257 replies to this topic

[Reaper94]

PrexicKehdaki, on 9 Dec 2007, 21:07, said:

Here you go Codecat.. the list is even longer and can be found at http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html


“A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism”

how does that work out cos the bible is the holy book of a religion so reading of it isnt a sign of atheism its a sign of beleif in christiannity

[Dr. Strangelove]

No god eh?

We'll see what JHVH-1 says about that when he changes the SKORE!

The X-ists must unite to overthrow him!

The Curch of SubGenius

SubGenius Information Pamphlet

*obviously still a hard-line Atheist/Objectivist*

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 13 December 2007 - 10:05.

[CodeCat]

Rabid Dawg, on 13 Dec 2007, 8:52, said:

how does that work out cos the bible is the holy book of a religion so reading of it isnt a sign of atheism its a sign of beleif in christiannity

So when I read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I must somehow believe that the Vogons are about to destroy this planet? What about reading something because of interest in history and trying to understand religion better, rather than a belief?

[Crush3r]

Rabid Dawg, on 13 Dec 2007, 9:52, said:

PrexicKehdaki, on 9 Dec 2007, 21:07, said:

Here you go Codecat.. the list is even longer and can be found at http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html


“A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism”

how does that work out cos the bible is the holy book of a religion so reading of it isnt a sign of atheism its a sign of beleif in christiannity

Well, you see the mentality and allegories that created the book, thus disproving it's literal (proper) meaning.

[Shirou]

The bible, book of the greatest delusion in the history of mankind, is something I quite don't like. Compared to the reprehensible Koran however it isn't that bad. Christians, whatever, I leave you believe what you want to believe. In my opinion they are not hurting many people with their belief, as long as I don't have to comply with rules that are only to be backed up with solely religious statements. Luckily most of these societal matters christians have a big say in, in my society, also have more rational arguments that can be used towards gaining my acceptance.

Every friday, though, in the evening I observe my parents' will and reluctantly go to this Alpha Course, the extended form of Catechism here. I am to sit there for 2,5 hours, where I will have dinner (quite nice and cosy) and subsequently am imposed the need to talk about the christian belief among a number of other teenagers, with whom the preachers and other supervisers have the goal to educate in the christian beliefs and ultimately to have them surrender to the church. My parents' though, don't send me to the church anymore on sundays. The reasoning behind this is, well, because my parents don't always go to the church as well I managed to use that argument and talk myself out of the most boring place in the world forever.

Catechism, though, is something I will probably have to attend to until some antediluvian preacher either comes to enlightenment and sees that I totally revolt against his delusions of divinity and notifies my parents, or somehow seeks to find a mirage in the rainy dutch sundays telling him I could actually be saved by his god, and asks me to do a profession of faith. I am not an impolite person but if that moment once comes I am looking forward to bursting out in laughter and impolitely leave the poor preacher in confusion...

That moment however will never come if I continue taking his attention during the catechism, by questioning every asset of his stories, and endlessly discussing with him. I like discussions about belief, as it is something untouchable that can be argumented on so many different ways from both the religious and the atheistic party. I kind of like it and the oppurtunity to discuss with these believers is the only reason for me to still bear the supposed waste of my time which I could be spending behind my PC performing nothing...

Christianity, no thank you.

[smooder]

Shirou, on 13 Dec 2007, 20:18, said:

Compared to the reprehensible Koran

What makes The Koran so much worse than the Bible?

In terms of Equality between men and women it FIRMLY STATES that men and women are equals, which i believe the bible doesnt.

If it is the concept of Hijab or multiple marriages you are talking about I can explain it to you, I used to have an issue with it too and confused to for opression but it really isnt. Its about culture more than religion that you are talking about. Most of the stupid stuff that goes on in the Muslim world is either NOTHING to do with Islam, or wrongly asociated with Islam. The latter itself is minor worship shirk and is strongly punnished by the Sharia law that people also hate.

After learing about the Koran and Islam I know it isnt Islam I have an issue with. Its the brainwashed muslim versions of chavs.

[PrexicKehdaki]

LDM125, on 13 Dec 2007, 1:57, said:

Ok, so even assuming there weren't a God, wouldn't it royally suck to be wrong? I mean, you would find out that you're going to burn in hell forever. On the contrary, what do you actually lose by believing in what the Bible says? Some 'fun' here and there? I personally wouldn't take the chance of eternal punishment over missing out on some stuff.

