So you think you can take on the world, eh?

The world is competitive place. There's no doubting that everyone is out to make it on their own, and everyone has an objective in life (or nearly everyone). In life, that is something that should be cherished and noted in an individual, it is dynamism, and bloody useful. Now we come to where we all are today, right at this point in time. At a computer. On the internet. The issue with the internet is that there are limitless areas that can be filled by ill-equipped idiots who all think alike, but believe they are individuals. How many websites do you know that have been failed startups, with people all believing they offer the world something great, new, dynamic. There have been half a dozen spin-offs from FS alone, all of which have never fully prospered, and are now shovelling money in the direction of hosting companies and software providers so that they can sit there and reap a few hundred hits a day. Out of somewhere along the lines of a possible 2billion internet users. Get real.

So what causes this? This severe disintegration of community values? I'd factor in two things. First is self importance. Self importance amongst people who feel they have something better to offer the world, and it is so fantastic it must be shared to everyone on the web. That's great, but this person hasn't got the first clue on how to advertise themselves. Nor is their idea unique. They're setting up a clan. They're setting up a forums to discuss the fantastic traits of Intel processors. Guess what. There's tens of thousands of other clans. Dozens of other, better established forums discussing Intel processors. So why is yours better? Are you going to put a shoutbox on your forum? Or any number of other useless pieces of extensibility softwre that only detracts from the main function of your site, and allow it to devolve into crappy spam instead of a proper discussion. Look at nearly every social network that there is and ever has been. They don't work anymore because in trying to extend a user's experience, you alienate the user base you were trying to attract. Look at Bebo. I was once a member. Then they added all sorts of shite, and I left and moved on to Facebook. I imagine as Facebook become more and more full of absolute trash, I shall move onto something as equally basic, because that is what I know. It is what most people know. So in offering something 'better' you only attract a few people. Your site goes nowhere. Your individual dream folds. You waste money and time and effort.

Secondly, you have the issue of self-worth. It is often greatly over-exaggerated, and as a result, leads to the spirit of cooperation being thrown out of a seventy storey building with nothing but a post-it note attached to it's chest, which states 'I can do better on my own'. Well, a wake up call for you matey. Most of the greatest achievements of all time have come about through cooperation. In an era where everyone is fighting it out for a slice of a pie, people tend to forget that there are ten other sites out there that are bigger, larger, better, brighter, etc. If you are going to provide a service, and on the internet, you could probably cut out approximately 99.99% of all websites, and you'd still be able to do everything you do every day. You read the news? Go to the BBC. You like modding info? Go to ModDB. You want to order your shopping? Go to Amazon or Tesco Online/Walmart. So where the hell does that leave the little men, those who are trying to do this for a bit of fun, but also to make something of themselves? Absolutely fucking nowhere. Because there will always be people who want to go it on their own, and the thought of being part of an unbiased system where you don't have control is too little. With the internet, you can have yourself in your own place in 30minutes flat, if that. But you will then fall into the trap of going bigger and better, and thus alienation. Or you can copy the way a website runs, and then realise that because you're the same, people will stick with what they know and not bother with a new registration. Registrations are an issue that people still don't fully understand, and while it is very easy to register for something, some people don't have the will to ever do so. Look at The Times website, which thirty days ago, would not let you view the site without registering. It's traffic fell by 40% in that last month. If you're the same as something else, you will not take everyone with you, nor even a decent proportion, it's just too much hassle.

The issue that I am trying to put across here is the spirit of community cooperation. There isn't any, because people are too ignorant, arrogant, and unwilling to yield power, and because they feel too important. Consider what would happen should ten modding communities merge to create one community. It would grow massively overnight, and would likely prosper by pooling resource. But it won't happen because of the human condition: individuality. By providing for it too much in manners in which are affordable and have very little risk attached, the community service providers are killing communities rather than supporting those that stand.

