104 replies to this topic

[SquigPie]

You know, I realise I might break the flow of the conversation, but I was reminded of a quote by Dostoyevsky:
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

So I wonder, what kind of civilization is England?

[Ion Cannon!]

Our prisons are quite comfy by the sounds of it. Young offenders institutes especially.

When I was doing A2 General Studies we had a visit from a high ranking official from the prison service. He had gone into the job believing people to be intrinsically good and that anyone could be rehabilitated but after 5 years his views had changed considerably. He didn't believe people were intrinsically good or evil, but that we have the capacity for both great good and great evil. He also said that past a point rehabiliation for some was a waste of time and that in terms of the youth offenders a bad egg at 7 will essentially be a bad egg for life.

[Alias]

Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:34, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you read what I posted, I never said spend more on education. I said cut the benefits of those who don't attend education. Cut the benefits of those who aren't actively looking for work. Overhaul your welfare system

Cutting benefits, despite the fact that I signed the petition Ion posted, isn't going to solve the problem. It will actually make it worse. Taking away money from these people will push them into disorder further.

It will cause unrest but it should subside over time. It may not be the best solution but couple it with social work (probably the most under-appreciated job in the world) and it does and will make a difference.

Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:34, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

I'm sure Labour contributed to the problem but to say these things are exclusively solely to one political party is nonsense. This is part of the reason why I am politically independent and never vote for a specific party. Partisanship is a relic of the past.

Distance from this particular problem does alter your perspective. I grant you that the Labour government from 1997 onwards aren't the sole and only cause for what we are seeing here. But having seen the way this country has gone since their election, I can safely state that the leadership of the UK under Labour has had a HUGE influence on what we are seeing now. An influence that no person in the UK can ignore or fail to recognise.

How exactly would the Conservatives prevented the problem, then? What was the primary change after 1997 that you believe caused this?

Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:34, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you haven't noticed, Australia is, politically and culturally, quite similar to the UK. We have these sorts of problems as well, primarily in the Aboriginal community and in low-class whites. I live reasonably close to several lowest of the low-class areas (government housing, etc) and I am not alien to these problems. There is also a juvenile prison reasonably close. Imprisonment and community service do work to an extent, and should to a certain degree quell some of the problems with the current batch. Once you overhaul the welfare system the rest should slowly follow.

Absolutely. Jailing these idiots is a temporary solution at best. As has been stated a few times, the root of this problem lies in the lack of respect for others that these kids have. Not just for others, but for themselves as well. No child or teenager of my generation would have ever, ever dreamed of this. Ever! These kids are raised in a society were they are handed things for doing nothing. Not punished because it's not their fault, they are poor. This has been the way of things now for over a decade. No one takes responsibility for anything, including their own behaviour!

At least I'm proposing solutions that have worked over here. You're not proposing any potential solutions.

[Wizard]

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:51, said:

At least I'm proposing solutions that have worked over here. You're not proposing any potential solutions.

And my contributions to this topic are not based on posing potential solutions, more looking at what has gone wrong. So that is a totally irrelevant point for the discussion at hand imo.

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:51, said:

How exactly would the Conservatives prevented the problem, then? What was the primary change after 1997 that you believe caused this?

The problem that occurred during the tenure of the Labour government was a shift in the handling of the socially deprived. Instead of encouraging a work ethic Labour opted for placation and unsubstantiated handouts. In the early 00's you could rely on the government to give you endless amounts of money if could not be bothered to work. Now, in a country with a debt level that is unsustainable with the welfare system in the state it's in, the cuts are ringing deeper. Labour's philosphy is still to pump money we don't have into services that don't work, as a way out of the debt they got us in. I am sure that a Labour solution would be pay kids to stay at home instead of riot and for those that were arrested, they'd send them on a "disaffected group day trip to an amusement park" instead of applying punative methods of correction. A track that has can obviously been seen to not work as we're in this scenario now.