P.S.: I would say a lot more on this, but I am very tired...
-LDM

That's called Pascal's Wager.

It's not convincing to atheists because it assumes the two possibilities are 50/50.. which to atheists it's more like 1/1000. It also ignores the fact that atheists can't simply CHOOSE to believe in God just because a certain someone presents a logical hell threat. This argument, even if I were to accept it as true, would not enable me to believe in God. That's a whole 'nuther concept. Lastly, it assumes that a god of this nature is even worthy of worship.. many atheists can't worship a god that behaves this way.

[PrexicKehdaki]

Rabid Dawg, on 13 Dec 2007, 7:52, said:

PrexicKehdaki, on 9 Dec 2007, 21:07, said:

Here you go Codecat.. the list is even longer and can be found at http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html


“A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism”

how does that work out cos the bible is the holy book of a religion so reading of it isnt a sign of atheism its a sign of beleif in christiannity

The quotation says it's the surest path to atheism, not sign. It's a path because many people, when they really look at the contents of the book, realize it's BS.

[Short Stuff]

Meh, edit your post next time, dont double


But, Again everyone has their own opinions, I dont want this to turn into an extreme arguement like our old Politics forum (Religion and politics are both EXTREMELY sensitive topics)

So from now on, im staying out of this

[Chyros]

@ previous posters: I think it's mostly how people act on their beliefs that lets me judge it "right" or "wrong". But none of this adresses whether God exists or not.

Personally, I think God does not exist as anything but an idea, an ideology for those who believe in it. IMO, God is not a physical, mental or paranormal entity and only a set of interpretations of other people. And thus, God is arbitrary, not a "being", incapable of any action or thought and only of any influence on people who act on their beliefs in Him. To those who turn to God for confort, inspiration and/or guidance, I wish all the best. To those that use Him to justify otherwise unjustifyable acts, I can only convey disgust.

Adn for me personally He doesn't exist at all.

[Shirou]

smooder, on 14 Dec 2007, 0:29, said:

Shirou, on 13 Dec 2007, 20:18, said:

Compared to the reprehensible Koran

What makes The Koran so much worse than the Bible?

In terms of Equality between men and women it FIRMLY STATES that men and women are equals, which i believe the bible doesnt.

Then I don't really understand why muslims out there tend to terribly mistreat women, degrade them to mere housepuppets, etcetera. Oh ofcourse, it is stated in the Koran, but all those millions and millions of muslims tend to believe otherwise and see women as lower creatures. Are they even reading the same Koran?

I, well, detest this apparently wrong interpretation, but because muslims so massly tend to follow this interpretation, I have not grown too fond of the islam as a whole.

That has to do with the way I see religions. I see the premonitions and beliefs in divinity as something that sprouted from the minds of the people in harsh times when they really had nobody else to turn with except for their made up god. Making this god an omnipotent super being gave hope that he would one time descend to the world or do whatever to save the people from their dictators, famines, diseases etcetera. To me, religion is made by the people. And if muslims tend to be violent and discriminating to their own kind but also any infidel who even dares to question their judgement en masse. I think to me I have a viable reason to really dislike current Islam.

Take this example.

Yea sure, you feel hurt because the templars would have not been all too nice to muslims. At first those assumptions are plain wrong, and it is just said because the Templars were a very powerful christian might and therefore muslims seek out the bad things first. Second, why doesn't lord Kraska consider what his religion is doing to people in the current world...

[Waris]

Shirou, on 14 Dec 2007, 16:06, said:

Then I don't really understand why muslims out there tend to terribly mistreat women, degrade them to mere housepuppets, etcetera. Oh ofcourse, it is stated in the Koran, but all those millions and millions of muslims tend to believe otherwise and see women as lower creatures. Are they even reading the same Koran?

I, well, detest this apparently wrong interpretation, but because muslims so massly tend to follow this interpretation, I have not grown too fond of the islam as a whole.

