29 replies to this topic

[Slightly Wonky Robob]

I just watched an interesting debate on the subject, and if you have 3/4 of an hour to spare, it's worth the watch. Here's the site.

If you don't want to watch it, I'll summarise with an interesting result; before the debate the members of the audience voted on the matter, 678 agreed it was a force for good, 1102 disagreed and 346 were undecided. After the debate there were 268 for, 1876 against and 34 undecided.

Your thoughts on the matter?

[Ghostrider]

I'm wondering where the 52 extra people came from in the second poll.

[Golan]

IMO the catholic church isn't a capital f force at all, so how could it be a Force For Good?

While IMO the discussion shown in the Video is somewhat biased by an unfair choice of speakers, in general I agree with the arguments opposing the topic's statement.

Edited by Golan, 12 November 2009 - 09:06.

[SquigPie]

To me, the Catholic Church is like the Government.

It gives lots of money to charities, is generally good and want the greater good for everyone.

However, its a political force, it uses manipulation to further its cause, covers up alot of horrible things, and masses its wealth and fortune.

So my opinion of them is completely neutral,

/Seriousity Off: And according to Jack Chick, they've also got a supercomputer with the name of every single Protestant in the world, so that they may hunt us down when they TAKE OVAH DA WURLD!

Edited by Bearholder, 13 November 2009 - 11:50.

[deltaepsilon]

I'm just glad they're separate from the government.

E.g the middle ages - we all know how great things were back then!

[Slightly Wonky Robob]

Doesn't mean they can't and won't try influencing the government's decisions though.

Quote

The Catholic Archdiocese of Washington said Wednesday that it will be unable to continue the social service programs it runs for the District if the city doesn't change a proposed same-sex marriage law, a threat that could affect tens of thousands of people the church helps with adoption, homelessness and health care.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9111116943.html

It boggles the mind really

[nip]

I was waiting for the hells angle #1 - Mother Theresa - being introduced as an example of Roman-Catholic charity...

And regarding the Washington Post article: what do we expect from a totalitarian and misanthropic (Christianity is the religion of slaves) organisation with the official dogmas derived mainly from a hallucinating freak - St Paul of Taurus - and elaborated down the millennia as Roman-Catholics continued their tour de misère, denying this life while believing in felicity hereafter? Charity and humanity, seriously?

[D.K.]

If you think that is horrid, then come to think what the hell is going on here.

Croatia is the only country in the world that:

1.) Has contract with Vatican about what Church can do. Also, that contract is there to bypass the Constitution. How? Simple. In Constitution, it is written that in all public buildings and institutions, no religious markings are to be put. Of course, all of them have it. Why - because Church said so. And if someone says that we're secular state, I'll slap you.

2.) Has given full control of one of our districts (though only on socio-religious level) to a Vatican. Basically, whatever happens there, is simply goes over the Captol (Croatian Church HQ) directly to the Pope.

3.) Detaches masses of money from country's yearly budget for Church. And that is not like a stimulance, e.g. for charity and humanitarian work, but as some kind of "tax" to the Church.


So come to think about it. We're probably the most loyal country to a Pope and the Church. True, it formed our huge national history, but it takes too much toll these days... Even I started to lose faith in righteousness of its paths.

[mazzuli]

I think religions were invented by Satan himself, islam is the worst of all. The world would be a better place without any religions. Remember; arguing with a religious person is like chess, no matter how many good moves and arguments you make, the nutjob shits on the chesstable and goes home to brag about his "victory" against evil's forces to his fellow nutjobs. Religious people are lost to insanity and brainwashing, very rare for them to turn into normal people after the brainwashing. Well, that's just my opinion.

[Chyros]

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 17:11, said:

I think religions were invented by Satan himself, islam is the worst of all. The world would be a better place without any religions. Remember; arguing with a religious person is like chess, no matter how many good moves and arguments you make, the nutjob shits on the chesstable and goes home to brag about his "victory" against evil's forces to his fellow nutjobs. Religious people are lost to insanity and brainwashing, very rare for them to turn into normal people after the brainwashing. Well, that's just my opinion.

Without getting into censorship, you might want to pipe down a little in calling all religious people insane etc. Though I'm very much an atheist myself, would you care to explain or elaborate on a few of these rather bold statements?

-why is Islam worse?
-how are religious people insane?
-how does this apply to any moderate believer?

