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Peace keeping in Libya


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#1 Kris

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 23:04

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Obama: US launches military action against Libya

By Brad Knickerbocker, Staff Writer / March 20, 2011



As the US-led attack on Libyan targets approached its third day, lawmakers and other observers began to weigh in on the wisdom and timing of the attempt to stop Muammar Qaddafi’s army from attacking civilians and decimating rebel forces.

On Sunday talk shows, the comments ranged from “too little, too late” to concerns about what any endgame might be as the US engages in a third war in Muslim countries.

Senator John McCain ® says President Obama “waited too long” before taking military action against Qaddafi. And he suggested that the delay means the job will be harder.

Related: With Libya, is 'Obama doctrine' on war emerging?

"If we had taken this step a couple of weeks ago, a no-fly zone would probably have been enough," Sen. McCain said on CNN’s State of the Union. "Now, a no-fly zone is not enough. There needs to be other efforts made."

Senator Richard Lugar, senior Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, wonders "who it is in Libya that we're trying to support."

"Obviously, the people who are against Qaddafi, but who?” Sen. Lugar asked on CBS' Face the Nation. “In eastern Libya, for example, a huge number of people went off to help the Iraqis against the United States in a war that still is winding down.”

At this point, US officials aren’t saying when the coalition fighting Qaddafi’s forces in Libya might be able to pull back from the air and sea assaults.

"I think circumstances will drive where this goes in the future," Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen said on ABC's This Week. ''I wouldn't speculate in terms of length at this particular point in time."

Asked if the fighting might end with Qaddafi still in place, Admiral Mullen said, "That's certainly potentially one outcome."

US policy at this point is that the military action in Libya is about protecting people and not regime change.

But that is not enough, according to some critics of the Obama administration’s limited approach there.

"We should isolate this regime," Sen. Lindsey Graham ® told Fox News Sunday. "This is a great opportunity to replace a tyrannical dictator who is not a legitimate leader, who is an international crook. And we should seize the moment and talk about replacing him, not talk about how limited we will be."

"Once the president of the United States says, as President Obama did, that Qaddafi must go, if we don't work with our allies to make sure Qaddafi does go, America's credibility and prestige suffers all over the world," Sen. Joe Lieberman (I) told CNN.

Leaving Qaddafi in power can never solve the problem, says Ali Suleiman Aujali, who was Libya’s UN ambassador before he denounced Qaddafi and became a prominent figure in the opposition.

"Protection of Libyan civilians is only achieved by one goal, that Qaddafi is not there, not only by stopping his airplanes striking the people,” Mr. Aujali told ABC's This Week. “The danger is Qaddafi himself.”

In pushing for UN approval of a no-fly zone, the US and other western nations felt free to do so because the 22-member Arab League had first backed the effort.

But on Sunday, Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa said the missile strikes and aerial bombing had gone too far.

“What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone,” he said in a statement on the official Middle East News Agency. “And what we want is the protection of civilians and not the shelling of more civilians.”

Mr. Moussa, along with officials from the United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Iraq, Qatar, and Morocco took part in the Paris summit Saturday where the US and its western coalition partners met to discuss imposition of the no-fly zone (which began just hours later).

But so far, only tiny Qatar has agreed to commit military forces in the fight against Qaddaf





Source: http://news.yahoo.co.../lt_libya_obama

Discuss

Edited by TheDR, 21 March 2011 - 11:04.








#2 BeefJeRKy

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 23:22

The alternative was a crazed nut slaughtering three quarters of his population. I'm not exactly ecstatic, but this should have happened earlier back when the rebels had a foothold near Tripoli and a no-fly zone would have given them more impunity while defending themselves. If the US is to do this right, they will leave as soon as Gaddafi is gone. None of the "Nation Building" they tried elsewhere.
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#3 Alias

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 23:33

The main difference between this and the US' recent escapades is this has UN approval, for what it's worth.

As a pacifist I can't condone any violent action, though.

