38 replies to this topic

[SquigPie]

*sigh*
here we go again.

Could you guys please read my damn posts all the way through before you start raging?

[Golan]

Shirou, on 4 Sep 2010, 11:00, said:

In that respect, extremist muslim = colonist jew = same fucking shit. (and mind the adjectives there, I'm not generalizing). Claiming, be it lives, land or property, just because your 'God' tells you you are right, well yeah lets not go there. The two sides of the conflict are equally bad, concluding.

Problem is, the "two sides" of the conflict aren't "extremist muslim" & "colonist jew". Those are minority groups that pull the rest of their people even deeper in the conflict.

*considers betting two cents that this faulty generalization is part of what SquigPie is trying to talk about*

Edited by Golan, 04 September 2010 - 13:33.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 16:52, said:

Chyros, on 3 Sep 2010, 17:54, said:

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 19:46, said:

An actual Peace Keeping Operation from the outside seems like the only solution at times.

Since when has peacekeeping intervention ever caused any peace?

Uhm... 1945.

Which wasn't really "peace" for long, since the storming of Berlin resulted in it being split between Communist Russia and the rest of the "free world" powers, which we all know lead to the Cold War. By peace I would assume you meant that it was no longer the entire world that was at war.

[Golan]

Sgt. Nuker, on 4 Sep 2010, 13:54, said:

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 16:52, said:

Chyros, on 3 Sep 2010, 17:54, said:

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 19:46, said:

An actual Peace Keeping Operation from the outside seems like the only solution at times.

Since when has peacekeeping intervention ever caused any peace?

Uhm... 1945.

Which wasn't really "peace" for long, since the storming of Berlin resulted in it being split between Communist Russia and the rest of the "free world" powers, which we all know lead to the Cold War. By peace I would assume you meant that it was no longer the entire world that was at war.

No, by peace I mean no one actively trying to exterminate their neighbor country or ethnic minorities - bonus points for achieving this without wiping out my country. And the best thing, I can assure you it worked! Can't remember the last time I had to take a pitchfork to keep those bloody Frogs off my lawn. No Allied Forces peace keeping troops patrolling anywhere near, either.

Edited by Golan, 04 September 2010 - 15:46.

[NergiZed]

Note: didn't read most of the previous comments/shitstorm.

I do think that stepping up attacks now is stupid and base, however, success for the West Bank is failure for Gaza. (Both sides of which, let's face it,are no longer democracies). Hamas probably thinks that it'll provoke the Israelis to leave the talk, at the the very least it'll remind the world that one third of the Palestinians isn't represented in the peace talks.

Looking at the bigger picture, it seems that Gaza is succeeding in a purely territorial sense. While Gaza has successfully defended the borders of their pseudo-state, while the West Bank been, and probably will continue to be, slowly dissolved away by Jewish settlements. Hamas also gains far more international attention with their shenanigans than the PA ever could hope for (and thus the Palestinian Authority is marginalized on the International stage). Obviously this all comes at the cost of the Isreali blockade (which, in an even larger sense probably helps the Palestinian cause at the price of their suffering) and no more Western support (which doesn't help).

Israel is also not helping either. They say they want peace yet they never seem to stop building settlements (not for long at least). To most Israelis though, the whole Palestinian peace process is no longer on their mind; In a recent survey in The Economist, the Palestinian peace process ranked 5th in issues that concerns of the average Israeli, ranking behind things like the Economy, Education, Crime and something else I don't remember. (The peace process obviously ranked first for the Palestinians).

All in all, it doesn't matter. If the talks fail, it's back to the status quo; if the talks are completed, nothing will likely get done with them and thus it's back to the status quo; even if the a remote possibility that some deal forms comes true, it'll most likely deteriorate into the status quo. Nothing will happen simply because Israeli government is perfectly fine with the status quo which is slowly encroach on the West Bank and starve the Gazans until they overthrow Hamas for a less radical (and more cooperative) government. Whatever happens, with time and along with US support, Israel will win in the end. It all really doesn't matter.

Edited by NergiZed, 04 September 2010 - 19:30.

[BeefJeRKy]

Golan, on 4 Sep 2010, 18:41, said:

Sgt. Nuker, on 4 Sep 2010, 13:54, said:

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 16:52, said:

Chyros, on 3 Sep 2010, 17:54, said:

Golan, on 3 Sep 2010, 19:46, said:

An actual Peace Keeping Operation from the outside seems like the only solution at times.

Since when has peacekeeping intervention ever caused any peace?

Uhm... 1945.

