80 replies to this topic

[DreadNot]

 narboza22, on 19 Jul 2007, 18:49, said:

Maybe instead of complaining about youtube atheists, you should go complain about the Catholic Church, Judaism, and Islam that have been forcing beliefs on people for the past 2000 years.

No one if forcing people to go to youtube, much less make a video.

Exactly. Back in 1000 (and earlier) A.D. inquisitors would burn people at the cross just for thinking the victims didn't believe strongly enough in God.

Being an atheist, I don't mind people making that video.

Telling an atheist that he/she is going to hell won't affect them in any way. Trust me, I've been told on several occasions

You can be moral without having to believe in a higher being. I mean, I may be an atheist but I've taken homeless people out to eat just because they asked. Same with giving them money, if they ask, I'll just give them a few dollars to help them out. Homeless are human being too, so they should at least be treated as one and given something to live a few more years.

[Golan]

 People's Liberation Army, on 23 Jul 2007, 23:00, said:

A invitation to attend a church meeting or a Jesus Saves flyer is okay, it's not offensive in anyway, even it if is, it's about the same as the phrase "In god we trust" on your USD notes.

So why is a "Jesus Saves" flyer with the notion of experiencing endless pain in God´s own torture department when having one single heretic thought "okay" while the message that you can calmly be as heretic as you want because nothing will happen to you is not?

 People's Liberation Army, on 23 Jul 2007, 23:00, said:

This youtube video is basically urging for the knee-jerk reaction from many teenagers that want to look cool by committing a sin. It also ties in the "Free stuff if you do this" routine. This is no better than handing out money to people to attend a Church. It is impractical, immoral and offensive to anyone who believes that there is a higher being, be it Allah, God, The Buddah, Luke Skywalker or The_Hunter. One does not "take the higher ground" and think whoever who doesn't or is affected by it immature. Those who take the moral high ground should be the ones to think "hey, this might offend people as it is neither humours or informative, maybe we shouldn't be doing this or this should be stopped."

So it´s okay to ram religion down society’s throat but as soon as atheist propagate their believe as well by publicly showing it they are arrogant and egocentric for thinking they´d be superior to others?
If some people think their cool by posting such a stupid video (got a new favorite one ) then it´s their fault. There´s noone storming churches, kidnapping young, susceptible souls to force them to deny their god. If people prefer to sell their soul for some crappy soft-cover and the certitude of not rotting in hell instead of for being part of a feel-good community and the unfunded claim that their soul won´t rot in hell because they adhere to God´s word then so be it. It´s not like the church/ a religion wouldn´t be offering anything to their followers.
Also, the BC-video is directed against a certain Christian believe. I doubt that Buddhists can take much offense in this...

 Grim Reaper, on 24 Jul 2007, 6:24, said:

Exactly. Back in 1000 (and earlier) A.D. inquisitors would burn people at the cross just for thinking the victims didn't believe strongly enough in God.

Don´t you think it´s a bit unfair to brand today´s believers for what was done by some nutcracks some hundred years ago?

Edited by Golan, 24 July 2007 - 08:13.

[Dauth]

Speaking of hell, if you ever manage to find moderate chrisitans i do find it amusing to watch the expression on their face as i prove to them i am evil just after proving to them i am one of the more moral people i have met. most fun.

Religion worries me, just looking at his thread.

A group of people have made a video showing thier beliefs, and they are in no way as extreme as the chants of fundamentalist Christians or Muslims, but this video has got an intelligent and generally co-operative gaming community on the border of a flame war.

Does anyone expect to change anything in this small corner of the internet? Or do they actually burn with desire to join or destroy the makers of this video?

[Commander Abs]

I haven't watched the video, and personally I don't want to because it'll be a lot of non-sensical rubbish from what people have been saying about it.

Is this video going to change the world and the culture of religion? No

Is this video really worth anything? No

All this video is is an attempt by someone, atheist or not, to shit-stir. How about I make a video claiming to be a member of the KKK telling people to announce their hatred for blacks? How about I make a video as a member of my local footy club announcing how pathetic an opposing team is?