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#4 Chyros

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 00:14

View PostScope, on 21 Mar 2011, 1:22, said:

If the US is to do this right, they will leave as soon as Gaddafi is gone. None of the "Nation Building" they tried elsewhere.
Well of course that "nation building" was never meant in any way to be profitable for the nations they were building but only for the US itself. I agree with you though, they should just leave ASAP when the job is done.


View PostAlias, on 21 Mar 2011, 1:33, said:

The main difference between this and the US' recent escapades is this has UN approval, for what it's worth.
Well perhaps this is because there are actually obviously bad things happening in Libya instead of there being phantom weapons of mass destruction and completely nonexistent bonds to Al-Qaeda. I'm curious to see how th US media will handle it this time, tbh.
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#5 Libains

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 02:20

What I find particularly funny is that everyone seems to think this is another US mission. The US have very very little to do with this 'war'. It's been instigated, and run mostly, by the UK, France and Italy. The US are providing intelligence, and a few cruise missiles. France has hit Libya by far the hardest. It's almost like we've dragged them into a peacekeeping mission, as opposed to it being the other way around, usually. Libya needed intervention, that I can't deny. If this is solely enforcement of a no-fly zone and preventing Gadaffi from nuking the civilians, then I have no qualms with it.

Map showing various nations' input into this.

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Edited by AJ, 21 March 2011 - 02:22.

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#6 Destiny

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 03:06

Hahaha, I don't think 112 Tomahawks are 'some' only :D But yeah, just get that guy out of Libya and all will be good. The US isn't putting any soldiers on the ground.





Aviano base eh...
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#7 deltaepsilon

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 06:00

Missile spam is a viable real-life strategy :D
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#8 Destiny

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:20

Of course it is, I've stressed it many times :D

Let's put it into perspective.



Damn you BBCode!

Edited by Destiny, 21 March 2011 - 07:21.

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#9 SquigPie

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:56

Denmark's in that war too, with about 3 or 4 jets I think...

Hope we still have time to take this bastard down.

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As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
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#10 Destiny

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:58

I'm thinking Qad-hisnamehere will escalate the situation into something bad.
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#11 Dutchygamer

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 09:53

Perhaps change the topic title so it doesn't look like it's just the US doing the fighting in Libya?
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#12 Golan

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 10:55

Indeed, it's quite misleading and actually wrong.
Now go out and procreate. IN THE NAME OF DOOM!

#13 TheDR

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 11:15

I've renamed it.
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F O R T H E N S
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#14 Sgt. Nuker

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:48

From what I've heard over the radio, the US will eventually turn this whole thing over to French-British forces, or even *gasp* UN forces.

Violence is sometimes needed, for diplomacy can come from the tip of a sword.
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#15 BeefJeRKy

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 21:39

Interesting how the Arabs are revolting a little less than a hundred years after the first call for independence from the Ottomans in the early 1900s.

I'm unsure what will happen in Libya if Qaddafi is removed. I'm just hoping he won't be replaced by Salafi/Wahhabi Islamists like in Saudi Arabia.

In other news, Iran welcomed the revolts in Arab states like Bahrain and Libya but conveniently left out Syria and its own people's demands.
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#16 CJ

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 22:54

View PostScope, on 21 Mar 2011, 22:39, said:

Interesting how the Arabs are revolting a little less than a hundred years after the first call for independence from the Ottomans in the early 1900s.

I'm unsure what will happen in Libya if Qaddafi is removed. I'm just hoping he won't be replaced by Salafi/Wahhabi Islamists like in Saudi Arabia.

In other news, Iran welcomed the revolts in Arab states like Bahrain and Libya but conveniently left out Syria and its own people's demands.

In other news, Saudi Arabia is against Gaddafi but seems to conveniently forget that they sent their soldier to slaughters Bahraini protesters.