If you want my honest, personal, opinion, the Conservatives would not have spent 13 years paying lazy, work-shy, uneducated people to do nothing. Whether that would have led to this situation is honestly irrelevant in the circumstances. But I do feel that the police would have less of a hard time dealing with something like this had things been different.

Edited by Wizard, 10 August 2011 - 14:10.

[CJ]

Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:34, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you haven't noticed, Australia is, politically and culturally, quite similar to the UK. We have these sorts of problems as well, primarily in the Aboriginal community and in low-class whites. I live reasonably close to several lowest of the low-class areas (government housing, etc) and I am not alien to these problems. There is also a juvenile prison reasonably close. Imprisonment and community service do work to an extent, and should to a certain degree quell some of the problems with the current batch. Once you overhaul the welfare system the rest should slowly follow.

Absolutely. Jailing these idiots is a temporary solution at best. As has been stated a few times, the root of this problem lies in the lack of respect for others that these kids have. Not just for others, but for themselves as well. No child or teenager of my generation would have ever, ever dreamed of this. Ever! These kids are raised in a society were they are handed things for doing nothing. Not punished because it's not their fault, they are poor. This has been the way of things now for over a decade. No one takes responsibility for anything, including their own behaviour!

Jailing is not even a solution, since it'd cost the government loads of money. I thought the UK already had some problems concerning taxes, I'm fairly sure the taxpayers wouldn't want to pay for these "rioters"' food when they're in prison.

[Alias]

CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 16:09, said:

Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:34, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you haven't noticed, Australia is, politically and culturally, quite similar to the UK. We have these sorts of problems as well, primarily in the Aboriginal community and in low-class whites. I live reasonably close to several lowest of the low-class areas (government housing, etc) and I am not alien to these problems. There is also a juvenile prison reasonably close. Imprisonment and community service do work to an extent, and should to a certain degree quell some of the problems with the current batch. Once you overhaul the welfare system the rest should slowly follow.

Absolutely. Jailing these idiots is a temporary solution at best. As has been stated a few times, the root of this problem lies in the lack of respect for others that these kids have. Not just for others, but for themselves as well. No child or teenager of my generation would have ever, ever dreamed of this. Ever! These kids are raised in a society were they are handed things for doing nothing. Not punished because it's not their fault, they are poor. This has been the way of things now for over a decade. No one takes responsibility for anything, including their own behaviour!

Jailing is not even a solution, since it'd cost the government loads of money. I thought the UK already had some problems concerning taxes, I'm fairly sure the taxpayers wouldn't want to pay for these "rioters"' food when they're in prison.

If you haven't realised, the result of riots cost money too. Police cost money too. Everything costs money.

Tragedy of the commons. Everyone wants a service but nobody wants to pay.

[CJ]

Bullets are cheaper, there, you have it.

[Alias]

CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 16:59, said:

Bullets are cheaper, there, you have it.

I take it you support the Syrian crackdown, along with Tiananmen Square along with every other governmental massacre in history, then?

[CJ]

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 17:11, said:

CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 16:59, said:

Bullets are cheaper, there, you have it.

I take it you support the Syrian crackdown, along with Tiananmen Square along with every other governmental massacre in history, then?

How the fuck dare you compare revolutions against dictatorship to the wrecking caused by morons who think that the government owes them money?
The Chinese, the Syrians, and all those other countries (including, as you seem to have forgotten, my own) have, or are fighting for freedom.
You don't see the Egyptians on the Tahrir Square stealing TVs. You don't see the Syrian protesters burning people's cars. You don't see the Chinese "tank guy" killing his own compatriots just to loot their houses in all impunity.

[Alias]

CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 17:18, said:

Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 17:11, said:

CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 16:59, said:

Bullets are cheaper, there, you have it.

I take it you support the Syrian crackdown, along with Tiananmen Square along with every other governmental massacre in history, then?

