34 replies to this topic

[Z_mann]

Okay, here's the deal:

I want some proof of my existence - delivered by one of you.

[Golan]

Seeing that you only want proof of your existence, not of your existence as a human 19 year old male from Belgrade, Serbia [insert random facts about Z_mann here], that's not exactly difficult.
You generate information, therefore you are. That is to say, any action (either active or passive) involving you proofs your existence, as otherwise that action would be impossible.

[Libains]

Can't be done. There is now way of proving that you are a real human body, a brain in a vat, or a completely artificial intelligence. Think the Matrix, but worse. It's possible that's we're all some sort of massive computer program, as in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

The person who unquestionably proves this fact will make a fortune and be hailed as a pure genius.

[CommanderJB]

If you don't exist, who started the topic I'm responding to?

[Pav:3d]

But did he start it? Or is it all in your head? and me replying like this is in your head too?

[Golan]

Wouldn't matter. If he were to only exist as an impression in CommanderJB's head, he'd still exist - just not as a"real" human.

[RaiDK]

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 19:17, said:

Okay, here's the deal:

I want some proof of my existence - delivered by one of you.

This post, saved forever on the internet.

There.

[Rich19]

It doesn't matter if you really exist or not. If you do, great. If you don't, then you're at least convincing enough for me not to notice the difference, and frankly that's the only thing that matters to me.

[Z_mann]

A few interesting things i picked up from your answers:

if i cease typing for five minutes, does my existence cease also? If I were to hide behind a curtain and remain hidden, would I cease to exist? Does the world replace itself with darkness whenever I shut my eyelids?

Also, this package of information carries nothing over nothing from its originator - it does not represent what myself believes to be. Then how can it possibly be the only proof of my existence?

[Golan]

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 15:35, said:

if i cease typing for five minutes, does my existence cease also?

You can only stop an action if you exist.

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 15:35, said:

If I were to hide behind a curtain and remain hidden, would I cease to exist?

You cannot be behind a curtain without existing. Besides, you did make yourself known to us, so you will continue existing regardless of your state.

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 15:35, said:

Does the world replace itself with darkness whenever I shut my eyelids?

Take a drill and have a look?
Or just put a camera right next to you and watch the video later...

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 15:35, said:

Also, this package of information carries nothing over nothing from its originator - it does not represent what myself believes to be. Then how can it possibly be the only proof of my existence?

That's not what you asked for. Your existence is independent from your actual shape and attributes.

[General]

AJ, on 21 May 2009, 12:21, said:

The person who unquestionably proves this fact will make a fortune and be hailed as a pure genius.

Prepare my nobel prize... All of us an illusion, dream, smallest part of the matter is ' nothing ', its empty.

Edited by General, 21 May 2009 - 17:45.

[Z_mann]

Yes but if I do stop typing, up until i resume, there is no more confirmation of my existence. Until i present myself for observation again - my existence has no proof.

But let me digress. The real question is: does the unobserved matter perish? Can we be sure of anything but the existence of the self?

If the world does not exist unobserved, and the senses are questionable, than all that's left that holds reality together is belief in it. And belief is subjectable - it cannot be used for proof. Case in point - reality does not really exist!

Think about it: all humans are imaginative creatures, we can imagine different, fictional realities. And now, since we cannot prove the existence of the objective world, we have to rely on belief. And belief relies on imagination - people can believe in anything.

Furthermore, since belief is a part of a 'soul', then only a soul can exist. The reality you believe in is only a part of you.

Also, there is no us! We do not exist, only 'I' do. The person who reads this...

I'm not making this up folks - there's a movement in philosophy called solipsism that revolves mainly around this. And they do have some serious arguments...

[Golan]

You need to properly define a couple of things in order for these questions to even make sense. "Existence", "proof", "observation", "reality", all of those are not used in their standard meaning in this kind of argumentation, otherwise your point is by definition invalid (or the definitions are, but as you are trying to use them to proof your point...).

*goes back to his quantum dynamics exercises*

Edited by Golan, 21 May 2009 - 18:26.

