88 replies to this topic

[Rich19]

Well, given that the election has finally been called and Parliament dissolved, I thought I'd set up a little poll to see how FSers might vote on May 6th. There's no restriction on age or nationality for voting in this poll - so vote as if you would be eligable to do so.

I've provided a short summary of each party below (and attempted to be as unbiased as possible, so large sections are taken from either the parties' own websites, the BBC, or wikipedia ):



Currently holds 193 of 646 seats.

The Conservative Party is the principal centre-right party in the UK, and is led by David Cameron. It is currently the second largest party in terms of Members of Parliament (MPs), and currently holds the role of official opposition (as it has done since 1997). The party was in government for two-thirds of the twentieth century.

Key priorities:

• Begin spending cuts in 2010 to eliminate most of the UKs structural deficit within five years
  
• Real terms increases in health spending
  
• Allow charities, trusts, voluntary groups and co-operatives to set up new Academy schools, independent of local authority control, and to run other public services
  
• Scrap identity card scheme
  
• Recognise marriage in the tax system by allowing adults who are married or in a civil partnership to transfer up to 750 of their tax-free personal allowance to their spouse, as long as the higher-income member of the couple is a basic-rate taxpayer.

Unrepresented in the House of Commons.

The Green Party is the principal Green political party in the UK, and is led by Caroline Lucas. Although currently unrepresented in the House of Commons, members have been elected to the European Parliament, the London Assembly and in local government.

Key priorities:

• Reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 90% by 2030
  
• 45bn investment in renewables, smart metering and a smart grid
  
• Replace tax-free allowances and most social security benefits with a "Citizen's Income" available to all
  
• Devolve powers from Westminster to local councils
  
• Draw up written constitution, including a Bill of Rights
  
• Proportional representation for all elections

Currently holds 352 of 646 seats (a majority of 66).

The Labour Party is a centre-left party, and has been in government since 1997. It is currently led by the incumbent Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Historically in favour of socialism, Labour experienced a revolution under the leadership of Tony Blair, swinging much more to the centre. This catapulted the party to a landslide victory in 1997 and it has remained in government since, although it's majority in the Commons has been substantially reduced since then.

Key priorities:

• Wait until 2011 to cut spending, to halve deficit in four years
  
• Increase spending on frontline NHS services and schools but freeze or cut spending in other areas from 2011
  
• Ensure all people who suspect they have cancer get test results within one week
  
• Ensure that 60% of any tax increases adopted as deficit-reducing measures will impact only the top 5% of earners
  
• Restore the link between the state pension and earnings from 2012
  
• Guarantee a place in education or training for all 16 and 17 year olds
  
• Guarantee people aged 18-24 a job, work experience or training place if they are unemployed for more than six months

Currently holds 63 of 646 seats.

The Liberal Democrats are a centrist to centre-left social liberal party, and are the third-largest party in the Commons. The current party leader is Nick Clegg. The party is the most pro-EU of the three main parties. Support for the party is distributed fairly evenly across the country, and is not suited to the first-past-the-post electoral system.

Key priorities:

• Identify and cut 15bn of lower priority spending to protect front-line services while reducing structural deficit at least as fast as Labour plans
  
• Raise the threshold at which people start paying income tax from 6,475 to 10,000
  
• Mansion tax on the value of properties over 2m
  
• Scrap identity card scheme
  
• Replace the Council Tax with a Local Income Tax
  
• Introduce a written constitution and single transferable vote (STV) system for all UK elections.

Unrepresented in the House of Commons.

The UK Independence Party (UKIP) is a eurosceptic, conservative party whose primary aim is the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. The current party leader is Lord Pearson of Rannoch. Although not owning any seats in the House of Commons, UKIP came second in the UK in the 2009 European Elections - it currently holds thirteen seats in the European Parliament, as well as two in the House of Lords and some support in local government.