How the fuck dare you compare revolutions against dictatorship to the wrecking caused by morons who think that the government owes them money?
The Chinese, the Syrians, and all those other countries (including, as you seem to have forgotten, my own) have, or are fighting for freedom.
You don't see the Egyptians on the Tahrir Square stealing TVs. You don't see the Syrian protesters burning people's cars. You don't see the Chinese "tank guy" killing his own compatriots just to loot their houses in all impunity.

It's the same principle at heart. The governments are acting against their people in the belief they are breaking the law. The motivations may be completely different but from a legal perspective it is the same thing.

Shoot first, questions later does not work, especially in this sort of situation, as there is bound to be innocent civilians caught in the the riot not to mention why bother even having gaols at all if we are going to punish petty theft with execution. Even the 18th century English at least had the courtesy to send all the thieves to Australia.

Edited by Alias, 10 August 2011 - 17:27.

[Libains]

Well lets see if I can't put down a few thoughts of mine that haven't already been adequately put forward by Wiz/Ion, as tbh I share an extremely similar view.

The issue that lies at the heart of this mess is extremely difficult to discern, as it is shrouded by all sorts of external contributing factors. To say that this had nothing to do with Mark Duggan would be wrong, in the same way as saying that an explosion had nothing to do with the match that lit the fuse. As it currently is, the riots have absolutely nothing in common with Mark Duggan. However, if you follow a logical progression of the timeline, you can see how it all comes together.

The initial demonstration was a peaceful one. It was organised for one night only, and was seen as a protest against the shooting of a man many felt (feel?) was innocent (no idea if he is/isn't/etc). Like many other protests, police kept it in check, but there was the inevitable bit of violence breaking out. Almost overnight, the anger surrounding Mark Duggan's death massively increased, as it was used incitefully against the police by those who felt they did not respect the community of ethnic minorities suitably. Thus the riots started. By this point however, it was also painfully obvious that the police were outnumbered, and opportunistic little shites used this time to pilfer, steal, etc. The riots of two nights ago were a prime example of the mix of these riots. Not only were places robbed, but places were set on fire. Like many mobs, mob mentality struck, and people no longer really know what they're fighting for. They no longer realise that this isn't about race, about right and wrong, about respect, about greed. It isn't about anything other than a bunch of bored yobs being egged on by anarchists who are in themselves bored.

My honest opinion is that this has been building, as Wiz has noted, since the 90's. We live in a society where owning a 32" plasma TV is poverty, because its not a 42" plasma TV. Labour has, and always will be, primarily geared towards the people. Every. Single. One. Nobody can suffer, because Labour's view is to make everyone's life better. Unfortunately, this creates complacent, lazy, do-nothings who realise that the easiest way to live is to do nothing. Labour doesn't care who you are or what you do, you simply deserve a standard of life. Whilst this is perhaps an admirable idealogy, it is fundamentally flawed in a first world country, because of what we have recently seen. By making everyone's life bearable, no matter what has happened, no matter what they have done, Labour has created a society in which nobody has to want, and the standard of life even when doing nothing is suitable enough that people no longer need anything more, and want very little. As a result, those things that are wanted are out of reach of their grubby little fingers. because the state is perfectly happy to only let them have one of Sky Sports or Sky Movies, not both. However, being brought up to expect everything and do nothing means that they can't get up and change themselves for the better. This is why the UK is losing pace with the world, imo. Because those of us that do try hard are financially crippled by those who the state has purposefully bred into doing nothing.

These good for nothing lazy arseholes are those that are taking part in the riots. They don't know, or care why they're getting involved. There is a video on the BBC that features two girls talking to the BBC's reporters. They say they're doing it to get back at the government. "The Conservatives, or whoever it is". They don't even know. It beggars belief. The Conservatives are now at a make-or-break point in their political tenure, I believe. The issue here is that the Conservatives are trying to reverse some of the things Labour has done over the past decade or two. By promoting capitalism, and allowing those who prosper to prosper suitably without being taxed through the nose, the Conservatives are change society back to how it should be. No more hand outs. No more state dole to bail you out should you fuck up, or choose not to work. What inspires people to work is that if they don't, there is nothing for them. No plasma TV (not even a 32" one!), no Sky Sports (or Sky Movies!). Be useful, or die. As the quote goes: "Adversity has the effect of eliciting talents which, in prosperous circumstances, would have lain dormant". You can't expect people to make something of themselves if they have no need to make anything at all. Not even an honest wage.