Also, the US has practically nothing to do with this operation, if anything it should be France which should get most of the credits for once.
AND what I have to say is : took them fricking long enough, like it took them a week to send money to the refugees when the Tunisian government couldn't just keep up with helping them. Thankfully everyone here helped by buying food and goods for them, cause if we had waited for those ONU retards to take a decision, everyone would have starved by now.
When I think that Alias was saying we're less civilized than developed countries... The sweet irony...

View PostChyros, on 11 November 2013 - 18:21, said:

I bet I could program an internet


#17 Wizard

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 22:56

View PostScope, on 21 Mar 2011, 21:39, said:

In other news, Iran welcomed the revolts in Arab states like Bahrain and Libya but conveniently left out Syria and its own people's demands.

And managed to arrest and disappear the public faces of dissent within it's own borders, lest we forget.....

#18 BeefJeRKy

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 23:29

Change all around us but my own country remains stagnant as ever...

And yes, no side is cleaner than the other CJ.

Edited by Scope, 21 March 2011 - 23:29.

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#19 SquigPie

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:14

View PostScope, on 22 Mar 2011, 0:29, said:

Change all around us but my own country remains stagnant as ever...

And yes, no side is cleaner than the other CJ.


Except for Denmark, we are so clean and superior and white and have so much freedom of speech and equality except for non-whites.

Or well, that's not my opinion, but it appears to be the opinion of the government. And thus the majority of my countrymen.

Edited by SquigPie, 22 March 2011 - 07:16.

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As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov

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#20 Alias

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:25

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

Also, the US has practically nothing to do with this operation, if anything it should be France which should get most of the credits for once.
The attack is led by the UK, France and the US.

"In Cairo, the Arab League reaffirmed its support for Operation Odyssey Dawn after the previous day saying the air strikes, led by the United States, France and Britain, went beyond the scope of a UN resolution to implement a no-fly zone."
http://www.abc.net.a.../22/3170155.htm

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

AND what I have to say is : took them fricking long enough, like it took them a week to send money to the refugees when the Tunisian government couldn't just keep up with helping them. Thankfully everyone here helped by buying food and goods for them, cause if we had waited for those ONU retards to take a decision, everyone would have starved by now.
Military operations aren't particularly things to be committed to without due process. All the example you need against that is Iraq.

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

When I think that Alias was saying we're less civilized than developed countries... The sweet irony...
The 5 top donors of recent Libyan aid are the US, EU, Sweden, the UK and Australia.
http://fts.unocha.org/reports/daily/ocha_R..._1103220204.pdf

I've backed my claims up with sources. How about you do the same.

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#21 CJ

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:53

View PostAlias, on 22 Mar 2011, 8:25, said:

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

Also, the US has practically nothing to do with this operation, if anything it should be France which should get most of the credits for once.
The attack is led by the UK, France and the US.

Oh come one, you know that Sarkozy was the one who was pushing all countries in the EU and urging them to do something... He might have done that in the sole hope of regaining some

View PostAlias, on 22 Mar 2011, 8:25, said:

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

When I think that Alias was saying we're less civilized than developed countries... The sweet irony...
The 5 top donors of recent Libyan aid are the US, EU, Sweden, the UK and Australia.
http://fts.unocha.org/reports/daily/ocha_R..._1103220204.pdf

I've backed my claims up with sources. How about you do the same.

Why would I need sources to back my claims, I haven't denied that these countries have helped, but it took them a week before doing so, which is my point. Your sources do not infirm anything I said :D
And here's on the other hand a proof that civilized countries didn't move their arses quick enough : http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/world/eu.../02refugee.html
The important part of this article is this one :

Quote

On Monday, the United Nations said it flew out 216 Guineans, 15 Moroccans and 35 Bangladeshis. On Tuesday, Ghana sent buses for hundreds of its citizens, and on Wednesday, 174 people will be put on a charter plane to Dhaka. So far, the United Nations and the Egyptian Army are the only organizations that seem to be helping.

Since the article was posted 8 days after the refugees began to flee Libya, it pretty much speaks for itself. And if you google the articles about your donations you'll see that they all have been posted on March, at least 6 days after the situation became disastrous in the Lybian-Tunisian checkpoints.