That has to do with the way I see religions. I see the premonitions and beliefs in divinity as something that sprouted from the minds of the people in harsh times when they really had nobody else to turn with except for their made up god. Making this god an omnipotent super being gave hope that he would one time descend to the world or do whatever to save the people from their dictators, famines, diseases etcetera. To me, religion is made by the people. And if muslims tend to be violent and discriminating to their own kind but also any infidel who even dares to question their judgement en masse. I think to me I have a viable reason to really dislike current Islam.

Take this example.

Yea sure, you feel hurt because the templars would have not been all too nice to muslims. At first those assumptions are plain wrong, and it is just said because the Templars were a very powerful christian might and therefore muslims seek out the bad things first. Second, why doesn't lord Kraska consider what his religion is doing to people in the current world...

smooder, on 14 Dec 2007, 7:29, said:

If it is the concept of Hijab or multiple marriages you are talking about I can explain it to you, I used to have an issue with it too and confused to for opression but it really isnt. Its about culture more than religion that you are talking about. Most of the stupid stuff that goes on in the Muslim world is either NOTHING to do with Islam, or wrongly asociated with Islam. The latter itself is minor worship shirk and is strongly punnished by the Sharia law that people also hate.

After learing about the Koran and Islam I know it isnt Islam I have an issue with. Its the brainwashed muslim versions of chavs.

Eh, you can do better than this.

[smooder]

Waris, on 14 Dec 2007, 8:46, said:

Shirou, on 14 Dec 2007, 16:06, said:

Then I don't really understand why muslims out there tend to terribly mistreat women, degrade them to mere housepuppets, etcetera. Oh ofcourse, it is stated in the Koran, but all those millions and millions of muslims tend to believe otherwise and see women as lower creatures. Are they even reading the same Koran?

I, well, detest this apparently wrong interpretation, but because muslims so massly tend to follow this interpretation, I have not grown too fond of the islam as a whole.

That has to do with the way I see religions. I see the premonitions and beliefs in divinity as something that sprouted from the minds of the people in harsh times when they really had nobody else to turn with except for their made up god. Making this god an omnipotent super being gave hope that he would one time descend to the world or do whatever to save the people from their dictators, famines, diseases etcetera. To me, religion is made by the people. And if muslims tend to be violent and discriminating to their own kind but also any infidel who even dares to question their judgement en masse. I think to me I have a viable reason to really dislike current Islam.

Take this example.

Yea sure, you feel hurt because the templars would have not been all too nice to muslims. At first those assumptions are plain wrong, and it is just said because the Templars were a very powerful christian might and therefore muslims seek out the bad things first. Second, why doesn't lord Kraska consider what his religion is doing to people in the current world...

smooder, on 14 Dec 2007, 7:29, said:

If it is the concept of Hijab or multiple marriages you are talking about I can explain it to you, I used to have an issue with it too and confused to for opression but it really isnt. Its about culture more than religion that you are talking about. Most of the stupid stuff that goes on in the Muslim world is either NOTHING to do with Islam, or wrongly asociated with Islam. The latter itself is minor worship shirk and is strongly punnished by the Sharia law that people also hate.

After learing about the Koran and Islam I know it isnt Islam I have an issue with. Its the brainwashed muslim versions of chavs.

Eh, you can do better than this.

What you mean who can do better than what?


I saudi Arabiawomen are treated badly but that is nothing to do with Islam. Its to do with beiodin culture where women are objects and possesions.
In 70% of muslim countries women are equals to men. Its just the media that gets your attention about the places where that isnt the case.

[Waris]

I was in response to Shirou's post. What he is looking for is actually found inside your previous post.

[Shirou]

So all the controversy about the Burka in my country does not originate from the Islam but from their ancient culture?

Allright, I should have read the above posts better. But well then that post 'd be the only thing telling me. Because in the current media of my country burka + islam are constantly connected with eachother. (probably because the traditions and the religion originate from the same regions mainly).

Anyway, my apology for my mistake. It was my inadvertence over your post that now kicks back on me

[Waris]

More or less so. If you look at Malaysia, fr example, where a good 51% of the population is Muslim, you will notice that the burqa 'law' is far less oppressive than an Islamic Middle East country. Not just that, but also the view towards woman in general.

Maybe it is caused by the general awareness induced by the 49% of the population (non-Muslim), so another place to look at is Indonesia, where Islam hods for 84% and still holds a general view towards woman similar to that in Malaysia.

