88 replies to this topic

[Golan]

With the improving capabilities of pre-natal diagnostics, abortion is today much more comprehensive issue then ever before. But even that left aside, abortion is also still debated with classical arguments. So, what´s your stance towards this topic?

[Prophet of the Pimps]

Pro Choice. No gonna go in the details because people cant handle the reality of it.

[Whitey]

Ever seen a partial-birth abortion? Tisk tisk... The baby is literally on the way out, and a drill is inserted into the head so the brain can be crushed so the baby's head can be collapsed to fit through... :'( And the baby feels this... literally flailing its arms and crying.

Don't dare say "Pro Choice". The baby has no choice in the matter now does it? Abortion is murder. The only exceptions I can see are babies conceived through rape.

Edited by Leatherneck, 26 April 2007 - 18:01.

[LCPL Carrow]

That it's murder and therefore wrong.

The only exception is in cases of rape, otherwise, it's your own stupid fault for getting pregnant if you didn't want to, so live with the consequences. If you can't support or don't want the baby, put it up for adoption, don't kill it.

[Athena]

Pro-choice definately.

In reply to LCPL Carrow:
Why should the woman go through a lot of pain when it was caused by two people? Why should she have to pay and he have the easy way? Definately pro-choice. People should have the option to do it in a case of emergency. It is the person's body and a government should not dictate what a person is able to do their body.

[Golan]

But shouldn´t the human life that gets erased for the convenience of another be protected aswell?

Edited by Golan, 26 April 2007 - 18:22.

[Athena]

Define "human life". A foetus of four weeks old isn't capable of many things yet, it completely depends upon the mother. It is the mother's choice if she wants it to be terminated. Also, how do you feel if the foetus had a genetic disease that would set its life chances to a low percentage including if it survives, a life chained in a chair or something? Do you feel you should let that live in order for it to suffer? And what then makes you say that in the case of rape it is not "human life" but between people who both did not mind the cause of the baby, it is?

I believe it is the parents' choice unless it is too old to put an abortion on, I believe that has been defined around 20-24 weeks here.

[Rayburn]

Pro abortion.
The potential mother should be the only one to decide what's to do since it directly concerns her body.
However, it shouldn't be made too easy to abort: There should be a better reason than "ZOMG I was sooo pissed that I slept with that guy I didn't even know before and I was too dumb to take care". In these cases, perhaps it could be more expensive since it happened out of carelessness/stupidity.
In cases of rape, it should be for free if an abortion is wanted.

Edited by MDW, 26 April 2007 - 18:28.

[G-sus]

pro choice
war is murder too.
and how cruel it sounds, but better end the life of one than ruin the life of two (therefor three).
but shame on everybody that has not a pretty damn good reason for doing it.
there are, but only few...

[CodeCat]

Pro choice. What someone does with their body is nobody else's business. And if I'm not even allowed to get rid of something inside me that I don't want, but is leeching off my bodily functions, then at least you should not allow medicine either. Because that's basically killing germs. Oh, and you should also give everyone aids, because the immune system kills germs too. Oh, and become a vegetarian while you're at it. Oh, and stop eating food altogether because plants are life too. Better yet, while you're at it, just kill yourself.

[LCPL Carrow]

@ Blaat: I didn't say that the guy should get off easy. In fact, I agree with you that he shouldn't. He was just as dumb for accepting a risk that he wasn't willing to face the consequences of. I also agree with you that the government cannot tell someone what to do with their body, but the baby (and yes, that includes the fetus) is a body, and it has a life. So, can the government not make laws preventing people from harming one another? IIRC, homicide is illegal.

And yes, the fetus is dependent on its mother for many things, but so is a 10-year-old. What if you decide that you don't want your 10-year-old anymore? Should you be able to abort it, too? Of course not, you would say. Because it's no longer in the mother's body, right? But still, in the mother's body or not, the baby has just as much life as the mother, the father, or anyone else has. Just because it can't survive on its own doesn't mean that it isn't alive.

As for the difference between rape cases and other cases, well, you have to draw a line somewhere, or else you get branded as a sexist asshole who has no regard for women. Besides that, having a baby through rape is just...wrong. I really don't think that the mother should have to go through the whole pregnancy ordeal if she was raped, for chrissakes. But if she was just stupid, well then, if you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough. Yeah it's a difficult distinction, but that's why it's up for debate.

As to birth defects, I have no argument that the non-religious folk will accept.

[Golan]

 Blaat85, on 26 Apr 2007, 18:26, said:

Define "human life".

Every beeing having a complete set of what is seen as human DNA.

 Blaat85, on 26 Apr 2007, 18:26, said:

A foetus of four weeks old isn't capable of many things yet, it completely depends upon the mother. It is the mother's choice if she wants it to be terminated. Also, how do you feel if the foetus had a genetic disease that would set its life chances to a low percentage including if it survives, a life chained in a chair or something? Do you feel you should let that live in order for it to suffer? And what then makes you say that in the case of rape it is not "human life" but between people who both did not mind the cause of the baby, it is?

A four week old foetus will be fully developed soon though. Heck, even a baby isn´t capable of a shitload of things an adult can do. So depose them when they are a nuisance? And how do you want to set the deadline? A 168 days old featus may be killed but a 169 days old one may not?
As a genetic disease (like trisomy) is a clearly definable defect to human DNA, I don´t mind abortion in this case. However, it´s still a choice of importance. Even a highly limited life may be better then none at all.
And I´m never ever gonna say that in case of rape it wouldn´t be human.