So, solutions. I think primarily that cuts in the public sector, reducing benefits, etc, are as good a means to kill the root cause as any. The dole needs to be suitably slashed after a period of unemployment except for in certain circumstances. The EMA is already being cut, but tbh I see almost no need for it. Just give the kids a bus pass to the local school and be done with it, instead of giving them money in their pocket to buy the latest gadget that they haven't earnt or deserved. Disability benefits need looking at to. Whilst I am fully aware there are scenarios in which this is desperately needed to help families survive trying periods, there are other scenarios that you see in the news, and just can't help but hang your head over: "I've hurt my back and can't work so I sponge off the government". This sort of thing needs to be quashed, or this person needs to go get a temp job somewhere where the government will provide her a special chair so she can work without straining her back from the comfort of her chair, etc. Encourage work, not lazing around.

As to the children, I do believe they are the lost generation. There is no cure for something this rotten to the very cure. The sheer ability of these children to assume that it is OK to carry a gun on the street, to break into stores at night, to firebomb residential buildings, and police offices, to incite violence on social networking, etc, is very, very wrong. I think of children in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Iraq, and other such countries, and I think of how they are brought up to believe in violence and self defence, and I honestly cannot see much of a difference between the youth of the Uk, and that of some third world country. I remember watching Blood Diamond, and remember a quote with regard to respect, that went something along the lines of "If you wish for respect, you must take it". I honestly see the same thing in the children involved in these riots. They are impressionable young people, and I see no way that we can bring them under control anymore - they have made up their minds regards what is right and what is wrong. As much as I agree with Alias that social work is a highly underrated asset in such situations, I fear it is too late now. They are, as I said, lost.

Notably, whilst the riots have brought this issue to the forefront, I do believe most people here who have commented on this topic, both here and in RL have already held an opinion of this society before today. This might, in hindsight, be exactly what this country needs to see what it is becoming, and prompt the conversation and actions that everyone was always too afraid to partake in. It might be about time we stood up, and fixed what is a society that is rotten at the very core. It may be political suicide, but I think the time has come for a political party to stand up and say that it is no longer afraid of the consequences, as long as it can genuinely implement changes that will make our society a better place in the long run. In the short run however, I fear this country is doomed. Either a party stands up, and we see some of the worst riots and strikes since the Thatcher years, or nobody stands up, and the current generation rots the country, increases our debt, and decreases any chance of anybody wanting to invest in a country full of layabouts.

With regard to the concept of shooting the lot of them, it's obviously the wrong thing to do as far as humanity is concerned. But tbh, I'd happily ship the lot of them out to East Africa to help with the humanitarian crisis, or conscript the whole lot into the Army. They need erspective and they need it now. Prison can't achieve that when they can still play on Xbox Live with their homeboys.

[Wizard]

*Claps at TPAM*

If we are actually looking for solutions or even quasi-solutions, I am a very vocal supporter of National Service. 2 years learning how to behave and respect those in authority would do every single generation benefit.

[Golan]

Nice post indeed. Interesting, to say the least.