Of all the time I have spent on the internet, I remain convinced that Fallout Studios remains one of the most unbiased places that can be found online, aside from the BBC. We don't cater for adverts, we don't prioritise mods, projects, or anything else. We live for our community, and our mods. We do what we do because we can, and because we care. It is with remorse, and pain that I see new websites start up daily, all of which have no chance of survival because they want to go it alone. One day people will realise there exist services for people like themselves, and they are places like Fallout. I could, without a doubt, happily point at a dozen communities that are failing, and say in no uncertain terms that I would be happy to take them onboard, and breath what little fresh life into them that we can do here. But it requires a leap, from one community or more, to start a process to reinvigorate communities, members, and projects. Individually we are weak, together we are strong.

Thus, I extend an invitation. Help make the internet stronger, and less divided. Forgo your petty indifferences, your aspirations of personal success. There are places for those, but the internet is not one of them. Instead, through camaraderie and success as a single combined entity, find what you are looking for. I see these clans, these forums, desperate to make something of themselves, and instead folding. There are places that can help, there are people that can help, accept, and embrace you. Look to them, and you may yet find that you are stronger and more successful for it. So, if you have a forum, a clan, a project, an idea, tell me about it. What can you do today?

Edited by AjPod, 03 July 2010 - 22:38.

Its a shame you couldn't have made that post shorter and snappier, because although you made some good points, people are by nature lazy. And thats one of the things I am going to talk about myself.

FS in my eyes has a problem, a problem with admins. In particular admin laziness, this has happened before and will no doubt happen again.

The root of this lies in the fact that although someone enjoys and likes being part of something *In this case FS* that doesn't mean they are willing to put much effort into it. This "admin laziness" was apparent during the later SWR time and has recently again become noticable. This was ended by the duo of Dauth and Wizard for a while, who both worked extremely hard, and put alot of time and effort into FS. You probably noticed, a while back there was alot going on, and talk of even more stuff. We had game servers, mod hosting for non ZH mods and were in advanced talks with some very proficient and well known mods to transfer hosting here.

This has all come to a halt though. Because certain admins just can't be bothered or plain can't put the time in.

What FS needs is motivated admins, who have available free time to provide what the community needs. And i'm sorry but I feel certain admins just don't fit this category. To prevent rumours and the like i'm just going to name the individuals.

Codecat - You've been here years, but you never do anything, you are essentially redundant and IMO someone else should take your place.
TheDr - While you've not been an admin very long, so I don't have that much to judge on, your just not really willing to put that much effort into it. This is echoed in various other things such as the Machinima project, it was a good idea, but if you didn't have the time or will to put anything into it, why start it?

I'll end there, and I hope to see some input from others as well, this is important stuff.

I'm more or less in agreement with what has been said above, and I'd like to make a few points about some mods that have had a lack of updates and even more than that, a lack of even being here. Unfortunately, I can't talk about anything upcoming even though I really should have been able to by now. We were meant to get new projects months ago.

If these don't pull through any time soon, the only option for the survival of all our communities will be a merge and a small purge of certain people in positions that grant them power. However, we have people who would rather hold on to the scraps of power they have than see their communities bloom and live on even after they've retired or moved on. Now, some may argue that they enjoy the respect that comes with being an admin. To that, I can only say that respect does not come from power. Dauth and Wizard are still very respected members of our community, and they hold almost no power other than what they can change with their opinions. I shouldn't have to say that their opinions are still a powerful factor in what decisions are made.

I honestly hope to see not only the opinions of the moderating and admin teams on this topic, but also those of the members of the community. After all, the community is what makes the forum the way it is, not the staff.

Edited by Hobbesy, 04 July 2010 - 00:12.

There is nothing more I can think of to add to this discussion than my agreement with the points given by the above posters and the original topic opening. We, as the community of Fallout Studios, but also, in a greater part, the users of the Internet on itself, should halt our current direction into a fractured organ incapable of performing any major tasks and change into a more unified entity, in which powers are, for example, pooled, and costs, for example, servers, are saved.

I once heard there was a discussion for the creation of a community model/texture pool for use by the mods of Fallout Studios, what, for example, happened to that plan? Did it get scrapped? Were there not enough people interested? Was its flame extinguished in the planning fase?

I'm only posting here because Sean told me to. I don't really think its my place to comment but since he insisted:

I think we all got pretty big heads. Back when I was a mere beta tester here, I too became a little too ambitious with my own good although I had noble aspirations to make the community a better place along the way. What really caused the split was the splinter factions. In the time there was just Prophet, Andre and Codecat there was a certain balance then it started to have many people there. Splinter factions started to form and well, people where a little too loyal to their group, like voting for things that would benefit them the most. Almost like political parties really but that's just politics, although a really pathetic version of it.

