85 replies to this topic

[smooder]

In my opinion, society today is plain evil.

The evils in society?

Greed (the worst)
Intolerance (Joint worst)
Ignorance
Pride

Firstly Greed

Money. What the fuck is money? It’s nothing. Pieces of paper and metal, and now in the digital age a few ones and zeros. Yet because of it nothing can happen.
Because of bullshit money people are dying in Africa and other places. And I don't give a shit about Comic Relief and Sports relief before people start accusing me of jumping on the bandwagon. It is wrong that we need those two events to give to people that are starving and dying in the first place. And here comes greed. People are not willing to do something for nothing. I feel helpless and hopeless, because I can’t do a thing about it.

Maybe this is a tad political- but I’m not talking about the political side of things here.

I think recently I have become Anti-Iraq war. I don’t think we should pull out- because that would just make the situation worse. I think we shouldn’t have gone there in the first place. Think of it this way, you pay to give someone an operation to save someone’s life. After it is done you don’t just throw them out the hospital straight away. You need to keep them in to make sure they don’t get an infection.

The whole argument about getting rid of a dictator to make the people of Iraq richer is bullshit. If that was the motive surely we would have dropped debts for Africans instead? Wouldn't we feed them? Wouldn’t we give them the opportunity to be educated? The thing is, we don’t know the motive for the war. This is another reason I feel helpless.

Money exists because people are not willing to do something for nothing. People are greedy. Our society places debts on African countries that we know they can’t afford. So, all these debts. And what for? So we can have our pathetic little luxuries here. And why can’t we do both? Because of the money system.

There are plenty of Africans of all ages dying because of our society. But nobody gives a flying shit about some black kids dying in Africa- there we go. Discrimination Intolerance, Ignorance and Pride thrown into a bundle.. We are so much more caring about one little middle class blonde girl that goes missing in Portugal. Even then we are intolerant and say the Portuguese police can't do their own job. Why can’t we help both? Caused by all the “evils” I mentioned earlier.


Yes, if there was no money I wouldn’t be sitting here typing this. Yes there are benefits. But the bad things far outweigh the good things. If humans had learned to do something for nothing, and not be greedy then Africa would not be in the mess it is in today. And neither would the vast majority of the world. Lots of religions believe in the greater good. So we can’t use religion as a scapegoat here. We prioritise on the negativity of sexual orientation, of sexual desire, of sex in general over greed. I ask you which is worse , sexual orientation, or greed? The desire for a woman/man or greed? How do they hurt anyone?

As I said before if you are a Christian, you could believe in the greater good. Greed is in the 7 deadly sins. Sex isn’t.

And this is why I feel hopeless. Why should I believe anything our society says?

Why should I believe that drugs should be illegal when the government sell cigarettes which have so much evidence for them being detrimental to health. They do this for greed. So we can have the little luxuries.

The thing is. Why are we letting them tell us what to do when they are so corrupt?

What do you think? I have always believed society was a nice place. But now that’s been taken away from me. And I’m scared.

I apologise if in my rant I have not said “I believe” enough. It annoys me when someone of another opinion to me does that.

[Dr. Strangelove]

1:About greed:

Dr. Strangelove, on 4 Mar 2008, 1:28, said:

Quote

This is John Galt Speaking..

Part One:
Part One

Playlist:
Playlist

Watch those, and it gets the heart of why I disagree with you, greed being a virtue not a sin.

2:Intolerance is a great evil, but I think my version of it may be different from yours.

3:Ignorance:

Quote

Not knowing is not evil, refusing to know is.

4:Pride: See 1.

5: Money: See speech below and 1:

Francisco D'Anconia Speech on Money:

Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil — and he's the typical product of money." Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor — your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions — and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made — before it can be looted or mooched — made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss — the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery — that you must offer them values, not wounds — that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of GOODS. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade — with reason, not force, as their final arbiter — it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability — and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality — the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth — the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money — and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it."