Key priorities:

• Withdraw from the EU and enter into a Swiss-style free trade agreement with EU members
  
• Replace basic and higher income tax and national insurance rates with a single, flat tax rate for everyone
  
• Freeze immigration for five years
  
• Establish a grammar school in every town
  
• Oppose green taxes and wind farms
  
• Create an English Parliament of English MPs at Westminster

So, who do you or would you support, and why?

More information on the election:
http://www.general-e...ion-2010.co.uk/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ele...010/default.stm

Edited by Rich19, 13 April 2010 - 13:10.

[Wizard]

Have always been a true Blue and that isn't going to change anytime soon. I am looking forward to kicking Brown from Number 10 come May. I don't agree with how Labour has spent millions on pretty much nothing, how they have bowed to pressure from the politically correct set and allowed people to think they have a right to do nothing and live off of my tax money, how the recession was expected by Brown as Chancellor and he did nothing (or was he just blind at the wheel?), how they have put in place a Nanny State where it is now almost illegal to come within 50 feet of the chav-child spray painting your car, they have simply refused to reduce the tax levy on fuel to ease the burden on the consumer (iirc something like 60-70% of what we pay at the pumps goes to the Government because they are spending it all on counsellors at the DSS offices for the trauma suffered by the lazy, smelly illiterate people who can't be bothered to work), how under labour a 14 year old girl can now be set up for life so long as she's prepared to use her vagina like a waterslide to expell vast numbers of mono-browed, cross eyed attention seeking vandals that she will call her children (and so will about 15 other men no doubt) into the world only for them to not to be expelled from the underfunded, over policed (ironic huh?) schools where they will probably beat up, rape and burn their geography treacher for "looking at dem funni"

The last 13 years have been hell and I honestly can't think of a genuine thing that Labour has done in that time that has had any real benefit for me. Best I can come up with is that they haven't totally fucked everything up and at least things still work, which is the very least you would of expected from Lord Sutch.

For the tl:dr amongst you: Conservative

Edited by Wizard, 13 April 2010 - 13:30.

[CJ]

I'm not really aware about the political situation in England, let alone knowing these parties, but if I had to choose between one of those, I'd certainly go for the conservatives.
That would be mainly because I'll never vote for a party of left, since those are generally constituted of racists blokes and male chauvinists, but assuming they're not, here is a little summary of what I'm thinking about each faction...

- Conservatives : Although this name suggests that this is a party who wants to go back to the medieval era, their plans sound interesting, especially the one about allowing charities and trusts to run public services.
- Liberal Democrats would be a decent choice for me as well, given the fact they're for the concept of making rich people pay more taxes which may lower the inequalities between classes in the UK.
- Labour party has (had?) Tony Blair as a leader, I take it they're just an useless party in that case (Don't forget I'm judging them as a foreigner, and Tony Blair is known only for being Bush's little dog here)
- UK Independence party sounds like they're Mormons or something, seriously, putting only one tax rate for everyone regardless of their income is certainly the dumbest move a government can make, since that would either reduce taxes for the rich who can afford to pay a lot, or raise the taxes for the poor guys who are already struggling to pay them.
- Green party : I'm not ecologist, and don't really care about the planet, plus their plan to replace most social security benefits with this "Citizen's Income" thingy sounds like a communist plan in my ears...

Anyway, it's just my personal opinion, and I've got too few knowledge of the UK political system to have a valid one...

Oh yeah also : Blue is the color of the resistance in our country, while red is the color of El Presidente's party, which is one more reason for me not to vote Red :o

Edited by Argetlam, 13 April 2010 - 13:31.

[Wizard]

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:29, said:

That would be mainly because I'll never vote for a party of left, since those are generally constituted of racists blokes and male chauvinists

The left is usually associated with socialism, liberalism and big government. Racists and chauvinists tend to be right wing.

If we want to be sterotypical that is.

Edited by Wizard, 13 April 2010 - 13:33.