We just need to settle aside our differences and not let get hot headed over every little thing. Picking sides and taking things too seriously or too personally was what snowballed the situation.

If we made dialogue before shooting missiles there'd be a different situation.

Edited by Overdose, 04 July 2010 - 00:32.

Likewise I'm more or less in agreement with most of the things that have been said, especially Hobbesy's points. We have something like 15 mods, and how many of them are actually active? 4? Likewise, whatever happened to those Source mods we were allegedly getting? The forum is falling further into stagnation and we need to do SOMETHING to change that. New mods would help, but if we do get new mods, I think we should seriously consider kicking some of the less active mods out, or relegating them to that nonspecific game modding forum we've got. We can't afford to be inclusionist (that a word?) in our modding choices, I think.

Of course, this is all operating on the assumption that we even HAVE a solid community. And I think we've more or less splintered. We've got the TF2 server, to be sure, and a few holdouts from the C&C days, but ultimately, we do not have anything this community is anchored to beyond a vague focus on game modding. SYD doesn't count, either.

So just to sum my two points up: The modding needs an overhaul, and we need something to actually focus our community on rather than our little clique-like groups.

Edited by Foxhound, 04 July 2010 - 01:55.

AjPod, on 4 Jul 2010, 6:36, said:

I disagree.









<----------- Disagreement of statement.

That needed to be shorter and less melodramatic and the point still would have hit home.
So people like lone wolfing it so what? let them fail, they will go through the realization of practically every thing, or close to every thing of what you have said and maybe join up into a community.
My biggest yarn with FS so far is how little info is given about mod progress. I love playing SW and i play it a lot but im still holding out for the next update.

Edited by Major Fuckup, 04 July 2010 - 01:58.

...but ShW isn't hosted here anymore

Fallout is the best its the only place were people don't drop the N bomb on you
every time i try to get into another community , every single time i compare it to fallout , fallout tops it to a extreme.

Just about every other ZH mod hosting sites suck to or the "Community" is non existent.
Quite honestly i don't know any forum better or with people any smarter then with fallouts has to offer.
and i certainly think there the Least biased group of people I've met. Quite enjoyable to hang out over here quite honestly. :v

Edited by Aaron:Wii, 04 July 2010 - 02:14.

Destiny, on 4 Jul 2010, 10:03, said:

Well there you go! AJ's point is proven. Why wasn't i informed that the mod buggered off?

Major Fuckup, on 4 Jul 2010, 10:19, said:

...h...hahaha, you're...kidding right? No, you're not kidding me. You missed out on their leaving, I think.

Destiny, on 4 Jul 2010, 10:30, said:

Im not kidding i had no idea that it left!

*facepalm

Now that that's out of the way...

I can't think of any other really active modding communites for CNC series games, though I'm focused more on Zero Hour. Sleipnir's Stuff - the second-most active community I've seen - just died, CNC Den has never been very active at all for modding, Revora isn't terribly active either, and I can't really think of any other modding communities. Anybody know of any others?

Regarding SWR, I think that separating was a very damaging move for both communities. SWR is the biggest example of what this very topic is about, splitting away to try and aspire to personal greatness. When was the last media update for RotR, the project that the Shockwave team had switched over to? January, some six months ago. And Shockwave, the very mod that eventually led to their separation? July... of last year. And 768 members pales in comparison to Fallout Studios' 4999. (Although it seems we cannot pass that magic number... ) And SWR's modding forums aren't really all that active either.

I'm a fair bit concerned regarding the future of the C&C modding community as a whole, to say the least. I never really leave to any other forums, because there just isn't anything for community elsewhere from what I know of. Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I'm just not seeing it.

-Jordan

Edited by Jordan, 04 July 2010 - 03:00.

I tend to agree with Ion, as that is the position I've held for a long while. However on the other side, I would feel a bit awkward if I was an older member than all of the admins. It already feels strange to have so few of the original community that built this place gone. Stinger's brief return triggered something in the fact it made me realise how few of those original members are left. Call me a nostalgic elitist all you wish, but in my opinion, the high point of these forums was late 2006/early 2007. These forums have never again reached what is was at that time. Perhaps it is time for me to just become part of the furniture.