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another — their only substitute, demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich — will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt — and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the double standard — the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money — the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law — men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims — then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion — when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing — when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors — when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you — when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice — you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while your damning its life-blood — money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves — slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers — as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money — and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being — the self-made man — the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose — because it contains all the others — the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity — to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide — as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns — or dollars. Take your choice — there is no other — and your time is running out."

[Cryptkeeper]

greed is not virtue first of all theres a difference between greed and desire greed it a want that extends past a point were its just simple desire to the point that you will do anything including sacrifice others freedom for the simple reason of geting what you weant only to want more and more at least thats my definition of greed

but desire is a good thing as long as it doesn't turn to greed

Edited by cryptkeeper, 17 March 2008 - 19:44.

[smooder]

Greed is most certainly not a good thing. Surely we are developed enough as a species to have an emotion called compassion. We put ourselves in another man's shoes. It is not right that we have so much and have so many opotunities which we dont take and others have so little and have no oppotunities to take in the first place.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Why is greed not a good thing?

cryptkeeper, on 17 Mar 2008, 20:44, said:

greed is not virtue first of all theres a difference between greed and desire greed it a want that extends past a point were its just simple desire to the point that you will do anything including sacrifice others freedom for the simple reason of geting what you weant only to want more and more at least thats my definition of greed

but desire is a good thing as long as it doesn't turn to greed

Ah, you have been indoctrinated in the altruist's idea of greed. You see, that is not really greed but the flipside to generosity. In altruism, virtue is determined by how much you are willing to give up to others. Thus, if you wish to be virtuous, you must give things to others and they must take them. However, aren't they being greedy when they accept your sacrifices? That is the altruist version of greed, and also why altruism is evil. It is evil because nobody can be wholly good and the world as a whole cannot have an imbalace of good and evil because there has to be as many greed people as generous ones. In my philosophy, everybody can be purely good.

Selfishness is the concern for one's self. That means you don't care about others and thus don't steal from them because they are not your concern. This does not mean selfish people can't trade, it just means that a selfish person earns all of his things with his own effort and his goal is his own happiness. What is so bad aboput that?

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

[Dauth]

I have not watched the speeches, but I have spent some time perusing the speech, however I have found, money is viewed as evil by those who have little, and as a tool by those who have it, speaking as the blurred boundary between student (and thus meals for £1/day) and middle class family. I do view money as a tool, it is also the best way of trading between people of which only one has an item to trade.

Ex no money (or money this one works for both)
A man has 2 goats while another has 2 fields of corn, a goat could be swapped for a field of corn (assuming similar values)

Ex no money,
A man has 2 goats while another has skills that are not currently in use (ex he is a blacksmith but no horses need to be shod) he will not be able to procure a goat

Ex money
A man has 2 goats while another has skills that are not currently in use (ex he is a blacksmith but no horses need to be shod) he can now spend money on a goat and next time he returns prehaps the goatherder has a horse that needs shoeing, he can be repaid.

Quote

Greed (the worst)
Intolerance (Joint worst)
Ignorance
Pride

Greed, is human nature, if you ban this you might aswell invite in Big Brother, form The Party, learn Newspeak and call yourselves Ingsoc

Intolerance, nah, I'm intolerant of a lot of things, rascists, suicide bombers, those who would deny my freedom of speech and thought. Yet I'm not having people killed for it...

Ignorance, I'm ignorant of a lot of things, should I be condenmed as evil (please go for it, it's wonderfully funny)? I don't know how to fly a 747-400, I could possibly learn, and would be interested. Ignorance is not a crime, wanting to stay ignorant; thats another matter.

Pride, so it's not ok for me to say, I've written a damn good lab report I am proud of the work, I think that it would be hard for me to improve on this? While not true for lab reports, that could be true for any number of things, prehaps a meal for less than 50p that fills 3 people and tastes nice? Surely I can be proud of my efforts?