I wasn't going to post in here, but it's become a pretty popular one it seems.

Missing something by not watching the video? I'd just as likely not watch something similar saying to announce your love of Jesus, Allah or whoever. It's like the old war propaganda which used to go round, and you're pretty brainless to follow any of it. Sure follow faith, just dont follow stupid people.

EDIT: As for my comment about shit-stirring, I actually just reread the topic. Take a good look at yourselves,,,

Edited by Commander Abs, 24 July 2007 - 14:03.

[Overdose]

Why are you people making a fuss about some community video blog? Their choice doesn't concern you or threatens you. Note that this isn't any less annoying that those online evangelist dudes and spam mail from dozens of christian churches. At least the atheists won't be bothering people for money.

[DreadNot]

 Golan, on 24 Jul 2007, 3:10, said:

 Grim Reaper, on 24 Jul 2007, 6:24, said:

Exactly. Back in 1000 (and earlier) A.D. inquisitors would burn people at the cross just for thinking the victims didn't believe strongly enough in God.

Don´t you think it´s a bit unfair to brand today´s believers for what was done by some nutcracks some hundred years ago?

I wasn't branding anyone, I was stating a fact.

[Whitey]

That doesn't apply to today.

[nip]

So, what does apply to today? How about daily and religious motivated hate, rape, slaughter, murder around the globe? This is about why disbelievers have the f***ing right to openly denounce your gods. But, my dear believers, don't worry because

Matthew 5 said:

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." 12"Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Amen.

Seriously, I've fundamental issues with the Abrahamic religions in general. All the Abrahamic religions are tolerant when they have to be and they are agressive when they're able to. That means firstly, the religious people are tolerant when they have to be and agressive when they are able to. Because religion itself is unable to act, it's the believer who is blamable for religion's image. And secondly, regarding tolerance and agressiveness it doesn't matter which religion someone belong to - problem is Abrahamic religions' mere existence.

I wouldn't wonder about if all these religions wouldn't be souled by the spirit of charity. Christianity even praise enemies love (Matthew, 5.44). Seeing this opens a huge conflict between their official manifesto and their common practice. The crusades and colonialism weren't models of christian indulgence. The jewish nation fought several glory wars and gave a damn shit on the conquered arabs. Islam kingdoms and monarchs have been generally tolerant against Jews, Christians or Hindus - once there was a notable differential established (if necessary by fire and sword) between them and their ward, the dhimmi. Islam rules, it isn't to be ruled, said prophet Mohammed - so much about Islam's understanding of charity. Down to the present day all these religions carry on violent.

Let us atheists deny and denounce your gods. By denying all your gods I just add some names to my long list of has-been gods as there were Apollo, Carmenta, Maja, Amun, Alwis, Neptune, Wotan to name just a few. Remember them? Hopefully not so many centuries ahead and nobody will remember your present gods.

And yes, we'd be better off without religion. I have no sympathy for some lame whining about a retarded video. Those videos may be offensive to you, your religions you praise are dangerous to us. Do not tell me extremists are abusing religion. They just take religion literally. Religion itself is the problem. Let loose religion and you'll let loose hell. All this makes me hostile to religion, makes me denounce your gods.

Better teen atheist than kid shaheed. Soon I expect religious motivated Hindu riots for admitting "I love my beef steak bloody!".

[Dauth]

*Bows to Nip* you sir said what i was afraid of saying.

What i find worse than the though of religious people is the way they perputate their numbers. anyone hear of the jesuit claim. "Give me a boy at the age of 7 and i will give you a man". Since it's a religious quote it means a religious man.

At the fucking age of 7 children should be forced to believe in religion? who can honestly claim this is right? In the western world we fought 2 world wars for freedom, only to have it denied by the church!!!!

[Razven]

It probably means that give your children a chance to face religion so that he grows up with the right morals and conduct. Kind of like saying "All Children should go to school by 7", since there were no public schools back in the days they wrote this.

The problem with religion is that you can see it meaning so many different things, some probably not very suitable today and some might sound strange if you don't know the history at that time. But ultimately, all religions should theoretically want steer you towards being a good person and build a peaceful society, even if you don't believe all that God part of the book. It's just how people tend to twist and interpret it to their own means that gives religion a bad name.