[CJ]

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:33, said:

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:29, said:

That would be mainly because I'll never vote for a party of left, since those are generally constituted of racists blokes and male chauvinists

The left is usually associated with socialism, liberalism and big government. Racists and chauvinists tend to be right wing.

If we want to be sterotypical that is.

Weird... It's the exact opposite in France and Tunisia at least. In France the 'Extrême droite' (Extremist Left) is led by Le Pen and Sarkozy, which are just the two biggest racist bastards on this earth that are in the political system...

Spoiler

But I guess it's pretty normal for a country where people drive on the wrong way of the road to invert the political sides as well :o

Anyway, Labour is reputed for being a party which is not too friendly to foreigners on most of the news sources I have, that's why I assumed it was the same system...

[Alias]

Liberal Democrats/Greens. Labour has moved too far towards the right since Blair. Conservatives are too neutral. Whoever votes for the UKIP is a massive nutter.

Do you have preferential voting in the UK?

Edited by Alias, 13 April 2010 - 14:04.

[Dauth]

First past the post for MPs and then you use the number of MPs in Parliament to form a Government, can have minority Governments or Hung Parliaments this way.

[Alias]

Horrible, horrible system.

If there's one thing Australia does right it is elections.

[Libains]

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:27, said:

Have always been a true Blue and that isn't going to change anytime soon. I am looking forward to kicking Brown from Number 10 come May. I don't agree with how Labour has spent millions on pretty much nothing, how they have bowed to pressure from the politically correct set and allowed people to think they have a right to do nothing and live off of my tax money, how the recession was expected by Brown as Chancellor and he did nothing (or was he just blind at the wheel?), how they have put in place a Nanny State where it is now almost illegal to come within 50 feet of the chav-child spray painting your car, they have simply refused to reduce the tax levy on fuel to ease the burden on the consumer (iirc something like 60-70% of what we pay at the pumps goes to the Government because they are spending it all on counsellors at the DSS offices for the trauma suffered by the lazy, smelly illiterate people who can't be bothered to work), how under labour a 14 year old girl can now be set up for life so long as she's prepared to use her vagina like a waterslide to expell vast numbers of mono-browed, cross eyed attention seeking vandals that she will call her children (and so will about 15 other men no doubt) into the world only for them to not to be expelled from the underfunded, over policed (ironic huh?) schools where they will probably beat up, rape and burn their geography treacher for "looking at dem funni"

The last 13 years have been hell and I honestly can't think of a genuine thing that Labour has done in that time that has had any real benefit for me. Best I can come up with is that they haven't totally fucked everything up and at least things still work, which is the very least you would of expected from Lord Sutch.

For the tl:dr amongst you: Conservative

I'm soooo tempted to just +1 this and leave it at that.

My views are pretty similar to Wiz's tbh, we've been pushed into a nanny state system, spending has gone overboard, and Gordon Brown has single-handedly ruined the economy for the past 10 years or so.

I will further add that I would never vote for Gordon Brown to get into power - one of my major problems with him is that he is Scottish. And yet an Englishman cannot become the First Minister of Scotland (iirc). So why the bloody hell should we put up with Gordon Brown? To then further add insult to injury, the deputy leader is Harriet Harman, a woman whom I despise. Primarily because she tried to push through legislation removing MP expenses from the Freedom of Information Act, which would have meant nobody would have known about the expenses scandal. Then, just to top it all off, Labour MPs whom were involved in the scandal, are now drawing legal aid, and thus are being funded by the taxpayer in their cases against the taxpayer...

The Labour Government has stagnated over the past thirteen years, and really tried to appeal to the lower-class citizen. Benefits claims are through the roof (and some not legal, or genuinely pathetic cases) and yet these people refuse to go out and try and get a job. I have had to experience first hand girls whom at the age of 16/17 are trying to live off the government by turning their 'vaginas into waterslides' (nice quote Wiz), and it is quite frankly appauling. I could then go on to get very annoyed at the concept of everyone and their aunt going to University, and turning everywhere into a University, thus totally losing the power of many degrees. What in the name in of God is the point of sending a bloke with one 'C' A Level in Computing, to University? NONE. I know, because he was a friend of mine, failed the first year, and dropped out. Thanks to the government, he had been about £6/7k better off that year. If I were paying taxes, I would be as pissed off at it all as I know you can be sometimes Wiz. This is not to say sod the working class, this is to say sod the lazy ingrates who live comfortable lives off of the taxes paid by hard working members of the public.

