TF2 Spawn Killing
CodeCat
07 Feb 2010
You also have to consider how likely and/or viable spawnkilling and camping are for each class.
Scout:
- Kill: Can easily spawnkill if it is to pick off a single person. Viable if to take down people by surprise or to take out teleporters.
- Camp: Can't spawncamp, not strong enough to survive because by camping he sacrifices his speed - his only main strong point.
Soldier:
- Kill: Has more trouble getting to the spawn due to his low speed, so if he gets there he has had to jump through quite a few hoops already. Not terribly viable.
- Camp: Unlikely, but if you make it to the spawn as a soldier, and then have enough health left or a medic, then it can be pretty destructive.
Pyro:
- Kill: Easy because of the pyro's speed and health, but most pyro attacks are suicide anyway unless übered. Viable as for the scout if to take people down by surprise or for tele killing, though less likely to succeed.
- Camp: Doesn't have enough health to stay around, and to kill people he has to be in their faces. A single heavy spells doom for any spawncamping pyro. Can be dangerous with medic support though.
Demoman:
- Kill: Not as likely, demomen are better used elsewhere, most spawnkills will be made by a demo on the way to somewhere else.
- Camp: Very viable as his specialty is setting up traps. Extremely hard to take out if he has support.
Heavy:
- Kill: Not easy without medic support, but very likely with an über.
- Camp: Easy if supplied with enough health, through either a sandwich or a medic. An über rush can often turn into a camp if both players are still alive, hard to counter.
Engineer:
- Kill: Nearly impossible, and rare to begin with.
- Camp: If an engi is actually able to get to the enemy spawn by himself and set up a sentry then I am more inclined to blame the enemy team for letting him get that far!
Medic:
- Kill: Very unlikely, and not terribly dangerous.
- Camp: Pretty much impossible. No threat except if he sneaks up on you with a saw.
Sniper:
- Kill: Hard unless the spawn is in plain sight like on granary. In that case, just use the other spawn door.
- Camp: Moderately easy, though not terribly dangerous. To counter, just use the other spawn door, or ask for help in taking him out.
Spy:
- Kill: Easy, though unlikely to be repeated easily if the enemy team is smart enough to check their backs in the future.
- Camp: Hard due to low health and the fact that a smart enemy team will spycheck everything near the spawn once you get a few spawnkills.
So the conclusion is that spawncamping is only really viable/effective for soldiers, demos, heavies and heavy/medic combos. Other classes don't really pose a serious threat near the spawn except initially. So if one of those other classes is near the spawn, it's not worth complaining about to begin with, and if the more dangerous ones are, then it depends on whether they're passing through/attacking/rushing or camping.
Edited by CodeCat, 07 February 2010 - 17:36.
Scout:
- Kill: Can easily spawnkill if it is to pick off a single person. Viable if to take down people by surprise or to take out teleporters.
- Camp: Can't spawncamp, not strong enough to survive because by camping he sacrifices his speed - his only main strong point.
Soldier:
- Kill: Has more trouble getting to the spawn due to his low speed, so if he gets there he has had to jump through quite a few hoops already. Not terribly viable.
- Camp: Unlikely, but if you make it to the spawn as a soldier, and then have enough health left or a medic, then it can be pretty destructive.
Pyro:
- Kill: Easy because of the pyro's speed and health, but most pyro attacks are suicide anyway unless übered. Viable as for the scout if to take people down by surprise or for tele killing, though less likely to succeed.
- Camp: Doesn't have enough health to stay around, and to kill people he has to be in their faces. A single heavy spells doom for any spawncamping pyro. Can be dangerous with medic support though.
Demoman:
- Kill: Not as likely, demomen are better used elsewhere, most spawnkills will be made by a demo on the way to somewhere else.
- Camp: Very viable as his specialty is setting up traps. Extremely hard to take out if he has support.
Heavy:
- Kill: Not easy without medic support, but very likely with an über.
- Camp: Easy if supplied with enough health, through either a sandwich or a medic. An über rush can often turn into a camp if both players are still alive, hard to counter.
Engineer:
- Kill: Nearly impossible, and rare to begin with.
- Camp: If an engi is actually able to get to the enemy spawn by himself and set up a sentry then I am more inclined to blame the enemy team for letting him get that far!
Medic:
- Kill: Very unlikely, and not terribly dangerous.
- Camp: Pretty much impossible. No threat except if he sneaks up on you with a saw.