[CodeCat]

There's no need for religion to instill values and morals. What if the morals are 'those who don't believe what you do should be dead'? What if 'unbelievers are less than you are' is what morals are taught to you? I've yet to see anyone being raised with the idea that religious people are stupid and inferior. I arrived at the conclusion that religions are bad news quite on my own, my parents didn't have any hand in it. But at least I'm sane enough not to go around spreading hate and intolerance. For me there's one golden rule that applies:

Anyone can believe what they like, as long as they don't bother others with that.

That applies to government-sanctioned religious discrimination, that applies to trying to brainwash and indoctrinate people, that applies to killing for not seeing things the same way. Live and let live, and don't be bothering others with what you believe. And if you do, well then it's no surprise that some reaction occurs. This video is that.

[Razven]

I dunno, I thought "Thou shall not kill" was actually pretty good, then there's the one about respecting your parents. The whole take on religion shouldn't be about "YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ME YOU GO TO HELL!! LOL!" The modern law actually has itself based from religions rules, like don't kill, don't harm others and don't steal. The Bible tells us to spread the religion, not oppress those who don't.

[Whitey]

And while the Bible says that, this Atheism video says that religion is dead of old age and so you should move on. It's not forceful, but it does put pressure on the viewer. It's like me walking up to Codecat and saying "Atheism is old crap, get with the new wave, of scientology!" versus "Get with scientology [insert legitimate reason]"

[DreadNot]

 δαίμο&#, on 24 Jul 2007, 14:25, said:

That doesn't apply to today.

No shit. I was making a statement that was supposed to be about the past. Now that I've made it as clear as I possibly can, would you mind not repeating yourself?

[nip]

It's right when saying that religious schools often been the only chance to gain a little bit of education and knowledge. But for the masses it wasn't enough to make up one's mind, just enough to follow the herd. On a side note - by tradition the church did not only ban research, but the reading of the bible by lay people, too. In the european dark age the possession of a bible in local language was a capital crime. The owner was sentenced to the stake. By religious authorities.

And today? Honestly nobody needs to face religion to grow up with the right moral. "You shall not kill" is written in the bible. So what? It's not something exclusive to them. I do live by an identical moral and I wasn't even christened - some believers call me a barbarian, others wanna burn me at the stake. Their progress of civilization is remarkable. Try to figure out how many times, not clear text but hedged "You shall kill" can be found in the bible. Maybe you start mistrust christian values and moral then.

[Golan]

There are just aswell many if not more christians/muslims/whatever believers that do not take the "violent orders" in their holy books literal and thus don´t adhere to them. Also, atheism on the other side isn´t necessarily peaceful as well.

 CodeCat, on 26 Jul 2007, 11:09, said:

Anyone can believe what they like, as long as they don't bother others with that.

So you prefer anyone to just hush up their believes as soon as someone else is around? Bury one’s head in the sand instead of learning about each other´s believe? Pretending the world to be a happy feel-good place instead of facing each others differences and perhaps reaching a consensus for life?
(Yes, these are question, not intended to be some rhetorical bullshit. It doesn´t seem to fit to you...)

[Whitey]

Atheism, like all beliefs, is going to cause tensions, there's no escaping that. And so there's really no point in all this BS talk.

What I do have against the video are two things: What good is converting gonna have, what use is it? And of course, the stoneage comment. Other than that I don't really see any discussion points anymore...

[Crush3r]

Well, that that video was kinda stupid and not serious. If you wanna convince people to become atheist, just demonstrate the impossibility of the existence of divinity, the causes for the apparition of religion and the absurdity of it surviving in such large numbers to this day a.k.a. prove your point.

[Aethercell]

there's not a whole lot more to be added here people, it's getting repetetive.