Smooder, Society doesn't have evils, it's just a word to describe a bunch of people who can be grouped together, each person has the capacity to make others miserable, that would have more weighting as an evil than anything you've listed.

[Wizard]

Dr. Strangelove, on 17 Mar 2008, 23:25, said:

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

The mear fact that you have to put those words in extra large size everytime you make a point Strangelove proves that we don't care what Galt thinks. And in future don't do that.

You are entitled to your belief on his "thoughts" and I wouldn't dream of it being otherwise, but some of us don't agree and don't want to know it as the answer you give for every topic in the PC.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Wizard, on 17 Mar 2008, 23:53, said:

Dr. Strangelove, on 17 Mar 2008, 23:25, said:

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

The mear fact that you have to put those words in extra large size everytime you make a point Strangelove proves that we don't care what Galt thinks. And in future don't do that.

You are entitled to your belief on his "thoughts" and I wouldn't dream of it being otherwise, but some of us don't agree and don't want to know it as the answer you give for every topic in the PC.

I'm sorry, it's just that I get a little pissed when someone calls me and everything I stand for evil and then starts a discussion about it but doesn't listen to my protests.

[Cryptkeeper]

Dr. Strangelove, on 17 Mar 2008, 18:25, said:

Why is greed not a good thing?

cryptkeeper, on 17 Mar 2008, 20:44, said:

greed is not virtue first of all theres a difference between greed and desire greed it a want that extends past a point were its just simple desire to the point that you will do anything including sacrifice others freedom for the simple reason of geting what you weant only to want more and more at least thats my definition of greed

but desire is a good thing as long as it doesn't turn to greed

Ah, you have been indoctrinated in the altruist's idea of greed. You see, that is not really greed but the flipside to generosity. In altruism, virtue is determined by how much you are willing to give up to others. Thus, if you wish to be virtuous, you must give things to others and they must take them. However, aren't they being greedy when they accept your sacrifices? That is the altruist version of greed, and also why altruism is evil. It is evil because nobody can be wholly good and the world as a whole cannot have an imbalace of good and evil because there has to be as many greed people as generous ones. In my philosophy, everybody can be purely good.

Selfishness is the concern for one's self. That means you don't care about others and thus don't steal from them because they are not your concern. This does not mean selfish people can't trade, it just means that a selfish person earns all of his things with his own effort and his goal is his own happiness. What is so bad aboput that?



also I did not say you were evil oO i just have different definition of greed thats all

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

see I have in fact seen those videos and read thank you for posting it such size and color as for me to see it as I said its my definition

and being genrious is totally different instead for taking away some one chooses to give them more its this constant take and take attitude of course its totally your choose to give and you should not be prosecuted or looked down upon if you don't

also I didn't call you evil oO I just have different definition of greed

Edited by cryptkeeper, 18 March 2008 - 03:21.

[AllStarZ]

Some of us can't be arsed to watch your video, so why don't you enlighten us instead?

[Shirou]

I don't have to watch anything or read any super long time consuming speeches.. There is only one thing to say about this.

smooder, on 17 Mar 2008, 15:18, said:

In my opinion, society today is plain evil.

The evils in society?

Greed (the worst)
Intolerance (Joint worst)
Ignorance
Pride

Has it ever been different? Do you really think that it will ever be different?

[Wizard]

What frustrates me about this is the irony of the situation. We are social animals but fundamentally can't get along. Something instinctive puts us at loggerheads with everyone else. Maybe the survival instinct extends beyond the preservation of life into the preservation of our image of ourself? Hence why we can't get past those sins Smooder has highlighted.

[Dauth]

There are lines of strata of creatures with inferiour survival instincts, I think we'll do quite well keeping them. As for being social animals, all social animals fight, it's just we do it in sooo many varied ways.

