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Swiss move to ban minarets


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#1 Prophet of the Pimps

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 10:53

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6676271.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/6676271.stm[/url]

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A row is brewing over religious symbolism in Switzerland.

Members of the right-wing Swiss People's Party, currently the largest party in the Swiss parliament, have launched a campaign to have the building of minarets banned.

They claim the minaret is not necessary for worship, but is rather a symbol of Islamic law, and as such incompatible with Switzerland's legal system.

Signatures are now being collected to force a nationwide referendum on the issue which, under Switzerland's system of direct democracy, would be binding.

The move has shocked Switzerland's 350,000 Muslims, many of whom have been campaigning for decades for more recognition for their faith.

In theory Switzerland is a secular state, whose constitution guarantees freedom of religious expression to all. In practice however mosques in Switzerland tend to be confined to disused warehouses and factories.

Across the country, there are only two small minarets, one in Zurich and one in Geneva, neither of which are permitted to make the call to prayer. In Switzerland's capital Berne, the largest mosque is in a former underground car park.

Plans rejected

In the small town of Langenthal, just outside Berne, plans to build a very modest minaret have been put on ice following thousands of objections.

Langenthal's mosque is housed in a former paint factory on the outskirts of town.

Mutalip Karaademi, an ethnic Albanian who has lived in Switzerland for 26 years, was at first pleased when his proposal for a 5m-high (16.5ft) minaret was approved by the local authority.

But following a vociferous campaign against the plans, including a petition with thousands of signatures, the cantonal government in Berne delayed the project indefinitely.

"We are very disappointed," said Mr Karaademi. "We just wanted to do our mosque up a bit, with this small minaret and a tea room. We actually thought it might promote dialogue."

Mr Karaademi is also bitter at what he sees as unfair discrimination against his faith. "I even gave them a written undertaking that we would never make the call to prayer," he said. "They seem to think we are all criminals or terrorists - that's like saying all Italians are in the mafia."

Islamic law

But supporters of a ban on minarets say they have no intention of preventing anyone from practising their faith.

"We don't have anything against Muslims," said Oskar Freysinger, member of parliament for the Swiss People's Party.

"But we don't want minarets. The minaret is a symbol of a political and aggressive Islam, it's a symbol of Islamic law. The minute you have minarets in Europe it means Islam will have taken over."

Mr Freysinger's words may sound extreme, even paranoid, but this is a general election year in Switzerland, and the campaign against minarets is playing well with voters.

A recent opinion poll for one Swiss newspaper found that 43% of those surveyed were in favour of a ban on minarets.

"We have our civil laws here," insisted Mr Freysinger. "Banning minarets would send a clear signal that our European laws, our Swiss laws, have to be accepted. And if you want to live here, you must accept them. If you don't, then go back."

Growing resentment

It's a harsh message for Swiss Muslims, many of whom were born in Switzerland. There are fears that the campaign against minarets will provoke growing resentment against Swiss society.

"I think Swiss Muslims will be angry and bitter over this," said Reinhard Schulze, professor of Islamic Studies at Berne University. "And we know that anger and bitterness among a community can lead to radicalisation, even to militancy."

The Swiss government is extremely nervous about the prospect of militancy among Swiss Muslims; three cabinet ministers have already spoken out against the campaign to ban minarets.

There is also a growing fear that the debate will damage Switzerland's traditionally good relations with the Arab world.

But the Swiss People's Party is powerful. If the minaret campaign is, as some suspect, a vote-grabbing ploy ahead of October's general election, then it is a successful one; the party is riding high in the opinion polls.

A constitutional amendment forbidding minarets will have to be approved in a nationwide referendum. In the meantime, no minarets are being built anywhere in Switzerland; the controversy has created a situation in which no local planning officer wants to be the first to approve one.

In that respect, the People's Party may have got what it secretly wanted all along, an unofficial ban on minarets.

So for now, Switzerland's Muslims will continue to pray in abandoned buildings, many with the growing feeling that they are tolerated only as long as they remain invisible.


Again i Go WTF!!!!!!!!!! and that too in Switzerland.
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#2 G-sus

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 10:57

so?
how many minarets i have seen in germany,
but try to build a church in the turkey or even maybe afghanistan...
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#3 Warbz

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 11:09

i hate it when immigrants try to make a country bend to their religion, or their way of life.

your in our country now, you go by our rules.