[smooder]

The concept of Hijab doesnt mean a woman must wear a veil. It means that men must respect womens privacy and vice versa.
In islam if you see a hot girl walking by if you look at her once you are forgivven, As it is man's nature to look at females and they cannot stop it. However if you turn around then decide to look again you are not forgivven. Some muslim women decide to wear the hijab or burqa to help men not commit sin, because they feel sorry for them.

About the culture thing. In Arabia stretching to pakistan and Arabia the hair is considered a sexy part of the body. Much like the breasts and arse are in the western world. So in much the same way as if a woman walked around showing these parts in the west in Arabia people will not like it.

It is for a combination of these reasons a woman in the west might choose to wear a hijab. In islam it is a sin to force a woman to wear it. Much like contrary to popular belief it is a sin to force someone to accept Islam.

However this does not stop certain idiots exploiting religion.

For example the barbary pirates of old Morocco went around their buisiness terrorising coastal europe from Greece to spain to even Iceland and newfound land. They would capture hundreds of people and take them back to Morocco and force them to be slaves and convert to Islam.

Even worse in the eyes of Islam, thousands of women were taken and the ones that were judgedas "passable" were sent to the emprors haareem so he could have sex with them all! This clearly goes straight against the concept of Hijab and in no way could be argued as following it. This proves that it is not religion to blame, But in the name of Islam, things that are not Muslim have happened, do happen and will always happen. These people are judged by their close families and judged by the Ummah (family in Islam) The Ummah can be very harsh to people who do this as it is considered shirk- the unforgivvable sin.

it is a crying shame that the human mind is prejudiced and is twisted by the thoughts and actions of few muslims over the good charitable and functional thoughts and actuibs of most muslims.

For example you will never get a muslim on the doll for long periods of time. Laziness is sin. Knowledge is rewarded so many study hard and become doctors or scientists. And this is BECAUSE of Islam. Buy people fail to see the good things and only see the bad things.

Edited by smooder, 16 December 2007 - 11:56.

[Mathias]

Nothing can ever be proven to be a consequence of a god's existence or nonexistence. Ultimately, it's a question whose answer will never have any bearing on anything but the worldview of the person asking it.

[smooder]

I think god exists.

I cant remember if I said this before, but why are you reading this with your eyes?

Why isnt it somebody else reading it with your eyes?

Actually yeah i did but the point is I think God put you inside your body.

Whether there is an afterlife is a whole different kettle of fish.

[Dr. Strangelove]

smooder, on 17 Dec 2007, 0:18, said:

I think god exists.

I cant remember if I said this before, but why are you reading this with your eyes?

Why isnt it somebody else reading it with your eyes?

Actually yeah i did but the point is I think God put you inside your body.

Whether there is an afterlife is a whole different kettle of fish.

Because their brains aren't connected to my optical nerves.

[Chyros]

smooder, on 17 Dec 2007, 1:18, said:

why are you reading this with your eyes?

Because my nose wouldn't be a very good choice for it.

But all kidding aside, what exactly do you mean by "Why isnt it somebody else reading it with your eyes?" ?

[smooder]

I mean why is it you? Why are you not in a void? Why isnt it someone else expreiencing what you are seeing now? With your DNA.

I think maybe God breathes your soul into you when your about to be born. Before that you are just a bunch of cells. After you are a baby.

EDIT: When I took salvia it changed the way I think about everything. Dont think i should have took it. Freaky shit. I thought it would be fine because it was legal but its blown my brains out.

Edited by smooder, 17 December 2007 - 15:39.

[Dr. Strangelove]

And what evidence do you have that there is a "soul"?

[Mathias]

Why "someone else" isn't experiencing things from my body? Because my body is me. I am not separate from my body. If I had a different personality, I would still be me. I am the way I am because of the way I was brought up and because of the things I have seen and done.

[smooder]

I was thinking about the trillions of possible combinations of babies there could be.

If that sperm didnt meet that egg at that moment but it was a different sperm would it still be you? I think it would. I believe that the sperm and egg gives DNA but god gives you your soul.

If a different sperm fertilized the egg maybe youd have a different personality and a different hair colour but i believe it would still be you.

I thin for the first few months the foetus doesnt have a soul. It gets its soul closer to birth when it is safe.

Maybe souls can be recycled (reincarnation)