one's life, or that were brought on by having Ana or Mia in one's life.

[Shirou]

Well i'd rather not throw so much details in here about that. It's not that bad yet, but this is mainly meant as how I can prevent her from getting those ideas of her into practical use, because as of currently she still is eating and drinking at least more than the average anorexic. It's the little things that lurk towards Pro-ana that disturb me.

[Sgt. Nuker]

It might actually be better if you do know, so that you know what to suspect, since it is most likely that your beloved will only slip towards being more Ana than she is now because of the pro-Ana sites. Maybe it isn't bad now, but even if kept in check, it can become worse. In a case like this, knowledge is power.

[Alias]

I don't see why you're pinning so much of this on websites. They may have some influence, but the main influence is always the mental health of who it is affecting.

In other news, why is it so hard to type out "anorexia" and "bulimia", "ana" and "mia" don't really make this sound as serious as it is. You don't call schizophrenics a "schizo" in a serious discussion.

[Golan]

People, if you know someone suffering from bulimia or anorexia (the real cases, not the 1.6m/50kg persons) get some professional help. Now! Do NOT try to talk them out of it, do NOT try to reason with them, do NOT think you can handle it on your own. If you can act understanding and caring towards him/her, DO SO, as this kind of support is critical for them, but do NOT think that this will change anything of the situation all by itself. Try to get as much counseling and guidance for yourself as possible to make sure that you don't overreact, look for doctors , psychiatrists, counselling services, whatever you can find.
Also, please keep these things in mind: If you really feel that you need to protect him/her, always be aware that this means also protecting them from themselfs in extreme situations. Do not hesitate to act against their "will" if you are sure that they cannot control the situation anymore (make sure however that you DO know what you are doing).
There's a time for helping and there's a time for saying goodbye. Know your own limits.

Quote

That as to be one of the worst and most fundamentally cruel statements I have ever heard and I am actually sickened by it. I really cannot begin to tell you how actually disgusted I am right now.

How would you feel if I made a statement that said Albinos are ugly? Anorexia is genuine condition, one that several of my friends have battled with for many years. Statements like your shows ignorance of the condition and the last one show just how poor a human being you are.

So then what IS allowed to be called ugly? Fat people, athletic people, skinny people, crippled people, [...] pale people or rednecks? There's a reason why humans naturally perceive visibly "abnormal" people as ugly and the "political correctness" of denying such notions without a proper reason is what makes it so easy for mislead people to corrupt others with their self-destructive views. It's the darker and edgier version of The Emperor's New Clothes - with a lot less fun but a lot more chances to get someone killed.
Face it, bulimia and/or anorexia makes people ugly because every "normal" person can feel how sickening and frightening it is to willingly do such things to ones own body. Denying this will only create a state of false tolerance.

Edited by Golan, 03 May 2009 - 08:57.

[Shirou]

Alias, on 3 May 2009, 2:11, said:

I don't see why you're pinning so much of this on websites. They may have some influence, but the main influence is always the mental health of who it is affecting.

In other news, why is it so hard to type out "anorexia" and "bulimia", "ana" and "mia" don't really make this sound as serious as it is. You don't call schizophrenics a "schizo" in a serious discussion.

Which is why in the start post I tried to make it a rather general discussion on Pro-ana sites rather than one of my own case. But I failed to fullfill that myself because I got too carried away.

Pro-ana movements are a topic on itself and important enough to discuss about. Oh and Ana and Mia are just abbrevations, but they do not detract from the seriousness of the subject, in my opinion.

[G-sus]

pretty obvious, they do.
they are not just abbreviations, but a try to make the mental illnesses known as anorexia and bulimie seem like female persons.
a "girlfriend", so to see. thats what this was invented for, and its one of the core methods of those movements.
so dont use that words, its wrong and giving the wrong impression.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Alias, on 2 May 2009, 20:11, said:

I don't see why you're pinning so much of this on websites. They may have some influence, but the main influence is always the mental health of who it is affecting.

In other news, why is it so hard to type out "anorexia" and "bulimia", "ana" and "mia" don't really make this sound as serious as it is. You don't call schizophrenics a "schizo" in a serious discussion.

It is obvious to me that you have never had to deal with someone who is suffering from anorexia or bulimia (there, happy now that I've typed it out?) But if we're going to get really technical, then perhaps we should call the conditions "anorexia-nervosa" and "bulimia-nervosa". These conditions are given names like "Ana" or "Mia", to make them seem more friendly. The effect this has is tremendous. The thing of it is, do you want someone called "Anorexia" to talk to you or do you want someone called "Ana" to talk to you? My bet is on "Ana". In reality they have the same message to get across but one pill is easier to swallow.

Websites may have some influence? Are you kidding me? You really don't know, do you mate? pro-ana and pro-mia websites fuel the fire (as it were), and the sites are many members strong, likely with people who have been following an anorexic or bulimic lifestyle for years (effectively making them an expert...as it were). Those seeking to be thin by this means of destroying one's body will hang on every word, every "teaching" put out on these sites. These sites feed the mental health of the person affected, so in reality, it's all a vicious circle, one thing feeding off the other.

In other news, I used to see Ana and Mia differently, as something one could stop at any time easily. But you see, after meeting and dating a bulimic my perception has changed dramatically. These conditions are deep-rooted in a person's psyche, so even though a person may be "cured" of the condition, the slightest trigger could set them off back to Ana or Mia again.