[Wizard]

True they fight, but Smooder is talking about the way we treat each other. Conflict is one thing, but a complete disregard for your fellow man, well that is something unique. Fighting is the ascertation of authority over another using brute force. What we have here, that's well....just different. Taking his point on African poverty. There is no conflict there between them and us. So where does this stem from? Africa isn't likely to place my life in danger anytime soon. So why don't I care about their suffering? I have no conscious wish to have the subjugate to my benefit. What's with that?

[Dauth]

Thats simple, effort vs reward.

People will plough a field and tend it for a year, because it will feed them

People will work for money to buy food and other items, such as luxeries

People won't donate because that lovely warm glow is hard to have when you suspect most of the donation is lost in beaurocracy and that the people benefitting will be dead by the end of the month regardless.

This sounds cruel/harsh but it's the simple picture done in a matter of minutes not a 1400 word discourse into sociology.

[smooder]

Dauth, on 17 Mar 2008, 23:48, said:

I have not watched the speeches, but I have spent some time perusing the speech, however I have found, money is viewed as evil by those who have little, and as a tool by those who have it, speaking as the blurred boundary between student (and thus meals for £1/day) and middle class family. I do view money as a tool, it is also the best way of trading between people of which only one has an item to trade.

Ex no money (or money this one works for both)
A man has 2 goats while another has 2 fields of corn, a goat could be swapped for a field of corn (assuming similar values)

Ex no money,
A man has 2 goats while another has skills that are not currently in use (ex he is a blacksmith but no horses need to be shod) he will not be able to procure a goat

Ex money
A man has 2 goats while another has skills that are not currently in use (ex he is a blacksmith but no horses need to be shod) he can now spend money on a goat and next time he returns prehaps the goatherder has a horse that needs shoeing, he can be repaid.

Quote

Greed (the worst)
Intolerance (Joint worst)
Ignorance
Pride

Quote

Greed, is human nature, if you ban this you might aswell invite in Big Brother, form The Party, learn Newspeak and call yourselves Ingsoc

Intolerance, nah, I'm intolerant of a lot of things, rascists, suicide bombers, those who would deny my freedom of speech and thought. Yet I'm not having people killed for it...

Ignorance, I'm ignorant of a lot of things, should I be condenmed as evil (please go for it, it's wonderfully funny)? I don't know how to fly a 747-400, I could possibly learn, and would be interested. Ignorance is not a crime, wanting to stay ignorant; thats another matter.

Pride, so it's not ok for me to say, I've written a damn good lab report I am proud of the work, I think that it would be hard for me to improve on this? While not true for lab reports, that could be true for any number of things, prehaps a meal for less than 50p that fills 3 people and tastes nice? Surely I can be proud of my efforts?



Smooder, Society doesn't have evils, it's just a word to describe a bunch of people who can be grouped together, each person has the capacity to make others miserable, that would have more weighting as an evil than anything you've listed.

I think you misunderstood my points. Greed is human nature yes. But I'm talking about taking something that somebody else is in dire need of, or refusing to help them by giving them something which you have lots of. We have lots of money. But why do we have lots of money? Just because we have lots of money does that mean we should get all the food? What the fuck is money? We have 80% of the worlds food. And in Britain we waste 2/3 of our food. This is disgracefull. We waste this food which we purchase with our money when people need it elsewhere? Why not buy 1/3 less food and ship more staples to Africa? Because we are fucking greedy thats why. Oh, and I'm sure it "would cost too much money" to ship food to Africa too. Well no. It would take someone to not demand money in return to ship the fucking food, Oil and a boat. If money didnt exist it wouldnt be nescesarry. Your a logical person dauth. I'm not, but If I put it into algebra 2n can be simplified to n. Dont know if that made sense but I'm trying to put it in another perspective.
If you saw someone who had had their head kicked in on the street what would you do? Would you walk on, or would you stop and help? Phone an ambulance perhaps?