[mazzuli]

Chyros, on 13 Feb 2010, 17:28, said:

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 17:11, said:

I think religions were invented by Satan himself, islam is the worst of all. The world would be a better place without any religions. Remember; arguing with a religious person is like chess, no matter how many good moves and arguments you make, the nutjob shits on the chesstable and goes home to brag about his "victory" against evil's forces to his fellow nutjobs. Religious people are lost to insanity and brainwashing, very rare for them to turn into normal people after the brainwashing. Well, that's just my opinion.

Without getting into censorship, you might want to pipe down a little in calling all religious people insane etc. Though I'm very much an atheist myself, would you care to explain or elaborate on a few of these rather bold statements?

-why is Islam worse?
-how are religious people insane?
-how does this apply to any moderate believer?

-Well, islam is the worst because it seems to be the most attaracted to using violence and spreading their own beliefs by force. A study recently made in Germany where a lot of muslim refugees have moved to during the couple of last years, showed that almost 40% of the muslims would be willing to accept the use of violence to spread the word of islam (I don't have the link to this study, and don't care enough to find it again). Also from my empiric experiences I have noticed that almost all of the countries where islam is the major belief, the countries are like from stone-age (Iraq and other middle-east countries), also where do people blow their fellow citizens in the air and smitherines in the name of their religion? That's right, islamic countries. Also islam has tight restrictions on science, so it doesn't allow sciences to go forward. Not to mention the position of women. It is funny though how these stone-age people use western technology to destroy each other, if it wasn't for the western countries, they would be probably mugging each other with bats and stones..

-Above^, plus the fact that they want to force other people to believe their fake gods and other stupid beliefs (Voting religion to be taught in schools and shit). It has also been shown that the more highly you are educated, the bigger the chance is that you are an atheist. I believe in science and freedom of word, which often are not condoned by religious people. I don't believe in anything supernatural, if science can't explain a phenomenon yet, I believe it's not a god's mircale or anything like that, I just belive science will be able to explan that phenomenon when it advances far enoough.

-The above^, although usually moderate believers are not so radical, nevertheless they are idiots if the believe in fairy tales created 2000 years ago. Seriously, jesus made a passage through the ocean and shit?? Seriously...

I apologize for any typos and stuff, I am under the influence, a bit. ^^¨

[CJ]

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 19:00, said:

Chyros, on 13 Feb 2010, 17:28, said:

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 17:11, said:

I think religions were invented by Satan himself, islam is the worst of all. The world would be a better place without any religions. Remember; arguing with a religious person is like chess, no matter how many good moves and arguments you make, the nutjob shits on the chesstable and goes home to brag about his "victory" against evil's forces to his fellow nutjobs. Religious people are lost to insanity and brainwashing, very rare for them to turn into normal people after the brainwashing. Well, that's just my opinion.

Without getting into censorship, you might want to pipe down a little in calling all religious people insane etc. Though I'm very much an atheist myself, would you care to explain or elaborate on a few of these rather bold statements?

-why is Islam worse?
-how are religious people insane?
-how does this apply to any moderate believer?

-Well, islam is the worst because it seems to be the most attaracted to using violence and spreading their own beliefs by force. A study recently made in Germany where a lot of muslim refugees have moved to during the couple of last years, showed that almost 40% of the muslims would be willing to accept the use of violence to spread the word of islam (I don't have the link to this study, and don't care enough to find it again). Also from my empiric experiences I have noticed that almost all of the countries where islam is the major belief, the countries are like from stone-age (Iraq and other middle-east countries), also where do people blow their fellow citizens in the air and smitherines in the name of their religion? That's right, islamic countries. Also islam has tight restrictions on science, so it doesn't allow sciences to go forward. Not to mention the position of women. It is funny though how these stone-age people use western technology to destroy each other, if it wasn't for the western countries, they would be probably mugging each other with bats and stones..