Review:

Religion comes around, corrupt folks and crazy folks make awful doctrines, making a bad name for religions among each other. With modern science religion becomes illogical but many people cling to traditions, a.k.a. believing. Certain people still use religion as an excuse for their own violence. Atheism, though simple and for many very acceptable, tends to make some people ANTI-religion, which is different. You can not believe without dragging other people down. This video is unnecessarily offensive, and morally unsatisfactory. You can't justify the provocative nature of this video by saying that christians had the inquisition or jews drove out the palestinians. that's like saying that every muslim child on earth was involved in the attacks on september eleventh 2001. it's just WRONG. :chainer:

[Golan]

That video could easily be justified with every broadcasted church service today. The reference to past misdoings of the Christian church wasn´t really an argument here.

 Crush3r, on 28 Aug 2007, 0:39, said:

[...]just demonstrate the impossibility of the existence of divinity[...]

I´d really like to know how you´d be doing this.

Edited by Golan, 28 August 2007 - 09:07.

[Dr. Strangelove]

You don't need to show it's impossible, hell that isn't even logically possible, you just need to show it's improbable.

[Golan]

That won´t convince many people. After all, trusting in mere improbability is believe as well. It also doesn´t get rid of one of the main reasons for believe - answers, as vague and far-fetched as some of them may be.

"Hey, your god does probably not exist! Renounce him!" Yeah, I can see many people falling for that trick...

[Crush3r]

 Golan, on 28 Aug 2007, 12:03, said:

That video could easily be justified with every broadcasted church service today. The reference to past misdoings of the Christian church wasn´t really an argument here.

 Crush3r, on 28 Aug 2007, 0:39, said:

[...]just demonstrate the impossibility of the existence of divinity[...]

I´d really like to know how you´d be doing this.

Practically, by definition, if something exists, it's existence is logical, as nothing can be illogical. If something exists and appears illogical, then our theories have to be revised a little. But it is only logical that anything that exists obeys the laws of Physics, that mold in such a way that everything that exists is logical. However, divinity is supposed to be superior to the laws of Physics and that would mean it didn't exist. And if it does exist, it obeys the laws of Physics, and looses it's divine status. So it either doesn't exist, or it isn't divine, it's just a normal being.

You can agree with me or not, but I think the arguments are pretty sound.

[General Kirkov]

I am a practicing Catholic and I am not ashamed to say so. I have Muslim friends, Jewish friends, a few athiets I have a sikh friend as well. The one thing I despise is the grouping of "Christians" there are several sects of Christianity and even a few withing Catholism itself. There are sects in Judaism, Islam. And probaly others in most other "major" religions. I'm also man enough to say I don't give a damn either way. Any person who is either religious or not who is a decent person is ok by me. What I don't like is people manipulating words to make their cause more just.

Yes the bible is a tad out dated (it's the only religious book I've read so be patient with me). The church and by that I mean the vatican has changed to acommodate modern times. But the core message has not changed. From what I understand is the primary christian sect in the US is not Catholic and the far right groups may be considered extreemists.

The events depicted in the bible are meant not to be taken as actual events (for the most part) but as moral lessons.

From what I saw in that video is that everyone goes to hell if they don't do what whatever relion they belong to. I'd like to point out that certain religious don't believe in hell. Also that as long as you don't break the 4 biggies and the 6 others without confessing (for catholics) you get purgatory for a little while.

[Dr. Strangelove]

 Golan, on 28 Aug 2007, 9:49, said:

That won´t convince many people. After all, trusting in mere improbability is believe as well. It also doesn´t get rid of one of the main reasons for believe - answers, as vague and far-fetched as some of them may be.

"Hey, your god does probably not exist! Renounce him!" Yeah, I can see many people falling for that trick...

MERE IMPROBABILITY?

It's so improbable that just about any other explanation is more likely, by His very definition, He would be the most improbable thing possible. I'd sooner beleive that the Soviet Union was not communist, that we live on the sun, that there really were aleins at Roswell, and that anime cartoons were real.

And a better source of answers would be GUT.

Quote

Practically, by definition, if something exists, it's existence is logical, as nothing can be illogical.

Huh? Explain, but it doesn't sound right to me.

EDIT: Typos and emphasis

Edited by The Outsider, 28 August 2007 - 14:35.