7 replies to this topic

[SquigPie]

Does anybody here know this?

If you do, skip to the bottom, if you don't then read this:

After WWII, lots of people wondered why the germans followed orders that was outright inhuman, such as murdering people en-mass.

Where they simply evil? Or where they a very disciplined people who always followed orders (Pruisian mentality)? And was it something unique for them only?

So a guy named Milgram conducted an experiment

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Three people take part in the experiment: "experimenter," "learner" ("victim") and "teacher" (participant). Only the "teacher" is an actual participant, i.e. unaware about the actual setup, while the "learner" is a confederate of the experimenter. The role of the experimenter was played by a stern, impassive biology teacher dressed in a grey technician's coat, and the victim (learner) was played by a 47 year old Irish-American accountant trained to act for the role. The participant and the learner were told by the experimenter that they would be participating in an experiment helping his study of memory and learning in different situations.[1] The subject was given the title teacher, and the confederate, learner. The participants drew lots to 'determine' their roles. Unknown to them, both slips said "teacher," and the actor claimed to have the slip that read "learner," thus guaranteeing that the participant would always be the "teacher." At this point, the "teacher" and "learner" were separated into different rooms where they could communicate but not see each other. In one version of the experiment, the confederate was sure to mention to the participant that he had a heart condition.

The "teacher" was given an electric shock from the electro-shock generator as a sample of the shock that the "learner" would supposedly receive during the experiment. The "teacher" was then given a list of word pairs which he was to teach the learner. The teacher began by reading the list of word pairs to the learner. The teacher would then read the first word of each pair and read four possible answers. The learner would press a button to indicate his response. If the answer was incorrect, the teacher would administer a shock to the learner, with the voltage increasing in 15-volt increments for each wrong answer. If correct, the teacher would read the next word pair.

The subjects believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks. In reality, there were no shocks. After the confederate was separated from the subject, the confederate set up a tape recorder integrated with the electro-shock generator, which played pre-recorded sounds for each shock level. After a number of voltage level increases, the actor started to bang on the wall that separated him from the subject. After several times banging on the wall and complaining about his heart condition, all responses by the learner would cease.

At this point, many people indicated their desire to stop the experiment and check on the learner. Some test subjects paused at 135 volts and began to question the purpose of the experiment. Most continued after being assured that they would not be held responsible. A few subjects began to laugh nervously or exhibit other signs of extreme stress once they heard the screams of pain coming from the learner.

If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:

Please continue.
The experiment requires that you continue.
It is absolutely essential that you continue.
You have no other choice, you must go on.
If the subject still wished to stop after all four successive verbal prods, the experiment was halted. Otherwise, it was halted after the subject had given the maximum 450-volt shock three times in succession.

Basically, the experiment was created to see if a person would blindly follow cruel and inhuman orders if an authority figure told them it was allright.

The people behind it did it both in USA and Germany, the exact same way with the exact same dialogue and people. They expected that the majority americans would stop very fast and that the majority of the germans would continue until the end.

As you might expect, they where wrong.

70% of the americans continued until the very end. Think it was the same for the germans.

Youtube link to a newer version of the experiment.

I think it was a brilliant experiment, it shows us some insight into our views on authority, shows us how people like Hitler came to power.

I'm not sure how I would react if it was me sitting in there, "The Man in the White Coat" is always right, so maybee I would do it, maybee I would tell him that I'm GTFO and leave.

What about you?

[Dauth]

Actually he wore a brown coat but yes its an interesting piece.

Subsequent to the experiment guidelines were added so it was impossible to repeat.

[General]

Things are very different for army, if you not follow the rules, you either get a very high punishment or die, if people do this in such kind of experiment, its natural to see them do such horrible things on the battlefield. I say those who continue to experiment until the end must be watched carefully after the experiment is over, this is an experiment and they didn't question what it is about and inflict pain ( sure it was recorded voice but they didn't know it ) to someone else, such people can be dangerous, this is not a war or something, they must atleast ' question ' the experiment, I personally should not attend to such experiments, those who willing, well they are potential criminals imo.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Dauth, on 12 Aug 2009, 14:21, said:

Subsequent to the experiment guidelines were added so it was impossible to repeat.

Not only that, but the first experiment was rather poorly constructed, as numerous mental break downs were the consequence to those administering the shock. They were in a separate room and had no idea if the shock was being administered or not. After the test was complete, they were simply let go, no exit "interview" was conducted.

[Dauth]

Turian, on 12 Aug 2009, 21:12, said:

Things are very different for army, if you not follow the rules, you either get a very high punishment or die, if people do this in such kind of experiment, its natural to see them do such horrible things on the battlefield. I say those who continue to experiment until the end must be watched carefully after the experiment is over, this is an experiment and they didn't question what it is about and inflict pain ( sure it was recorded voice but they didn't know it ) to someone else, such people can be dangerous, this is not a war or something, they must atleast ' question ' the experiment, I personally should not attend to such experiments, those who willing, well they are potential criminals imo.

Before he got shut down (legislation is slow) it was redone with civilians to the same effect.


IIRC of the 69 candidates all 69 went to the voltage that was said to be lethal 300V, in excess of 70% went to the full 360V. They were given a shock at 15V to "prove" they were real. Charlie was behind the screen complaining of heart trouble during the later stages, he fell silent at around 280V.

[Whitey]

I believe I read about this while studying sociology. The results really are interesting, and it makes you wonder just how 'cruel' your average person can be.

[jnengland77]

Another interesting experiment very with similar methodology and purpose is Standford Prison Experiment by Philip "The Vampire" Zimbardo (and yes he does look a bit like a vampire ). For those not familiar with with it here is a wikipedia except:

The Stanford prison experiment was a study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. The experiment was conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by Psychology Professor Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Twenty-four undergraduates were selected out of 70 to play the roles of both guards and prisoners and live in a mock prison in the basement of the Stanford psychology building. Those selected were chosen for their lack of psychological issues, crime history, and medical disabilities, in order to obtain a representative sample. Roles were assigned based on a coin toss.

Prisoners and guards rapidly adapted to their roles, stepping beyond the boundaries of what had been predicted and leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies, while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized and two had to be removed from the experiment early. After being confronted by Christina Maslach, a graduate student in psychology whom he was dating, and realizing that he had been passively allowing unethical acts to be performed under his direct supervision, Zimbardo concluded that both prisoners and guards had become too grossly absorbed in their roles and terminated the experiment after six days.

Ethical concerns surrounding the famous experiment often draw comparisons to the Milgram experiment, which was conducted in 1961 at Yale University by Stanley Milgram, Zimbardo's former college friend. Tom Peters and Robert H. Waterman Jr wrote in 1981 that the Milgram experiment and the Stanford prison experiment were frightening in their implications about the danger which lurks in the darker side of human nature.

You'll find a lot of information and videos on youtube about it. Some include talks by members involved with it and Zimbardo, himself. I think there might be the original video or a reenactment of it, too, on youtube.

The Vampire also talks about, what he calls, The Lucifer Effect. It's about how good people turn evil. He wrote a book about it. I haven't read the book, but know a couple of friends who have. It talks about Milgram's experiment, Stanford Prison Experiment, Abu Ghraib prisoner abuses (in Iraq), and I think he does talk about World War II and what war does to people. It's some pretty neat stuff. Most of it very situational.

[SquigPie]

Hmmm, sounds like something I should read once.