Sadly, that's not even the real 'spirit' of Islam or it's purpose...
Muslims are just misinterpreting the meanings of the Koran, and some dumbasses are using the fact that Koran is too mystical to be understood to change the opinions of the masses by giving them false interpretations of it. That's the main reason for me being an atheist, I find that Islam is outdated, maybe it was useful a millennial ago, but now it just doesn't suit our epoch...
But you can't also deny that medias are giving a worse idea about Muslims than they are in reality, it's true that they're sticking too much to their 'principles' but it doesn't mean that they all are. And the terrorists you see blowing themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan are just some stupid guys who were manipulated by the Talibans who are brain washing them with promises of instant access to paradise and wealth for their families if they do the Jihad D:
Same goes for women's position : The same male chauvinists that Talibans represent are creating silly precepts that never existed in the Koran, like the obligation to wear a Burka which never was mentionned in the religion... But don't get me wrong : I'm totally not taking the defense of Islam here as this former contains a lot of stupid rules that are lowering women position, like their inability to demand divorce or even stupider : The ban of their right to shout in public as their voice itself is considered as a 'shame' as well as certain parts of their body...

Also, I must correct you on thing : There are no restrictions on science by Islam, except for the cloning domain and similar ones where you're creating new life forms.

I hope I'm making sense though, it's the first time I write something about religion in English, so I don't know how to expose my arguments clearly D:

[mazzuli]

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

Edited by mazzuli, 13 February 2010 - 19:51.

[Ion Cannon!]

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 19:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

Those restrictions on stem cell research are also in place in western countries IIRC. At least stem cell research that deals with embyro cells.

Funnily enough, during the medieval period -8th-12th century, the arab world was the leader in mathematics, science, medicine and many other sociocultural aspects. The situation is very different now, but things can and do change.

[mazzuli]

Ion Cannon!, on 13 Feb 2010, 21:16, said:

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 19:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

Those restrictions on stem cell research are also in place in western countries IIRC. At least stem cell research that deals with embyro cells.

Funnily enough, during the medieval period -8th-12th century, the arab world was the leader in mathematics, science, medicine and many other sociocultural aspects. The situation is very different now, but things can and do change.

True, but now days in western societys the restrictions have mainly been deleted on science, even though they still exist in middle-east countries. So I would say that middle-east countries have fallen back in development.

After the church let it's guard down during the 16th-century, sciences started to develop in western countries very rapidly, and now we are centuries ahead of the middle-east countries, both in sciences, giving up our stupid religious thoughts and respectiong other people's opinions, also notable is that we don't stone to death girls who have been raped.

I don't know of any restrictions regarding scientific development in Finland, nor do I know any regarding any western countries, if you do, please enlighten me.

[CJ]

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 20:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

Extremists are stupid, it's well known, but it doesn't make the religion itself responsible of this lack of progress...
Also, we studied on religious education that stem cell research is okay and that it isn't against islam as it's used as a medicine (anything that is forbidden by Islam becomes justified if it's aim is to save lifes, for example you can eat pork if you don't find anything else and you are starving)

[Dauth]

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

[BeefJeRKy]

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 21:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

There are just as many if not more Christian extremists in the United States of America. People who think The Pill is a way of murder. I think your bias to Islam is unfair considering Christianity can be blamed reasonably as much as Islam even though it has taken more blame these years. Problem is Muslim extremists tend to be the expatriates. Moderates work out a way to remain home.

[mazzuli]

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:34, said:

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

So you're... saying that it's Europe's fault that muslims tend to be violent? Europe hasn't had a major impact in the middle-east affecting the teachings of Koran/islam. The middle-east has had centuries of time to evolve, or stay at the stone-age and which did they choose? They decided to stick with their ridicilous behaviour codes and shit, still killing raped women as if it's the woman's fault. These people have had (and still have) the option to ditch that ridicilous crap and start behaving like they would have actually develeoped during the centuries they missed because those stupid codes. Muslims choose to remain in the stone-age, that's why I think they are stupid, the most stupid religionists in the world.

[CJ]

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 2:16, said:

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:34, said:

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

So you're... saying that it's Europe's fault that muslims tend to be violent? Europe hasn't had a major impact in the middle-east affecting the teachings of Koran/islam. The middle-east has had centuries of time to evolve, or stay at the stone-age and which did they choose? They decided to stick with their ridicilous behaviour codes and shit, still killing raped women as if it's the woman's fault. These people have had (and still have) the option to ditch that ridicilous crap and start behaving like they would have actually develeoped during the centuries they missed because those stupid codes. Muslims choose to remain in the stone-age, that's why I think they are stupid, the most stupid religionists in the world.

Yeah well I'd ask you not to generalize, that's only a minority you're describing there...