I also do tend to agree with the point that the community here is the strong point. It is the reason I asked to be unbanned, as there really isn't any other place (on the internet, that is) that I've been to that I know so many people. The problem is the community is becoming too detached. I remember back when SWR split how many members here lashed out against them... SWR mods are what built this place into what it is now. Not so much now as in the past, but I can assure you that just about every member (>90%) who joined before the middle of 2009 joined because of one of these mods. There is so little mutual respect these days it disgusts me. Part of the reason I was such an arse here after SWR left was because of how ignorant most of the people here were, that doesn't excuse the behaviour, of course, but it does show you what division does. Not to mention there's the whole lot of things which were good ideas and which got the community excited, but never materialised. The mascot, the news team, the machinima, etc. The problem is there is not enough cooperation between the community and those higher up, this has been a problem for a while now.

Mutual respect is required. I am fine with SWR splitting as I know how Hunter works, but there are those who sadly do not have the experience I, or some of the few others here have. If they want to split, so let it be.

Edited by Alias, 04 July 2010 - 03:22.

I would think every one here agrees that FS has gone down hill after SWR left.

Major Fuckup, on 4 Jul 2010, 3:21, said:

Yeah, I've heard shockwave brang quite abit of attention to the forums.

tl;dr

But if I understand the gist, you are suggesting that mods benefit from such support as a giant community like FS under them? And from this it can be drawn that cooperation is always better than individualism.

Ronald Coase wrote a book on the theory of the firm, if I recall correctly from my research paper, discussing why firms form. Well, it makes sense, right? Pooling resources allows more work to be done faster and more efficiently. In the production of clothes, if all were focused on the individual, that individual would have to create the yarn, turn that yarn into fabric, and sew that fabric into clothing. But specialization allows individuals to focus on one area of expertise in the process. One man does this, another takes that and does something else, and passes it on to the next.

This theoretically would work with mods. You have the skinners, the modelers, the coders, etc right?

But what happens when you do this?

Everything looks the same. Because you have the same skinners working on 8 different mods, the same modelers on those 8 mods, et cetera.

I came across this issue when I was in my golden time of particle making. I noticed that my particle effects were often very similar in style and construction from one project to the next and thus I had the begin diversifying my effects so they did not look exactly the same from project to project.

Thankfully, it is fairly easy for one person to diversify his work. But managing this issue with multiple skinners each working on multiple projects? That's no easy task.

If not handled properly, and I seriously doubt many in the modding community are really ready to handle it, you end up with a big old melting pot and you might as well be producing one or two super mods, because when the ideas, the skin and model types, the effects, and all else become shared resources, diversity diminishes.

It's like owning a Versace shirt and a Prada shirt. Both designer shirts, both very unique. And then you go to Wal Mart and buy two different shirts.. and yet they both have that distinct Wal Mart feel.

Eh?

agree that FS is the best place I can find for a community. there's something that FS have but not in other place.

for modding productivity problem, it's also a dilemma. we want the projects keep running, but maybe have lack of new breeds of modder (I see the most wanted is skinner), and the current modders are also can't be so productive because some real life problems or just too lazy to mod atm.

Jordan, on 4 Jul 2010, 9:58, said:

I admit that the community quite dying, Deezire also now just hanged by some newbs and maybe have no more know-all people.
CnCMaps still active producing new maps (mostly for CNC3 and CNC4, but there's for ZH sometimes), it's also the place where Beng still around. at least the modding not really dead there, there's still people asking how to do things in ZH.

but from many dying communities, I see there's some potential new forums/places for CNC like C&C Reality and GRANS. they just need more publications and active members.

Aaron:Wii, on 4 Jul 2010, 10:33, said:

yeah, I hope EC can bring fresh air.

Edited by n5p29, 04 July 2010 - 03:56.

Heh, I get on just fine without a skinner. I've only made two custom textures myself for the Crazy Mod, everything else I just use stock EA textures for.