While the Tories may not be perfect, they're certainly better than the debacle this country is currently in.

Don't get me started on the other parties. Lib Dems want closer ties with Europe, with possible adoption of the Euro (laughs), Green Party don't care much for politics, they just want to charge people more money for their big expensive cars, and plant more trees. UKIP wants completely out of Europe (laughs again), and while the UKIP MEP's (Member of European Parliament) speech directed at the President of Europe a few weeks back () was really quite funny, withdrawing from Europe completely would not do us any favours in a time of recession. As it stands, I'd want the European Communities Act repealed (it essentially states that Parliament takes orders from laws made in the highest European Courts, including the European Court of Human Rights, and that Parliament is essentially no longer sovereign (something that appals me as a Law student)), but we need to keep economic ties.

tl;dr: I dislike Labour, I hate Gordon Brown, and all the other parties are totally sodding useless, bar the Conservatives.

[Wizard]

I don't like the way that we can't actually choose our PM. Electorial reform is something that needs looking at here.

[Libains]

There hasn't been a proper electoral reform in roughly 500 years. Some of the practices are still very archaic. In theory, every seat in the country could be filled by a Conservative MP, and the PM could be Gordon Brown.

Why? Because we have no constitution that dictates how the PM is chosen. The convention is that the Queen appoints her Prime Minister based on who is able to command the majority of the House of Commons (thus the party with most MPs). She could say she thinks David Cameron is a wet rag, however, and appoint someone totally different. It is also just a Convention. It's not legally binding, it's not written down, and if broken, there's nothing you can do legally against it. Hell, she could appoint Dauth as PM if she wanted to (Btw if this is the case I suggest everyone flees). I could go an awful lot more in depth on this if necessary, but tbh, having just written a five page essay on the damn thing, I'm a little tired of the subject

Edited by AJ, 13 April 2010 - 14:22.

[Rich19]

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:39, said:

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:33, said:

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:29, said:

That would be mainly because I'll never vote for a party of left, since those are generally constituted of racists blokes and male chauvinists

The left is usually associated with socialism, liberalism and big government. Racists and chauvinists tend to be right wing.

If we want to be sterotypical that is.

Weird... It's the exact opposite in France and Tunisia at least. In France the 'Extrême droite' (Extremist Left) is led by Le Pen and Sarkozy, which are just the two biggest racist bastards on this earth that are in the political system...

Spoiler

But I guess it's pretty normal for a country where people drive on the wrong way of the road to invert the political sides as well :o

Anyway, Labour is reputed for being a party which is not too friendly to foreigners on most of the news sources I have, that's why I assumed it was the same system...

Unless I'm very much mistaken, "Extrême droite" translates as Extremist Right (the word for left is gauche, surely?). In any case, calling Sarkozy a leftist is not quite right, and equating Sarkozy and Le Pen is like equating David Cameron and Nick Griffin in UK politics.


Anyway, I'll probably be voting Liberal Democrat. I've always been politically left, but the current Labour government could do better. In any case, as far as I'm aware my local seat is a race between Lib Dem and Conservative, so my vote is partly a tactical keep-the-tories-out. Given the financial crisis, the Conservative economic policy makes no sense and I'm genuinely worried that they'll take us into a far, far worse recession. Their economic policy goes against the IMF and against almost all the mainstream political parties in Europe - we need to be stimulating the economy, not cutting it.