Sniper:
- Kill: Hard unless the spawn is in plain sight like on granary. In that case, just use the other spawn door.
- Camp: Moderately easy, though not terribly dangerous. To counter, just use the other spawn door, or ask for help in taking him out.
Spy:
- Kill: Easy, though unlikely to be repeated easily if the enemy team is smart enough to check their backs in the future.
- Camp: Hard due to low health and the fact that a smart enemy team will spycheck everything near the spawn once you get a few spawnkills.
So the conclusion is that spawncamping is only really viable/effective for soldiers, demos, heavies and heavy/medic combos. Other classes don't really pose a serious threat near the spawn except initially. So if one of those other classes is near the spawn, it's not worth complaining about to begin with, and if the more dangerous ones are, then it depends on whether they're passing through/attacking/rushing or camping.
Edited by CodeCat, 07 February 2010 - 17:36.
Spooky
07 Feb 2010
I'm new here I know but I thought I'd add my thoughts on this matter.
I actually don't think that you need to go into a class by class viability study nor do you need to try and define the difference between spawn killing and spawn camping.
I totally understand getting kills outside/near the spawn happens. It's normal and happens all the time. The problem I think is that some people will try to use the distinction between s-killing and s-camping to continue to camp outside the spawn. I've only played on the server a few times and have seen obvious and blatent camping on several occasions.
Usually it is clear when a player has been running past the spawn and has shot me as i come out. It's hard to put down a quasi-legal definition to fit all cases but you can usually tell. Lots of times you're running away from someone and you end up near the enemy spawn, see a guy and take a shot at them. This is not the problem. I don't think you can really ban spawn-killing... its too much of a grey-area. However, you do need to deal on a case by case basis with those who are camping but pretending that it's just a coincidendce that they're right outside the spawn. Usually they stand out as they 'just happen to be passing by' the spawn over and over and over....
This is not really about what is a legitimate style of play or what is legal, etc it's about whether as a group of friends playing together you want to play this way. You could be playing football with your friends and decide to forget about the off-side rule. It's not about whats technically allowed, it's about how you want to play. You decide if the amount of spawn camping going on is a necessary evil or not. I think killing outside the spawn is legitimate sure but we all see the guy's who are camping. Being able to say 'it's not camping... i was just passing through... honest' means the campers get away with it. How you deal with it...
At best I think you could have a gentleman's agreement not to kill each other outside the spawn but this is tricky to define... how far outside,etc. It's messy and I think unnecessary.
Perhaps the solution is to leave the spawn killing alone but spectate the people who just happen to be passing by over and over so that you can see the camping for what it is...
Just my 2c.
Edited by Spooky, 07 February 2010 - 21:54.
I actually don't think that you need to go into a class by class viability study nor do you need to try and define the difference between spawn killing and spawn camping.
I totally understand getting kills outside/near the spawn happens. It's normal and happens all the time. The problem I think is that some people will try to use the distinction between s-killing and s-camping to continue to camp outside the spawn. I've only played on the server a few times and have seen obvious and blatent camping on several occasions.
Usually it is clear when a player has been running past the spawn and has shot me as i come out. It's hard to put down a quasi-legal definition to fit all cases but you can usually tell. Lots of times you're running away from someone and you end up near the enemy spawn, see a guy and take a shot at them. This is not the problem. I don't think you can really ban spawn-killing... its too much of a grey-area. However, you do need to deal on a case by case basis with those who are camping but pretending that it's just a coincidendce that they're right outside the spawn. Usually they stand out as they 'just happen to be passing by' the spawn over and over and over....
This is not really about what is a legitimate style of play or what is legal, etc it's about whether as a group of friends playing together you want to play this way. You could be playing football with your friends and decide to forget about the off-side rule. It's not about whats technically allowed, it's about how you want to play. You decide if the amount of spawn camping going on is a necessary evil or not. I think killing outside the spawn is legitimate sure but we all see the guy's who are camping. Being able to say 'it's not camping... i was just passing through... honest' means the campers get away with it. How you deal with it...
At best I think you could have a gentleman's agreement not to kill each other outside the spawn but this is tricky to define... how far outside,etc. It's messy and I think unnecessary.
Perhaps the solution is to leave the spawn killing alone but spectate the people who just happen to be passing by over and over so that you can see the camping for what it is...
Just my 2c.
Edited by Spooky, 07 February 2010 - 21:54.
Nid
07 Feb 2010
The reason I am against said ban is because, tbh, the person that is killing at the spawn should not have had an opportunity to get there in the first place.
