Sometimes I wonder how people can believe that a being which they confidently describe as being unable to teach without mass-genocide and eternal suffering is worth being worshiped.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
If any points don't make any sense, please let me know so I can elaborate.
Pretty much all of them seeing that most of your argumentation is based in itself on your believe itself.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
Well, consider this, why was the tree placed there in the first place? Why was humanity given free will? It was not simply for God's own pleasure, instead it was for humanity to take a course. Humanity was CREATED to violate God and defy him, as such is the example of the tree, it was placed there for humanity to EAT from even though they were told not to.
I don't believe that
The Tree was created by god (or the rest of
The Eden stuff), so IMO there also was no purpose to it. Even if there were (not saying that there is), it wouldn't make the plan any less retarded.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
Remember that God created humanity with free will and not as an object to please HIM, but instead as a sentient being fully aware of everything around him and his/her own choices. The whole point of humanity is to make choices. If God does exist, what it wants from us is not blind faith, but instead it wants us to EVOLVE. But not evolve physically, instead it wants us to evolve MENTALLY and in terms of UNDERSTANDING. And for this, there must be testing and violence. Humans are simply animals, and the ONLY way animals can learn an enduring lesson is through making mistakes, and if they result in pain or violence towards that animal, then the animal learns to avoid that all the better, or at least TRY to prevent it (yes, I'm comparing ALL of humanity to ONE being, there is no difference in reality).
*skips the issue of God creating us in the first place*
Fully aware? Do you have eyes in the back of your head? Can you sense EM-fields? Are you able to see in IR-spectrum?
If we are nothing but animals, then why are you preaching that he's testing us, not other animals as well? God is all-powerful, so why would he want us to learn in the first place when she could have created us in a state
absolutely equal (all powerful, remember?) to us having it learned the hard way? Why didn't he create us differently to begin with, so that we could learn
without slaughtering each other?
There is a very drastic difference between a single human and humanity as a whole. A single human will learn but also in time whither and die. Humanity doesn't learn, it evolves - assuming that yes,
God would be the kind of retarded bloke to have such a plan, then the last generation of humanity would be
exactly the same as if humanity had been created with all the knowledge it was meant to learn in the first place.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
My examples are the prophets themselves. Gods' greatest prophets and disciples are those who defied him. Moses defied God on MANY occassions, as did Noah, Elijah, Abraham, [...]
I do not belief in any of
The Prophets so the argument is void to me as well as all others that share this disbelief.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
Now, why does God want to be understood? Simply because god is not a completely selfish being. If one were to follow what the bible implies, God is understanding, unselfish, and benevolent in regards to men and ALL life, this is most especially exemplified in the New Testament where God seems MUCH more forgiving than in the Old Testament. It can be stood to reason that God wants to share power, and certain acts seem to imply that as well as the "ascencion" of some prophets (Elijah, for example, or Jesus who was a God made from a Human (ascended to become a God)). Heaven might even be seen as a smaller extension of this plan as what Heaven is implied to be is enlightment, knowledge and peace of self.
So he created us the way we are only to because he felt that the beings he created should accompany him? Isn't that sort of a circular argument? We were created in this way because we exist, and exist because we were created in this way? If he's not selfish, then why go through all the genocide, millions of lifespans worth of pure torture, eternal damnation for trillions of souls and what have you only to get some company?
Besides, if
God is all powerful, omnipotent [...] there can only be one. Every being ascending to this godhood would have to merge with God, who would, for the matter of being all powerful, all seeing, all knowing etc., already have any information and trait this newly assimilated personality holds.
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
And of course, I am not saying you can gain God's favor by killing, that's not what I mean by questioning him. Killing, stealing, adultery, etc. would be a hinderance to any plan to reach some tiny form of near-perfection as it can lead to the extinction of the human species, now more than ever (and let us not forget that once a woman was used as a scapegoat to start a massive war- The Trojan Wars) in a world filled with Nukes, Super-Bio Weapons, and so on. So, of course, the whole point that killing is questioning is actually redundant, it THREATENS the aforementioned plan.
If
God is omnipotent and omniscient (if not, then he isn't God), then his plan
cannot fail. So why should killing be bad? You even said it is an integral part of his plan, so someone's got to do it, no?
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
God created a multitude of religions to appeal to a BROAD number of people, and not just a select few that will follow it. Instead, we try to spread OUR OWN PERSONAL belief by the tip of the blade (or the tip of a bullet as things are now) insted of accepting beliefs that are so fundamentally the same that only a FEW indiscretions are what seperate them. The truth of the matter is that having MANY religions is a GOOD thing because it can apply to many people (I'm, of course, only talking about more-or-less reasonable religions, unlike Scientology which I believe to be COMPLETELY bloody insane) and it means that it causes more diversity in people which God seems to enjoy, and it is also a diversity that would help such a plan.
Isn't the very reason that we try to spread our own beliefs with violent means that there are so many different beliefs in the first place? If there was only a few fundamental beliefs needed, then why not create
one religion for this fundamental base and leave the remaining freedom to the people instead if again making sure that we smash each others heads to the best of our abilities?
And for that matter, how can you know that Scientology isn't just as well part of his plan for more diversity?
Zero, on 23 May 2009, 23:34, said:
So, in conclusion, god wants to be questioned and understood (or else "blasphemous" things such as science and doubt would not exist at ALL), not simply followed, it wants to create leaders to lead and help evolve. If humanity were to simply follow Religious Law "Letter-by-Letter" it would cease to exist of any of a million factors, and if continued to massacre each other, the same thing will happen. Instead, it means that humanity should not fight religion, but instead doubt and raise questions when he feels it necessary instead of saying "God said so." Questioning is the basis of the Scientific Method, and it is alos the basis of LIFE and advancement itself. So, doubt, question, and know that religion will forgive you for that is its purpose, to explain and help evolve, not to simply give a moral code and reward and punish.
Again, why would
God want to be questioned in the first place? He's
God for crying out loud, he has to be right by definition. Why would he want to be understood if we aren't even remotely capable of it anyways?
If we don't fight religion, how can we doubt and question it? Doubting and questioning a religion means opposing it in its current form. One can fight things without violence and by doubting and questioning something one does. You yourself claimed Scientology to be something worth opposing.
And by the way, it wasn't long ago that religion did NOT forgive doubting it. At least not without some proper burning, chopping, slicing and torturing.