[CJ]

Rich19, on 13 Apr 2010, 15:20, said:

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:39, said:

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:33, said:

Argetlam, on 13 Apr 2010, 14:29, said:

That would be mainly because I'll never vote for a party of left, since those are generally constituted of racists blokes and male chauvinists

The left is usually associated with socialism, liberalism and big government. Racists and chauvinists tend to be right wing.

If we want to be sterotypical that is.

Weird... It's the exact opposite in France and Tunisia at least. In France the 'Extrême droite' (Extremist Left) is led by Le Pen and Sarkozy, which are just the two biggest racist bastards on this earth that are in the political system...

Spoiler

But I guess it's pretty normal for a country where people drive on the wrong way of the road to invert the political sides as well :o

Anyway, Labour is reputed for being a party which is not too friendly to foreigners on most of the news sources I have, that's why I assumed it was the same system...

Unless I'm very much mistaken, "Extrême droite" translates as Extremist Right (the word for left is gauche, surely?). In any case, calling Sarkozy a leftist is not quite right, and equating Sarkozy and Le Pen is like equating David Cameron and Nick Griffin in UK politics.

Yeah you and Wiz are right... Sorry, I'm always confusing Right and Left in English.
They're both of the right, and I'm not equating them, I'm just saying that they are both racists, even if Sarkozy is not admitting it deliberetaly like Le Pen does... After all he already created a lot of laws against immigration, let alone the ones that are considered as offending for the 'minorities', but that's not the point of this discussion anyway.

[Wizard]

Rich19, on 13 Apr 2010, 15:20, said:

we need to be stimulating the economy, not cutting it.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Nothing gets people spending money like having it. National Insurance hikes are a sure fire way to keep us where we are. I am not saying the Tories have a full proof solution, but not over managing this situation (something the Tories are famous for) might actually be the better option. Also, Labour loves to spend money on itself, ie Government, and whilst that does put money back into the economy, it doesn't put money in peoples pockets. I would trust a strategically shaved monkey to manage our countries deficit atm over anyone who is a member of the Labour party.

[Ion Cannon!]

Labour and the Tories are both suggesting alot of things which sound like they will cost, how is that going to be financed?

I generally dislike the Tories and i've been brought up rather bias I suppose, both my parents are rather left. That said, I don't like camerons idea of "Big society" . It just sounds like an excuse because they A)Don't have a fucking clue, B)Less stuff for them to actually govern, C) If something goes wrong, they can't take the blame. Schools run by parents? Oh please god no, theres obviously going to be some nutjobs that preach creationism and some kids are going to end up with a warped view of education. Not to say education is perfect now, far from it, but its more the fact that its generally just twattish kids, not bad teachers. My school in macclesfield isn't failing, but its not far from it - At least it was when I was there - But its no fault of the teachers, they were all extremely intelligent, the fault lies with the governors being so reluctant to exclude the little fuckers. The governors are mainly parents.. Not a fan at all of the "National Citizen Service" - just seems like a waste of time and money.

If theres one thing I like about the Tories its their plan to get people who shouldn't be on benefits, working. However, thats really it.. The tories made a massive furore about Labour increasing NI by 1%, which would cost the buisiness sector an extra £220 million a year according to an indepedent source (And some of that could be taken out of profit) -, yet it turned out the torys "Government waste" also included 2 billion worth of jobs cuts for the public sector - 40,000 jobs. At the same time, they're suggesting a NI cut, and they plan to give more money to the rich by establishing some new tax boundaries and changing the limit of inheritance tax - It was on their website the other week, can't seem to find it anymore. - Ah here we go

"The 50p tax rate. We do not regard the new 50p tax rate as a permanent feature of the tax system, but we will not abolish it for the rich while at the same time asking many of our public sector workers to accept a pay freeze." - Which hints in the future, they will abolish it.

While the rich may argue its not fair they get taxed more, they can afford it - The gap between rich and poor has only grown over the past decade. Okay some of the money probably will go to undeserving slobs, but some also goes to help people that genuinely need it.