View PostChyros, on 11 November 2013 - 18:21, said:

I bet I could program an internet


#22 Raven

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:57

US F-15 crash lands inside Libya. One crewman saves, other is in the process of being rescued. Cause of crash unknown. I don't think it was brought down by AA fire.

BBC Link

#23 CJ

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:16

The crazy guy is using civilians as cover now btw, the barracks and military bases are full of civilians which makes the US-UE forces task even harder...
And concerning the crash I don't think it was due to the AA either, Libya's got a very rusty equipment, they couldn't take out an F-15 unless they're using suppressing fire...

View PostChyros, on 11 November 2013 - 18:21, said:

I bet I could program an internet


#24 Alias

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:26

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 21:53, said:

View PostAlias, on 22 Mar 2011, 8:25, said:

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

Also, the US has practically nothing to do with this operation, if anything it should be France which should get most of the credits for once.
The attack is led by the UK, France and the US.

Oh come one, you know that Sarkozy was the one who was pushing all countries in the EU and urging them to do something... He might have done that in the sole hope of regaining some
That's besides the point. You were claiming the US was doing nothing. The US (currently) has a larger deployment than France does.
Sarkozy wasn't doing anything more than Cameron was. They were both very vocal proponents of it, as was our foreign minister (and ex-prime minister) Kevin Rudd.

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 21:53, said:

View PostAlias, on 22 Mar 2011, 8:25, said:

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 9:54, said:

When I think that Alias was saying we're less civilized than developed countries... The sweet irony...
The 5 top donors of recent Libyan aid are the US, EU, Sweden, the UK and Australia.
http://fts.unocha.org/reports/daily/ocha_R..._1103220204.pdf

I've backed my claims up with sources. How about you do the same.

Why would I need sources to back my claims, I haven't denied that these countries have helped, but it took them a week before doing so, which is my point. Your sources do not infirm anything I said :D
If you read that report, the figures are for February. The aid was coming in long before any UN resolution. You don't need a UN resolution to drop aid.

View PostCJ, on 22 Mar 2011, 21:53, said:

And here's on the other hand a proof that civilized countries didn't move their arses quick enough : http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/world/eu.../02refugee.html
The important part of this article is this one :

Quote

On Monday, the United Nations said it flew out 216 Guineans, 15 Moroccans and 35 Bangladeshis. On Tuesday, Ghana sent buses for hundreds of its citizens, and on Wednesday, 174 people will be put on a charter plane to Dhaka. So far, the United Nations and the Egyptian Army are the only organizations that seem to be helping.

Since the article was posted 8 days after the refugees began to flee Libya, it pretty much speaks for itself. And if you google the articles about your donations you'll see that they all have been posted on March, at least 6 days after the situation became disastrous in the Lybian-Tunisian checkpoints.
Let's put it this way. Your article says that there is around 150000 people in total. Take away the 60000 Egyptians and you get 90000. That is a bloody load of people.
Heathrow airport averages 67 million people a year, or 180000 a day.
Only if you diverted half of ALL passenger flights that fly into or out of Heathrow every day would you have enough planes to fly them home. If they can't fly, the only quick option is by land. About the only places to go to via land are Egypt and Tunisia. I think it's understandable why it takes a while to happen.

For the aid, read the report I posted above. The heading is "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya Unrest and Neighbouring Countries (Egypt, Niger and Tunisia) - February 2011". Last time I checked February wasn't March. The figures are the March count for the February donations (it takes a while to process that much money).

Edited by Alias, 22 March 2011 - 11:32.


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#25 Sgt. Nuker

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 13:18

According to the news this morning, the Obama administration plans to phase out US involvement in a matter of days, rather than weeks.

As far as the F-15 going down, it could be anything from pilot error to electrical or mechanical failure, to surface to air missiles (just throwing that last part out there).

Edited by Sgt. Nuker, 22 March 2011 - 13:20.

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