 CodeCat, on 26 Apr 2007, 18:45, said:

Pro choice. What someone does with their body is nobody else's business. And if I'm not even allowed to get rid of something inside me that I don't want, but is leeching off my bodily functions, then at least you should not allow medicine either. Because that's basically killing germs. Oh, and you should also give everyone aids, because the immune system kills germs too. Oh, and become a vegetarian while you're at it. Oh, and stop eating food altogether because plants are life too. Better yet, while you're at it, just kill yourself.

Klick me!

[Athena]

 LCPL Carrow, on 26 Apr 2007, 20:45, said:

@ Blaat: I didn't say that the guy should get off easy. In fact, I agree with you that he shouldn't. He was just as dumb for accepting a risk that he wasn't willing to face the consequences of. I also agree with you that the government cannot tell someone what to do with their body, but the baby (and yes, that includes the fetus) is a body, and it has a life.

CodeCat said pretty much what I think of that argument.

[CodeCat]

 Golan, on 26 Apr 2007, 20:49, said:

Klick me!

?

[LCPL Carrow]

 Blaat85, on 26 Apr 2007, 14:51, said:

 LCPL Carrow, on 26 Apr 2007, 20:45, said:

@ Blaat: I didn't say that the guy should get off easy. In fact, I agree with you that he shouldn't. He was just as dumb for accepting a risk that he wasn't willing to face the consequences of. I also agree with you that the government cannot tell someone what to do with their body, but the baby (and yes, that includes the fetus) is a body, and it has a life.

CodeCat said pretty much what I think of that argument.

O RLy? AFAIK, he didn't actually manage to say much at all.

[Golan]

@Codecat
You´re argumentation is void against someone trying to protect human life, not life overall. Neither germs nor my lunch nor plants will ever be human or semi-human.

Edited by Golan, 26 April 2007 - 18:59.

[Athena]

What makes you think humans are so much more important than other life? We are animals too you know. In fact, our DNA is over 90% similar to monkey DNA.

[Golan]

Wasn´t it something around 95% to 97%? Hm, never can memorize that for long...

I don´t think humans are more "important". Just by far more aware and carrying a potential that needs to be protected.

[Athena]

Yeah, it is. I just said above 90% because I wasn't sure of the exact number.

A potential? I'm not sure what you mean there.

[Whitey]

I don't know about over across the pond, but here, we have facilities where you can simply leave a new-born, no questions asked. That's it, just leave it.

I've used this before: Every rose has its thorns. Sex has the potential of bearing a child, it is a risk that both parents are aware of. (Of course, rape is excempt from this argument). Might as well adopt a child and kill it a year down the line for being a brat.

We need to be teaching society to accept consequences, not put them over onto somebody else (ESPECIALLY the victim!)

I was almost aborted as a child because the doctors didn't get much of a heartbeat going and suspected I had died. And yet, my mom said "I'll come in next week" and plop, there I was, heartbeat and all. Different circumstances, sure, but I was most definitely alive and it would have been quite painful to have my body crushed, even in the womb.

A fetus is a living organism. Though dependent upon the mother, the fetus can move with (very slightly) free will. And yet thousands of these lives are ended and uncared for. Tossed to the fucking garbage, a human life for fuck's sake. Functioning organs, developed nervous system, etc. And yet the fetus has no choice. You are not pro choice, I am pro choice. You are pro murder.

[Athena]

A lot of animals are also killed so you can eat, having had a life that wasn't very enjoyable. What makes you say humans are so much more important?

What makes the government allowed to force a woman to go through a lot of pain and even putting a child upon her that she may not even be able to afford or want to take care of. Adoption isn't something you do easily either, there is always an emotional scar. Giving up a baby after it's born can be very hard, however if you keep it then it changes your life forever.

[Whitey]

The thing is, we don't eat babies for our survival. That argument is irrevelant, since the slaughtered animals go to use whereas slaughter babies do not.

And the government shouldn't have to tell the woman what do do with her child's body. Not her body, her child's. But that is not the case. Because two people are stupid enough to not use protection in having sex, you think the government should kill the victim? (the child). Sure, save the woman some short time of pain, but make the majority of the child's life a living hell. That is humanitarian.

[Athena]

The child does not feel a lot of pain. I don't know how it's done in the US though, but here..

Also, short is relative. The woman is in pain longer than the child for a second. Births can take several hours upto a day even.

What happens when people have used protection but it fails, as it does in some small percentage of all cases?

Edited by Blaat85, 26 April 2007 - 19:38.

[Whitey]

1: More pain than the woman at least. It's the one being killed.
2: The baby is in pain more than a second (especially during partial birth abortions). And that time in comparison to its whole lifespan versus the 1 day of a woman in her whole lifespan puts, I believe, the baby at the disadvantage.

Go through the one day of suffering and allow the child to live, grow, and die by its own accords. It's one day to save a life...

[Athena]

Then I think abortions are being done quite differently in your country o_O.

Also, it changes the woman's life forever as she'll have to take care of it. The child will need someone around 24/7, as well as it costs a lot of money. People may not be able to afford to stop working and buy all kinds of stuff the baby needs.