Basically, I just don't see how the torys can fund everything they plan to - Big Society Bank, for example, and reduce the deficit without cutting services massively. Which could really set the recovery back. People generally have more disposable income than ever - even with the recession, theres still a large surplus, so tax hikes seem the better way to do things.

In a way, its hard to judge the parties on their current manifestos, as its pretty much a given that whatever government that gets in will announce something unpopular shortly after being elected. Especially with all the additional costs labour and the tories seem to be suggesting.

Just to add : I don't agree with the 50% to university bollocks either, but the tories don't plan on altering that sadly. They're aiming to provide an extra 10k places this year alone, how the hell they expect to do that I don't know.

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 13 April 2010 - 18:09.

[Wizard]

Ion Cannon!, on 13 Apr 2010, 18:57, said:

The tories made a massive furore about Labour increasing NI by 1%, which would cost the buisiness sector an extra £220 million a year according to an indepedent source (And some of that could be taken out of profit)

I can tell you right here, right now, the worker will foot 100% of the bill for NI increase. They won't next year, but that is just how the tax system works. They will have to bear every single penny the following year as there is not one sane businessman out there that would take a hit on profit over their employees salaries. The NI increase would hurt the recovery in a massive way, taking money out of peoples pockets.

Quote

While the rich may argue its not fair they get taxed more, they can afford it

No, not really. I am no where to close to the wages of the really big earners, but I would be destroyed by this. Believe it or not (and don't listen to AJ, Chyros or Dauth on this), I working fucking hard for my wages. I have a lot of luxuries with my job, but I give all that back and then some with the work I actually do. Why, just because I have a university education, have speciality knowledge on a speciality subject and consquently earn more than other people, should I have to pay proportionally more than others and, here is the real kick in the fucking balls, receive NONE of the benefits?????? Why can't we all pay the same flat rate? If you are successful, then fine. If you're not, well, you're not. Why the hell should I pay MORE for those who don't pay? How the ruddy fuck is that right????

Quote

Basically, I just don't see how the torys can fund everything they plan to - Big Society Bank, for example, and reduce the deficit without cutting services massively. Which could really set the recovery back.

Two issues there. Cutting back spending on services doesn't mean they won't work. Look at how much Labour has spent on services and most of them are still shit. You wouldn't believe how much money is spent on Social Services in London, yet they are still getting things wrong massively. Cutting back on spending is really cutting back on new investment. It is about not spending millions changing something every few months, which is basically what Labour do atm with education from what I hear from all of my teacher friends. The other is that, as I've said before, leaving money in peoples pockets is probably one of the better ways to stimulate the economy, it gives banks more capital to invest, even if they are shit scared of doing so atm, but it also means less debt, which is also a good thing. Probably the biggest cock up in the last ten years was the relaxation of lending criteria that happened under Labour. Look where that got us.

[Ion Cannon!]

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:15, said:

Ion Cannon!, on 13 Apr 2010, 18:57, said:

The tories made a massive furore about Labour increasing NI by 1%, which would cost the buisiness sector an extra £220 million a year according to an indepedent source (And some of that could be taken out of profit)

I can tell you right here, right now, the worker will foot 100% of the bill for NI increase. They won't next year, but that is just how the tax system works. They will have to bear every single penny the following year as there is not one sane businessman out there that would take a hit on profit over their employees salaries. The NI increase would hurt the recovery in a massive way, taking money out of peoples pockets.

That may be true but it seems to be 220million or 2bn of job cuts in the public sector, which forms a large part of the workforce in the north, and its not like we need more problems

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:15, said:

Quote

While the rich may argue its not fair they get taxed more, they can afford it

No, not really. I am no where to close to the wages of the really big earners, but I would be destroyed by this. Believe it or not (and don't listen to AJ, Chyros or Dauth on this), I working fucking hard for my wages. I have a lot of luxuries with my job, but I give all that back and then some with the work I actually do. Why, just because I have a university education, have speciality knowledge on a speciality subject and consquently earn more than other people, should I have to pay proportionally more than others and, here is the real kick in the fucking balls, receive NONE of the benefits?????? Why can't we all pay the same flat rate? If you are successful, then fine. If you're not, well, you're not. Why the hell should I pay MORE for those who don't pay? How the ruddy fuck is that right????