Not only that, but on payload maps in particular, spawncamping is a viable tactic so as to stop an advance from the attacking team. If you call killing at the door "spawnkilling" then you are all guilty of it because you have all defended a payload map at least once, and have all killed someone as soon as they left the spawn at the start of a game.
If you brought this rule into effect, you are basically hindering a defending team's defence.
And as Code pointed out with the pyro situation, if I am raiding a defending team's base, I dont particularly want some guy screaming "OMJ SPAWNKILLER N00000B!!!!1111" because he was just leaving the room as I was passing it. It's just a case of bieng in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sorry you had to die my friend, but if I didn't kill you; you would just come back to haunt me later, or would kill me as I passed.
This is particuarly relevant when you are playing Nucleus and you circle the map looking for enemies to kill, you are bound to pass the enemy base several times during that game.
Edited by Nidmeister, 07 February 2010 - 21:35.
Not only that, but on payload maps in particular, spawncamping is a viable tactic so as to stop an advance from the attacking team. If you call killing at the door "spawnkilling" then you are all guilty of it because you have all defended a payload map at least once, and have all killed someone as soon as they left the spawn at the start of a game.
If you brought this rule into effect, you are basically hindering a defending team's defence.
And as Code pointed out with the pyro situation, if I am raiding a defending team's base, I dont particularly want some guy screaming "OMJ SPAWNKILLER N00000B!!!!1111" because he was just leaving the room as I was passing it. It's just a case of bieng in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sorry you had to die my friend, but if I didn't kill you; you would just come back to haunt me later, or would kill me as I passed.
This is particuarly relevant when you are playing Nucleus and you circle the map looking for enemies to kill, you are bound to pass the enemy base several times during that game.
Edited by Nidmeister, 07 February 2010 - 21:35.
Slye_Fox
07 Feb 2010
Add a 5 second spawn protection script.
This way people can get out still, and if they too slow, they can get killed.
This way people can get out still, and if they too slow, they can get killed.
CodeCat
08 Feb 2010
That sounds like a good idea that would probably make everyone happy. Now all we need is a link...
Wizard
08 Feb 2010
That could soooo be abused and what happens if someone with a quarter health has just finished off someone at the spawn point and then gets the drop on a respawner who just so happens to be 1.5 secs into his immunity, how is that fair?
You also have the issue of at what point can you be killed? Why is it ok to killed 5 seconds outside of the spawn room but not 2? You just move the spawn camper backwards. Spawn camping is a tactic, just like camping, just like laming, just like using bug exploits. It's part of the game, morally shitty as it is. If playing with friends is an issue and that spawn camper is there and won't listen, get rid of them.
Edited by Wizard, 08 February 2010 - 01:02.
You also have the issue of at what point can you be killed? Why is it ok to killed 5 seconds outside of the spawn room but not 2? You just move the spawn camper backwards. Spawn camping is a tactic, just like camping, just like laming, just like using bug exploits. It's part of the game, morally shitty as it is. If playing with friends is an issue and that spawn camper is there and won't listen, get rid of them.
Edited by Wizard, 08 February 2010 - 01:02.
deltaepsilon
08 Feb 2010
Wow, I wish I knew more girls who were as enthusiastic about TF2 as Emerald.
Sgt. Nuker
08 Feb 2010
Slye_Fox, on 7 Feb 2010, 18:42, said:
Add a 5 second spawn protection script.
This way people can get out still, and if they too slow, they can get killed.
This way people can get out still, and if they too slow, they can get killed.
If I remember correctly, while you're invulnerable for those 5 seconds, you can't kill anyone else either, so it can't be abused offensively. It's been a while since I've played on a server with this script (Google search for it
), but as I mentioned earlier, for the 5 seconds that no one can kill you, you can't kill anyone else.
CodeCat
08 Feb 2010
I had a look at some plugins but none really jumped out at me. Does anyone know a plugin that does what has been said? That is, provide temporary invulnerability which disappears when you fire a weapon?
Wizard
08 Feb 2010
Tbh I am struggling to work out why this is an issue. If someone is spawncamping on our server they don't stop if asked, then they are removed.
Libains
08 Feb 2010
And that, I believe, is probably that. It shouldn't happen, but if the matter is raised then it should be pretty easy to gain a consensus amongst the members who are playing, and to resolve the issue. I really don't think there is any point in yet another plugin, the raw gameplay of TF2 is for the most part supremely balanced and well worked and I hate modifying it any further.