[mazzuli]

JRK, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:44, said:

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 21:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

There are just as many if not more Christian extremists in the United States of America. People who think The Pill is a way of murder. I think your bias to Islam is unfair considering Christianity can be blamed reasonably as much as Islam even though it has taken more blame these years. Problem is Muslim extremists tend to be the expatriates. Moderates work out a way to remain home.

And just how many innocent people have these Christian extremists killed in their effort for stupidity? I'd bet it's under 50 (attacking pregnancy termination clinics), then again the muslim extremists kill count is like 10 000 at least, or more. You can't simply ignore the fact that muslims tend to be generally more violent than christians (Again, the study made in germany; 40% of muslims were ready to allow violence to be used to spread islam).

Argetlam, on 14 Feb 2010, 1:18, said:

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 2:16, said:

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:34, said:

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

So you're... saying that it's Europe's fault that muslims tend to be violent? Europe hasn't had a major impact in the middle-east affecting the teachings of Koran/islam. The middle-east has had centuries of time to evolve, or stay at the stone-age and which did they choose? They decided to stick with their ridicilous behaviour codes and shit, still killing raped women as if it's the woman's fault. These people have had (and still have) the option to ditch that ridicilous crap and start behaving like they would have actually develeoped during the centuries they missed because those stupid codes. Muslims choose to remain in the stone-age, that's why I think they are stupid, the most stupid religionists in the world.

Yeah well I'd ask you not to generalize, that's only a minority you're describing there...

Yeah well that minority doesn't seem so minor when you compare it to other religions like christianity, buddhism and others. When maybe like 1/100 is an extremist in islam, I'd say the figure for christians and others is like 1/10 000. Or have you seen any protests and rioters carrying signs that "People who critize God (or Buddha) should have their heads cut off" ? Seriously, think about it.

[CJ]

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 2:21, said:

JRK, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:44, said:

mazzuli, on 13 Feb 2010, 21:47, said:

Well, you are correct that Koran itself doesn't have any restrictions for science (I think that's mainly because science was an unknown word 1400 years ago when islam-religion was founded), however many extreme islamists oppose stem cell research for an example (=restricting science). And a islam has a very big portion of these extremists compared to other religions, so in general I would say that people who believe in islam don't want science to progress. Also it is notable that all the major breakthroughs in science have been made in the western countries, also notable is that the church tuned down it's position in the 1600-century, can you make the connections?

There are just as many if not more Christian extremists in the United States of America. People who think The Pill is a way of murder. I think your bias to Islam is unfair considering Christianity can be blamed reasonably as much as Islam even though it has taken more blame these years. Problem is Muslim extremists tend to be the expatriates. Moderates work out a way to remain home.

And just how many innocent people have these Christian extremists killed in their effort for stupidity? I'd bet it's under 50 (attacking pregnancy termination clinics), then again the muslim extremists kill count is like 10 000 at least, or more. You can't simply ignore the fact that muslims tend to be generally more violent than christians (Again, the study made in germany; 40% of muslims were ready to allow violence to be used to spread islam).

See, that has to be the most stupid argument I ever heard : a dumb study done by dumb guys on even dumber guys...
Seriously, statistics can easily be faked, and they'll never be accurate as the ones who are doing them will always interview people they think that will be on their side so that they can do some juicy articles about it.
For example : 4 months ago, a study in France showed that 70% of youngsters have already been shocked by the content of a game which is forbidden to -18 yo, and that 30% doesn't know what the PEGI ratings stand for (yeah, cause obviously there are people who are supposed not to understand what a big -18 in a red circle means ) the study was done on 404 young guys and gals from 12 to 18 yo, would you really trust these results ?

I live in a Muslim country, it's true that it's the most moderate one, but still, I can affirm you that people who want to spread Islam by violence are very rare (at least in North Africa), and that most Muslims don't even care about spreading Islam as they know the crusades have stopped centuries ago...

[Dauth]

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 1:16, said:

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:34, said:

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

So you're... saying that it's Europe's fault that muslims tend to be violent? Europe hasn't had a major impact in the middle-east affecting the teachings of Koran/islam. The middle-east has had centuries of time to evolve, or stay at the stone-age and which did they choose? They decided to stick with their ridicilous behaviour codes and shit, still killing raped women as if it's the woman's fault. These people have had (and still have) the option to ditch that ridicilous crap and start behaving like they would have actually develeoped during the centuries they missed because those stupid codes. Muslims choose to remain in the stone-age, that's why I think they are stupid, the most stupid religionists in the world.