Your actually right, its not. In an ideal world any waster would be made to do something or killed for having no purpose, however thats never going to happen, so some people will always drain the system. If you have a flat rate, the poor would just be even poorer - leading to alot of social problems, whereas if you get taxed more its unlikely your going to mug people or not be able to afford household bills and the like. I know it sucks, but thats just the way it is.

[Libains]

Ion Cannon!, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:33, said:

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:15, said:

Quote

While the rich may argue its not fair they get taxed more, they can afford it

No, not really. I am no where to close to the wages of the really big earners, but I would be destroyed by this. Believe it or not (and don't listen to AJ, Chyros or Dauth on this), I working fucking hard for my wages. I have a lot of luxuries with my job, but I give all that back and then some with the work I actually do. Why, just because I have a university education, have speciality knowledge on a speciality subject and consquently earn more than other people, should I have to pay proportionally more than others and, here is the real kick in the fucking balls, receive NONE of the benefits?????? Why can't we all pay the same flat rate? If you are successful, then fine. If you're not, well, you're not. Why the hell should I pay MORE for those who don't pay? How the ruddy fuck is that right????

Your actually right, its not. In an ideal world any waster would be made to do something or killed for having no purpose, however thats never going to happen, so some people will always drain the system. If you have a flat rate, the poor would just be even poorer - leading to alot of social problems, whereas if you get taxed more its unlikely your going to mug people or not be able to afford household bills and the like. I know it sucks, but thats just the way it is.

Frankly, Wiz is too bloody right, and while we do take the piss, we know how bloody hard you work mate - I know how bloody hard my Dad works. 6 weeks in Kazakhstan for every 2 weeks at home. He earns well into the highest tax margin, but frankly, it's bloody awful that he should work out there and still be charged FORTY FUCKING PERCENT of his income. I'm sorry but he works his balls off, who cares if he can afford it - are you telling me that those whom contribute most to society in their work, should then in turn contribute most to society in the form of their wages too? It's a complete absurdity, and is the most disproportional piece of bullshite.

And you're telling me we don't currently have social problems? The money that the highest earners contribute goes towards:

• MPs stealing from the people in the form of expenses
  
• Stinking little chavs pissing around on the streets in the form of:
  Alcohol
  Drugs
  Cigarettes
  Stupid cars
  And absolutely nothing on anything useful
  
• Benefit scammers
  
• Useless university degrees and useless university students
  
• Providing for the unemployed who are so because:
  They aren't trying to get a job
  Have been laid off because the economy has been ballsed up by Gordon Brown

I will also point out that the concept of inheritance tax is frankly laughable, if not completely fucking stupid. When my parents do inevitably die, I will have to look at giving the government FORTY FUCKING PERCENT of their estate. Forty percent! I'm being taxed because my parents are dead. And the government wants all but half of everything they ever earned, simply because they can. I didn't earn it, it's what is rightly mine that is being gifted to me on the death of my parents. And yet the government would like forty percent of it.... if you could hear me talking about it, I'd be spluttering right now. It's pathetic, and Labour deserves to go to hell because of it.

[BeefJeRKy]

If I was in the UK I would probably vote for the Liberal Democrats since I tend to be an economic centrist. I dislike conservative politics as proven by Stephen Harper in Canada. Then again being an outsider, my opinion is fairly irrelevant anyway.

On a totally unrelated note, some of our MPs and ministers had a game of football in memoriam of the event commonly referred to as the start of the Civil War 35 years ago. Was fun to watch especially since most of them are in their 40s

[Alias]

Proponents of flat tax seem to forget that they wouldn't be where they are now if it weren't for tax brackets.