[Z_mann]

I'm no philosopher, so I really don't know the correct definitions. Also, this is not made up - mostly what I remember from high school.

Also, we're just talking. Please don't pwn me so hard next time

[Chyros]

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 17:35, said:

A few interesting things i picked up from your answers:

if i cease typing for five minutes, does my existence cease also? If I were to hide behind a curtain and remain hidden, would I cease to exist?

Technically speaking, yes, out of our perspectives. Because when you're not responding there is a chance you've died (for whatever bizarre reason is irrelevant) and quantummechanically, if a system (you) can be in multiple states at once (simplified, 99,99999% chance you're alive, 0,00001% you're dead), it is in all states at once. So to us, whenever you're not responding, you're dead and alive at the same moment. When you respond again, you suddenly spring back to life. Exact same story as with Schroedinger's cat.

Believe in science now?

[Golan]

Him being dead wouldn't stop him from existing, though. Like loosing an arm won't stop him from existing either. Life signs sure are overrated these days.

Edited by Golan, 21 May 2009 - 19:10.

[WNxMastrefubu]

Golan, on 21 May 2009, 14:52, said:

Him being dead wouldn't stop him from existing, though. Like loosing an arm won't stop him from existing either. Life signs sure are overrated these days.

when he says exist i think he means alive too

[ultimentra]

You think, therefore you are. Checkmate.

[Golan]

WNxMastrefubu, on 21 May 2009, 20:31, said:

Golan, on 21 May 2009, 14:52, said:

Him being dead wouldn't stop him from existing, though. Like loosing an arm won't stop him from existing either. Life signs sure are overrated these days.

when he says exist i think he means alive too

Then he's asking the wrong question and would have to define living as well. After all, it should be quite difficult to prove his body got a working metabolism (isn't that the current definition of living?) just by pure reasoning, so a question for this seems out of place.

[Brad]

ultimentra, on 21 May 2009, 21:01, said:

You think, therefore you are. Checkmate.

Yes, but if he stops thinking, does that make him non-exsistant?

What if the only thing keeping us 'exsisting' is thought.

[ΓΛPTΘΓ]

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 10:17, said:

Okay, here's the deal:

I want some proof of my existence - delivered by one of you.

There.

[General]

Brad, on 21 May 2009, 21:15, said:

ultimentra, on 21 May 2009, 21:01, said:

You think, therefore you are. Checkmate.

Yes, but if he stops thinking, does that make him non-exsistant?

What if the only thing keeping us 'exsisting' is thought.

You just can't stop thinking my friend, maybe in sleep but even in that you see ' dreams'

[Z_mann]

Golan, you're nailin' the big question: when does a person cease to exist. For that matter - when does existence begin? I'd like to have a proper definition on that term, maybe it will stop my arguments from trainwrecking into each other

Also: these words aren't any real proof of my existence, are they. It could very well be a fraud, some kind of server glitch or hallucination on the receiving end (your brain)...

I tend to fall asleep and not dream some times. Just close my eyes, open them, and its morning. Was I dead for a few hours?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 22:15, said:

Also: these words aren't any real proof of my existence, are they. It could very well be a fraud, some kind of server glitch or hallucination on the receiving end (your brain)...

But it is something as opposed to being causeless.

Z_mann, on 21 May 2009, 22:15, said:

I tend to fall asleep and not dream some times. Just close my eyes, open them, and its morning. Was I dead for a few hours?

The Answer: It doesn't matter. Nobody was there to care. Without observation whether you exist or not is pointless.

[cccdfern]

from what i see is that your existence is true while you
have the ability to type a response, but then anything
which you can detect by using one or all of the 5 senses
exists. for you to state that you didn't exist would be
defying the fact that you just proved your existence through
replying. even AI exists for it was created by someone and
can be readily manipulated to perform a set amount of
tasks in a particular way, therefore if it doesn't exist how do we
know about it? but then this brings up the questions of myths legends
and such (dragons fairies and the like), even though you may never
have encountered such a thing in material existence, the idea of it still
lingers within your imagination.