Which wasn't really "peace" for long, since the storming of Berlin resulted in it being split between Communist Russia and the rest of the "free world" powers, which we all know lead to the Cold War. By peace I would assume you meant that it was no longer the entire world that was at war.

No, by peace I mean no one actively trying to exterminate their neighbor country or ethnic minorities - bonus points for achieving this without wiping out my country. And the best thing, I can assure you it worked! Can't remember the last time I had to take a pitchfork to keep those bloody Frogs off my lawn. No Allied Forces peace keeping troops patrolling anywhere near, either.

I'm going to sidestep the issue of the Israeli/Palestine conflict for a moment and comment on the UN peacekeeping forces. They aren't particularly useful. The UNIFIL has been around since 1978. And despite that, they are unable to do anything to avoid confrontation between the IDF and first the PLO and later Hezbollah. Even when they try to escort more civilian targets, they are susceptible to fire (like a Red Cross ambulance attacked by Israeli jets in 1994). It could be that the situation here is purposefully kept alight by world powers but either way, UNIFIL has been helpless. But if they are given more military capability, you bring up the issue of sovereignty. In the end, had they not been here, I doubt much would have changed.

[Golan]

Until 2006, UNIFIL was not a peace keeping operation in the sense which was discussed earlier. UNIFIL was created purely as an observing force.

[NergiZed]

I can't think of a single instance where UN troops have actually brought peace. In fact, the most I hear from them is that they bring trouble; they are underpaid and have fuzzy objectives.

Back on topic: linky

Oh hey, now THAT was unexpected. Israel likely to not stop construction of settlements, PA threatens to withdraw from talks, and Hama still exists in Gaza; resume the Status Quo.

[Ion Cannon!]

NergiZed, on 5 Sep 2010, 15:42, said:

I can't think of a single instance where UN troops have actually brought peace. In fact, the most I hear from them is that they bring trouble; they are underpaid and have fuzzy objectives.

Back on topic: linky

Oh hey, now THAT was unexpected. Israel likely to not stop construction of settlements, PA threatens to withdraw from talks, and Hama still exists in Gaza; resume the Status Quo.

What does an outbreak of anthrax in Bangladesh have to do with the talks? ( I presume you posted the wrong link )

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 05 September 2010 - 16:07.

[Major Fuckup]

NergiZed, on 5 Sep 2010, 22:42, said:

I can't think of a single instance where UN troops have actually brought peace. In fact, the most I hear from them is that they bring trouble; they are underpaid and have fuzzy objectives.

Back on topic: linky

Oh hey, now THAT was unexpected. Israel likely to not stop construction of settlements, PA threatens to withdraw from talks, and Hama still exists in Gaza; resume the Status Quo.

And they keep getting their out posts full of foreign journalists bombed.

[NergiZed]

Ion Cannon!, on 5 Sep 2010, 12:07, said:

NergiZed, on 5 Sep 2010, 15:42, said:

I can't think of a single instance where UN troops have actually brought peace. In fact, the most I hear from them is that they bring trouble; they are underpaid and have fuzzy objectives.

Back on topic: linky

Oh hey, now THAT was unexpected. Israel likely to not stop construction of settlements, PA threatens to withdraw from talks, and Hama still exists in Gaza; resume the Status Quo.

What does an outbreak of anthrax in Bangladesh have to do with the talks? ( I presume you posted the wrong link )

Yep

Can't find the original article, but here's something related: Linky

Jewish settlers defied the Presidents orders and started building settlements again. I think the PA will soon threaten to leave the talks.

[Dutchygamer]

This fight won't stop until either of the 2 factions is wiped out.
Simple as that.

[BeefJeRKy]

Dutchygamer, on 6 Sep 2010, 21:08, said:

This fight won't stop until either of the 2 factions is wiped out.
Simple as that.

Unfortunately that is starting to look like the only way out.

Interestingly enough, it should be noted that the Palestinian population growth rate is abnormally high (yes I believe religious leaders are actively promoting procreation). In 20 years, the Palestinian population will greatly outnumber the Israeli one. I wonder what will happen then.

[Chyros]

scope, on 6 Sep 2010, 23:23, said:

Dutchygamer, on 6 Sep 2010, 21:08, said:

This fight won't stop until either of the 2 factions is wiped out.
Simple as that.

Unfortunately that is starting to look like the only way out.

Indeed, exactly my point.

Quote

Interestingly enough, it should be noted that the Palestinian population growth rate is abnormally high (yes I believe religious leaders are actively promoting procreation). In 20 years, the Palestinian population will greatly outnumber the Israeli one. I wonder what will happen then.

Much the same as when the Jews moved into Isreal, I bet.