You start out at low income too. A flat tax would make it even harder for you to reach middle income. The real people who need to get taxed, the rich fat cats who come from fat cat families on fat cat wages can cruise through life even easier while your 'flat tax' gets to work ripping your working class to shreds.

Sorry, but you need some form of tax differential. I personally am a fan of 'consumer tax' over a higher income tax, as in just raise VAT to 33%+, and keep a little income tax for the higher brackets.

[BeefJeRKy]

Indeed, I find that we should be taxing consumption rather than income. It frees up more money for investment among other things.

[Shirou]

You guys are just so good at pointing about the bad things and throwing it up front for reasons not to rise taxes. Hey, I don't live in the UK but problems have been and always will be there. Fact is on the other hand that your government like every one else needs to cut expenses and raise income, and they are going to have to do it some way. Its better if you came with suggestions how else they could try to get money instead of (I agree with you there) picking on the money your parents rightfully earned.

Things like extra environment taxes on companies or other things that really pour from the big cash banks in your country. Rich people are rich defined by what a lone person can have in possession, but that is nothing compared to what rich companies can contribute. Shell can deliver the entire budget of an African country.

I would, of course, vote the Green Party, but thats more because it represents my most valued principle, not because of some of their stupid priorities like their extremely unrealistic goals, unthoughtful expenses and their proposal of devolving powers to local authorities. I don't really get how that can go together with a modern environmental policy as experience learns, the lower the government the less they will care about the environment in favour of economics in their region. Thats short of being a fact in policy making, yet they seem to have their reasons. I don't know, I am at a loss. Stupid Party. Wait, I think I'd better vote Labour if the environment wasn't my biggest concern. That party is still in its childhood.

In Holland, I'd vote GroenLinks, about equivalent but with a bit more positions in our system.

Edited by Trivmvirate, 13 April 2010 - 22:19.

[Libains]

http://robinhoodtax.org.uk/

All I have to say about how we should be earning the cash. Tax the banks, about time we got money back from them.

[Wizard]

AJ, on 13 Apr 2010, 23:57, said:

http://robinhoodtax.org.uk/

All I have to say about how we should be earning the cash. Tax the banks, about time we got money back from them.

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:15, said:

I can tell you right here, right now, the worker consumer will foot 100% of the bill for NI increase this tax ...... as there is not one sane businessman banker out there that would take a hit on profit over their employees salaries clients.

Alias, on 13 Apr 2010, 22:42, said:

You start out at low income too. A flat tax would make it even harder for you to reach middle income.

No, not quite. Your tax bracket has zero effect on your earnings potential only your net take home wage. Your standard of living would be worse off, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to follow the same career path as if there is tax differential.

Alias, on 13 Apr 2010, 22:42, said:

I personally am a fan of 'consumer tax' over a higher income tax, as in just raise VAT to 33%+, and keep a little income tax for the higher brackets.

I think 33% is far too large. However, sales tax is, imho anyway, the fairest way of doing it. If you want to buy a 6 litre V8 to get you around then you have to appreciate that you should pay for it and if that means payer a higher VAT percentage so be it. If you want to buy a million pound house, then you should have to pay the stamp duty. What we buy with our money should be proportional, not on what we earn.

Edited by Wizard, 13 April 2010 - 23:50.

[Libains]

Wizard, on 14 Apr 2010, 0:49, said:

AJ, on 13 Apr 2010, 23:57, said:

http://robinhoodtax.org.uk/

All I have to say about how we should be earning the cash. Tax the banks, about time we got money back from them.

Wizard, on 13 Apr 2010, 20:15, said:

I can tell you right here, right now, the worker consumer will foot 100% of the bill for NI increase this tax ...... as there is not one sane businessman banker out there that would take a hit on profit over their employees salaries clients.

I don't disagree that the chances of it happening are practically nil, but of all the ways in which to bolster the economy, this seems like as good a direction to go in. Would be great to see something like this happen, and come into force in law.