My problem when it comes to modding is that my desire to mod comes in fits and spurts. I am active for a few months, generate tons of content, and then die out completely for a while. Other hobbies have been competing for my interests, and I like to focus on one at a time. Most recently were modding Trackmania United Forever, a popular online-heavy racing game, and NERF modding. At least I'm still modding in some way.

I've never heard of C&C Reality or GRANS before. I certainly hope that they can also help bring new life to the modding community.

I don't think that new mods alone are going to be enough to bring new life to the community. I mean, just look at all the mods here. I don't even think half are as active as they should be. The mods section of the forums is inflated with them. Admittedly, EC does seem to be of a higher caliber than many of them, but even they are having major issues too such as RL conflicts and the like.

-Jordan

Working 12 to 13 hours a day does impede on my ability to be here
We should get off our asses and get SWR back here!

I have no any further comment as you guys already make good points about them.

Amdrial, on 4 Jul 2010, 8:30, said:

It wasn't scrapped, people are just downright greedy and always worries about getting "Credited".

Hunter, Fritz, Chrizz are the only people that i remember releasing really high quality models with textures for free public use, i've also done my fair share back then; After that, people just got greedy in sharing models or other assets.

If the people aren't greedy and fame hungry, that planned community pool of art assets would be still very active to this day.

Personally, we can really learn from the Sim City community, just look at simtropolis' "ST Exchange" alone and see the huge pool of seriously high quality mod and art assets available for the masses. Not only that, they also coordinate to other Sim city forums and share assets back and forth instead of competing each other.. If we do the same here, the Zero Hour modding community would be still alive and kicking just like the community of Sim City 4.

Edited by Kris, 04 July 2010 - 04:30.

Some of the problem might be from the lack of communication between communities. Links from one forum to another are rare, except for the case in which someone posts a link to a tutorial in another forum. If we started getting affiliated with other websites than Pacman42, our community could branch out to help others, and vice-versa. Then, it would be much easier to find what public assets there are since everything would be connected.

One example I am a major fan of is that of Trackmania United. Everything is central to one website, the Trackmania Exchange, or TMX. From TMX, you can branch out to Carpark, a massive database of cars you can download for use in the game, tm-tube, a dedicated video site, imagesPark, a dedicated image hosting site, TM-Mod, the modifications resource site, and plenty others. And all these links are available from the front page of TMX.

My suggestion would be to bolster the affiliations on the front page with links to other modding communities, and have them add us to their list of affiliations. There's a massive disconnect between communities now, and we need to bridge that gap.

-Jordan

Heh, AJ really make it sound like the end of Fallout, but perhaps it is, a slow, painful one. I'm just an ordinary idealistic teenager, and I do not have sufficient knowledge of how to lead, manage a community or of politics. But I can tell you what I think as a modder, who also mods at SWR. Indeed, a motivated and good leader is necessary. Frankly, SWR is crumbling simply because Hunter lost interest, and there's no one to replace him. I do not care anymore if I get fired for saying this, all I want is for Shockwave to be released so people are interested again, however one may argue such interest may be short living.

As such, I'll support any action by the admins that my common sense deem logical. And one of that, is the unification of the community. There's a saying in Chinese, divided people is just like a plate of sand, easily washed away. How to do that? I have no idea, but perhaps that affiliation idea is a start.

n5p29, on 4 Jul 2010, 11:55, said:

I think this all stems from the fact that there's a lack of new members. By whatever means, we need fresh meat new members.

Kris, on 4 Jul 2010, 12:20, said:

You know, I don't get why people care so much about other people stealing their models, because mods are free anyway. Personally, as long as people don't take my stuff and claim it as theirs, I'm fine with it, even if they just say that it's a public model from somewhere.

I suggest following Dawn of War's Firestorm over Kaurava's open source policy. From their ModDb profile:

FoK ModDb profile said:

A true open source policy. It's kinda a shame how easy it is to extract mod stuff in ZH, yet people are too selfish to allow that. This is not a decision admins make, and as such I urge modders to follow FoK. That is not necessarily releasing models in a pack, just state that when you release your mod. Think of it, wouldn't it make people download your mod?

Mmm, that's all. I'll just sit at some corner and observe now. :3

We might need new members, but we certainly don't need more Masonicons...

if we ever get another masonicons then

Aaron "Like masicon people"