It seems the most "interesting" and pressing issue is what to do with this "lost generation". This isn't a small band of mishaps, it's a few thousands, ten thousand, perhaps hundred thousands, especially in light that any measures taken against the sources of these social conflicts will take years, most likely decades to fully pay out. It is highly unlikely that any direct "educational" means, be it social work, prison or National Service, will have the capabilities to purge this feeling of opposition - to a degree, all of these approaches rely on breaking the opposition on an individual level, but the phenomenon you are facing is not an individual one.
It's similar to how the police requires a certain base level of positive interaction (mainly compliance after a certain degree of force has been applied), otherwise it wouldn't be able to properly act with being outnumber one to a few hundred of police to citizens. Even military discipline requires a base level of cooperation to achieve authority, you can't expect an officer to hold authority if a sizeable ratio of his subordinates is not willing to accept this authority. There have already been arrests in the numbers of ~1% of the number of active soldiers of the UK's armed forces and the actual number of this "lost generation" might well go from 5% to 10% or beyond.
What do you do to a human that is lost for society?

[Nid]

Some very truthful and interesting points raised. I particularly agree with how things will go back to normality, nothing will change, your thoughts now in the aftermath of all this?

Edited by Nid, 11 August 2011 - 22:05.

[Chyros]

Nid, on 11 August 2011 - 22:05, said:

Some very truthful and interesting points raised. I particularly agree with how things will go back to normality, nothing will change, your thoughts now in the aftermath of all this?

Ah that guy, I know him. To be honest what he says all makes perfect sense to me. I'm not there to witness it all first-hand of course but from what I heard it's pretty much that.

[Rich19]

Wizard, on 11 August 2011 - 07:07, said:

*Claps at TPAM*

If we are actually looking for solutions or even quasi-solutions, I am a very vocal supporter of National Service. 2 years learning how to behave and respect those in authority would do every single generation benefit.

Possibly. There's very little need to pack 99% of the middle class off to the army as well. Perhaps it ought to be an option available to the courts as an alternative to prison.

[Wizard]

Rich19, on 15 August 2011 - 20:22, said:

Wizard, on 11 August 2011 - 07:07, said:

*Claps at TPAM*

If we are actually looking for solutions or even quasi-solutions, I am a very vocal supporter of National Service. 2 years learning how to behave and respect those in authority would do every single generation benefit.

Possibly. There's very little need to pack 99% of the middle class off to the army as well. Perhaps it ought to be an option available to the courts as an alternative to prison.

I'd settle for that being an option. However, it would require some more investment in the military, which is probably not something we have the money for atm. Well, depends on how important Cameron thinks this issue will be come a new election.

[Ion Cannon!]

What do you guys think about what David Starkey said on Newsnight? Doesn't help those idiots kept interrupting him, but I think he had a good point. It will be twisted that he was attacking blacks or all black culture but what he was really talking about was the invasion of gang culture, which is something we should kill by fire.

for those who haven't seen it yet -

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 15 August 2011 - 21:15.

[Wizard]

Ion Cannon!, on 15 August 2011 - 21:14, said:

What do you guys think about what David Starkey said on Newsnight?

I have no idea what he said on Newsnight as I have infinitely more important things to do than watch that.

[Ion Cannon!]

Hence why I added it to my post. I only saw it myself because it was the BBC news website.

[Z_mann]

Sigh.. late to the party as usual >.>

Is it just me, or have there been a lot of riots lately? And not just riots, street violence and general anarchy: I mean look at what happened in Egypt, what's happening in Syria, Spain. Basically a lot of mass and spontaneous aggression. Maybe this is not a local, but a global problem?

[Krieger22]

The Middle Eastern ones are not riots but reform demonstrations that brought reform all right. (except Syria), the Spanish ones are due to budget cuts (They're in the PIGS, for crying out loud) but the recent British ones are just senseless destruction.

[SquigPie]

There haven't been any news about it recently, what happened? Heard they got order restored again.

[Nid]

After about 4 days of stealing the kids got bored and went home to ther mum's house for dinner. It's not like order was restorted, it's more like order restored itself.

[Ion Cannon!]

There has been just over 2100 arrests so far, with a much higher sentence rate than usual, which is the right thing to do I think. However there are certain extremely liberal people and human rights / lawyers getting in the way of course. I consider myself liberal, but I wouldn't give a damn if these rioters were left to rot.