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#4 Rayburn

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 11:13

 Warbz, on 29 May 2007, 13:09, said:

your in our country now, you go by our rules.


Exactly. We pretty much have the same problems like you guys in Britain.
Some things seem to be even worse on the other side of the channel though.

Edited by Rayburn, 29 May 2007 - 11:19.


#5 Golan

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 12:24

I´m sorry, but while i can understand people beeing offended by having minarets used for the call to prayer, forbiding the construction of even purely aesthetical minarets doesn´t make sense to me. Taking such a law as a basic, church spires could be banned aswell.

 G-sus, on 29 May 2007, 10:57, said:

so?
how many minarets i have seen in germany,
but try to build a church in the turkey or even maybe afghanistan...
I´m quite happy that germany doesn´t reflect some of the retard regulations of theocracies.

BTW, as this seems rather politcal to me... is this topic going to have any chance of survival?

Edited by Golan, 29 May 2007 - 12:27.

Now go out and procreate. IN THE NAME OF DOOM!

#6 Prophet of the Pimps

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 15:00

 G-sus, on 29 May 2007, 16:27, said:

so?
how many minarets i have seen in germany,
but try to build a church in the turkey or even maybe afghanistan...


Are you seriously that ignorant?
http://en.wikipedia....ox_Patriarchate
Turkey is not even Islamic, its constitution ensures that they remain secular and you are free to construct a Church out there. And the question here is of standards. just because people act like intolerant retards in other nations doesn't mean you have to act like one too. I understood the reservation over call to prayer but banning minarets that are at best aesthetic in nature doesn't make any sense and it is actually a freaking travesty of the Tolerance and Freedom the west always touts about on other nations. If this happens i will seriously lose respect for Switzerland.
If this happens i will seriously lose respect for Switzerland.
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#7 General

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:06

 G-sus, on 29 May 2007, 11:57, said:

so?
how many minarets i have seen in germany,
but try to build a church in the turkey or even maybe afghanistan...


Pure ignorance .

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 12:48

If I'd say anything additional here it'd be political so I'll keep my mouth shut. I will just point at G-sus with laughter at his ignorance.
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#9 G-sus

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:04

i´m not offended by these things. literally, i dont care at all though i´m not religious.
because of this i dont care either if some country forbids them.
the buildings look nice sometimes, but neither that is interesting for me.
but there is one thing that really p*sses me off:
5 times a day there is this guy on top of it, shouting his prayers through a speaker in a loudness that you could even hear it on the moon and if are deaf...
and THAT does offend me, especially in the mornin when i try to sleep.
too, anyone else being that loud in the morning would be arrested instantly.
call me ingorant (yeah you already do), but immigration is big time about adaption.

Edited by G-sus, 30 May 2007 - 13:05.

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#10 Waris

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:07

 G-sus, on 30 May 2007, 21:04, said:

5 times a day there is this guy on top of it, shouting his prayers through a speaker in a loudness that you could even hear it on the moon and if are deaf...

I thought call of prayers are banned in Europe?

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:14

There is no spoo... erm, Europe, atleast not that kind of Europe...

@Sic, General
What ignorance? That single country he thoughtlessly mentioned? You should read some german news magazine, watch some news and so on... after three week, it is absolutely impossible to not think of turkey when there´s talk about muslim, non-secularized countries, no matter if you actually know better.

Edited by Golan, 30 May 2007 - 14:12.

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:55

I live in Turkey and I know what it looks like , I don't need a 'German Magazine' to learn about 'My Country'

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 14:13

I´m just trying to say it´s almost impossible to keep an unbiased view towards Turkey due to our media.
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#14 Whitey

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:01

Yep. Media bias is through the roof and it is ridiculous, so his "ignorance" is venial.

Anyway, I'm neutral on the subject. If you look at it one way, it is just a call to prayer. But the call is heard by everyone in the area. A public disturbance I'd like to call it. Just like church bells though, I don't really like em either.

I just feel it shouldn't be up to the religion to determine if they are legal in the state or not.

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:14

 G-sus, on 30 May 2007, 14:04, said:

but there is one thing that really p*sses me off:
5 times a day there is this guy on top of it, shouting his prayers through a speaker in a loudness that you could even hear it on the moon and if are deaf...
and THAT does offend me, especially in the mornin when i try to sleep.


go and buy an air rifle.

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#16 Rumpullpus

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 14:49

people should be free to practice their religon in anyway they want (as long as it doesnt kill anyone XD)

what the government should be doing is looking at their teachings and finding out if they are radical or not because shutting down buildings wont do shit.