Out of interest, did you read, process and think about what I posted before venting your spleen once more? The extremist violence is the result of versions of Islam conflicting, who gave them the battlelines? Yes Islam demeans women but I don't see many female Bishops/Popes, do you?

I'm guessing you'd brick up walls around any Islamic state and leave them in your "Stone Age" for the rest of time, as opposed to offering a hand and trying to slowly break down the suspicions. You may not be an extremist Muslim, frankly, you're worse.

[mazzuli]

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 9:54, said:

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 1:16, said:

Dauth, on 14 Feb 2010, 0:34, said:

Islam has been betrayed by history, in EVERY holy book there are contradictions, the Koran (or Qur'an depending on who's word you take) is no exception. The problem is that newer content is taken to overrule the older content. Towards the end of his life Mohammed (The Great Prophet of Islam) was fighting the Sumerians and thus anything put down in the book was tainted by violence. This violence has carried over and has since been used by manipulative leaders to build a power base for themselves.

This problem was made worse after World War I when the Europeans cut up the Ottoman Empire into countries, something that worked in Europe but had never been tried in the Middle East. Borders in Europe have been settled by thousands of years of rewriting them in blood. How the hell can we expect it to work in 90 in the middle East where borders cross ancient tribal lines or where the block access to natural resources?

Yes Islam is more vulnerable to violence than some other religious systems but sooner or later it all comes back to Europe imprinting themselves on everyone else.

Also, very off topic conversation but one worth continuing.

So you're... saying that it's Europe's fault that muslims tend to be violent? Europe hasn't had a major impact in the middle-east affecting the teachings of Koran/islam. The middle-east has had centuries of time to evolve, or stay at the stone-age and which did they choose? They decided to stick with their ridicilous behaviour codes and shit, still killing raped women as if it's the woman's fault. These people have had (and still have) the option to ditch that ridicilous crap and start behaving like they would have actually develeoped during the centuries they missed because those stupid codes. Muslims choose to remain in the stone-age, that's why I think they are stupid, the most stupid religionists in the world.

Out of interest, did you read, process and think about what I posted before venting your spleen once more? The extremist violence is the result of versions of Islam conflicting, who gave them the battlelines? Yes Islam demeans women but I don't see many female Bishops/Popes, do you?

I'm guessing you'd brick up walls around any Islamic state and leave them in your "Stone Age" for the rest of time, as opposed to offering a hand and trying to slowly break down the suspicions. You may not be an extremist Muslim, frankly, you're worse.

You can't deny the fact that muslims are more violent than any other religionists, as a percentage there is a bigger portion of these "extremeists" than in any other religion. For an example, muslim community born of refugees in Malmö, Sweden, has become a no-go-zone for the ambulances and fire department, because these "moderates" (muslim refugees/immigrants from the middle-east) are throwing rocks and stones at the rescue workers, is this normal? Normal or not, I don't want any of that happening here in Finland, so yes I would deny middle-eastern uneducated people's entry to Finland (and any other western countries). I don't really care whether they kill each other in the middle-east or not, I just don't want that happening here.

And no, I haven't seen many women in important jobs of the church, however women's position in the church is quite rapidly improving. I must also ask you if you've seen anyone burnt alive or stoned to death in the name of God and Christianity? In like, say the last 200 years? Also how many extremist Christians have you seen flying planes into buildings and blowing up subways in the name of the unexistent entity called "God"?

It's not really our problem that things suck in the middle-east, it doesn't really concern us. It's simply none of our business, and atleast I don't care at all what happens in the middle-east, as long as it doesn't spread here. Basically everyone is out for themselves in life, that's how I see it.

[TehKiller]

mazzuli, on 14 Feb 2010, 12:58, said:

You can't deny the fact that muslims are more violent than any other religionists, as a percentage there is a bigger portion of these "extremeists" than in any other religion.

Yes actually you can deny it. Do i see any holy text calling people to kill others? No. Do i see a decree issued by a secular state to kill other people? Yes.

As long as religion itself (and i literally mean any religion) doesn't call for violence by itself then you arent allowed to stereotype everyone.

oh and I REALLY MEAN YOU AIN'T ALLOWED. If theres anyone who will bash someone's religion its gonna be a member of the same religion.

Edited by TehKiller, 15 February 2010 - 13:51.