Edited by Rumpullpus, 01 June 2007 - 14:49.

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#17 Whitey

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 16:16

No. People should be free to practice their religion as long as it doesn't hinder anybody else.

#18 TehKiller

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 18:52

IMO people should be allowed to practice religion in their homes and in religious building (or however u call the type of building like temples,churches etc....)
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#19 Cozmo

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Posted 10 June 2007 - 12:24

im torn on the subject of people bringing their religions and cultures to other counties. in the uk it is really bad, i sorta think poeple should have the right to live their own lives, but there is complete double standard, if we went to iran (in a peace time, no tension or anything) and tried to bring over christinaity we would be shot on the border.

we are too leaninent in the uk, if a imigrant is not given a job for totaly innocent reasons they can very easy cry discrimination. in egypt white people have to be under armed guard most of the time becuse the people there are hostile thats how they repay us for letting unknown numbers of them into our contry?

personaly i think its is completely stupid the government made this dicrimination thing and now it has completely backfired on them with too many people taking advantage.
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#20 smooder

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 15:15

Mosques should be adapted to fit the architecture in europe.
Minarets do not fit in europe.

they look stupid here.

And I cant believe people are saying "no no no" to perfectly good buildings but turning europe into Arabia is absolutley fine?

They should look european.

and shouting out from towers or whatever shouldnt be allowed (I dont think it is here anyway)

#21 Areze

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 15:42

The minaret is a tower to call Muslims to pray at the mosque.

Why there are going down IIRC and why they cause a problem is poor placement. Your not supposed to put a freaking temple next to houses. If I could build a city there would be a "religious center" where all the Mosques, Synagogues and Churches would go. Around it would be the merchant sector, then the homes so people are nice and far away from the loud Call-to-prayers/Bell/Whatever Synagogues use. But when they go out to buy stuff, they are in range to hear them and head in to talk to god or whatever (I never went to Church ever). If you get up at 12:30 PM, why the hell would you expect there to be a mass that late!? Last time I checked they go on around 9:30/10:00 AM.
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#22 AllStarZ

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 21:58

Stuff like this just begs for unnecessary trouble.

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 00:11

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im torn on the subject of people bringing their religions and cultures to other counties. in the uk it is really bad, i sorta think poeple should have the right to live their own lives, but there is complete double standard, if we went to iran (in a peace time, no tension or anything) and tried to bring over christinaity we would be shot on the border.


Damn,, you should try living in Australia. Unfortunately there's three types of people in Australia.

- The sort who thinks we should be embracing all cultures from all walks of life.
- Racists
- People who are open to other cultures and are welcome to practice it, but expect people who come to Australia to be Australian and respect that others can believe whatever they like.

If you're part of the 1st group, you think the third group are racists.

I dont mind minarets, whatever, but if their placement is in breach of a particular non-religion-based law, then tough. find a different place of worship.
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#24 Thinker

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 02:17

 Rayburn, on 29 May 2007, 11:13, said:

 Warbz, on 29 May 2007, 13:09, said:

your in our country now, you go by our rules.


Exactly. We pretty much have the same problems like you guys in Britain.
Some things seem to be even worse on the other side of the channel though.


Are you kidding me imagrants and people are what make a country so respect them. If a country only has one type of people it would suck. A country shouldnt do that to other religions. If you take away there biuldings there still gunna do the same thing somwhere else and the media will make your country look like its picking on muslims who are already racially attacked in other countrys. Doing that could cause a rebilion within that religion and would make your country look bad in the media to. So why do that its pointless there still going to figure out another way to do it. Correct\scorn me if im wrong.

Edited by thinker, 12 June 2007 - 02:18.


#25 Areze

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Posted 12 June 2007 - 03:05

If you let immigrants slide too much, they'll expect more and more and leech off you. Like how some Hispanic immigrants want us to print the pledge in Spanish, I say "LEARN THE FUCKING LANGUAGE!! ESPECIALLY IF YOU EXPECT US TO LEARN YOUR LANGUAGE IN YOUR COUNTRY!! YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL!!" Sorry if I come off as racist, but it is already happening here in the U.S. You have to show them that you won't bow to their demands. They should follow the law just like everyone else. If your media portrays you badly, then that's the bleeding-heart media, control them, like we need to do with the fucking paparazzi or whatever.
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