Its exactly the same situation but on a far greater scale in Africa. They are dying. They need food. They need drugs. They need seeeds for fields of crops and the oppotunity to be educated. (Seeds of knowledge) But we are not phoning the ambulance when we would be perfectly capable of doing so if there wasnt the excuse of money in the way.

And yes, greed is human nature. But it should be worked on. We should help the people in Africa. We have too much, they have too little. Theres nothing I can do about it. Theres nothing you can do about it. There's something society can do about it.

If I ran through the streets of Manchester naked I would be arrested. Am I harming anyone? No. But I am being "immodest" and "provoking lust". But I ask you. Which one has society "worked on" more. The huge problems of Greed? Or the little problems of "Lust". Lust. Why? Because its easier. Because we are hypocritical. Another thing. Hypocrisy is spawned by all the things I mentioned.


As for your comments on intolerance. You are commiting my definition of the "sins" of ignorance and pride just with that. Maybe you didnt think about it but you did. I'm assuming you read what I said. You understood what I said. but you chose to ignore it. Then you chose to try and make your self seem intelligent with your response to me. Thats the thing about humans. I'm sure you didnt do it on purpose, and I completley don't blame you. I'm guilty of them all the time. I cannot help it. But we can work on it.


More on the "sin" of pride. I'm not talking about feeling good about yourself after you've done a good lab report. Perhaps I'm not making myself clear enough here. I'm talking about being macho let me give you an example. If some people. Fat people, Skinny people etc. went to a gym and did weights, theyd get ridiculed. What for? because the people in the gym are so much better than them. Its stupid and needs to change. The fat person wants to do a good thing and loose weight, but now is made out to look like an absolute tosser by some macho macho tough guy.

Aftershock, on 18 Mar 2008, 21:08, said:

I don't have to watch anything or read any super long time consuming speeches.. There is only one thing to say about this.

smooder, on 17 Mar 2008, 15:18, said:

In my opinion, society today is plain evil.

The evils in society?

Greed (the worst)
Intolerance (Joint worst)
Ignorance
Pride

Has it ever been different? Do you really think that it will ever be different?

It was probably different when we were hunter gatherers. And it will be different if we as western society all realise this and work on these parts of our nature instead of other natural things, like sexuality.

Wizard, on 19 Mar 2008, 0:03, said:

True they fight, but Smooder is talking about the way we treat each other. Conflict is one thing, but a complete disregard for your fellow man, well that is something unique. Fighting is the ascertation of authority over another using brute force. What we have here, that's well....just different. Taking his point on African poverty. There is no conflict there between them and us. So where does this stem from? Africa isn't likely to place my life in danger anytime soon. So why don't I care about their suffering? I have no conscious wish to have the subjugate to my benefit. What's with that?

That is what I mean also.


I find it hard to explain why I am so aggrivated by these things.

EDIT: Dauth posted whilst I was typing

Quote

People won't donate because that lovely warm glow is hard to have when you suspect most of the donation is lost in beaurocracy and that the people benefitting will be dead by the end of the month regardless.

This sounds cruel/harsh but it's the simple picture done in a matter of minutes not a 1400 word discourse into sociology.

By saying that you have proven my point so much more. The system of money is rendering charity pointless. But charity is not pointless.

You should not give to charity for the lovely glow or the recognition. You should give because its the right thing to do. Because you are gratefull that you are not in the same situation as the people you help, because you care for your fellow man.

Edited by smooder, 19 March 2008 - 00:34.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Is there a reason why you altruist-collectivists are failing to give me a reason why greed is bad?

@Allstarz: The first four videos are only 20 minutes long combined. Don't you have that much time to burn? You might realize completely new philosophical principals.

@Dauth: In case you haven't noticed, I'm providing a moral/philosophical reason for what you have rejected on practical grounds.

@Smooder:

What the fuck is money you ask? Look no further:

Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil — and he's the typical product of money." Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.
"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?
"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor — your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?
"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions — and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.
"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made — before it can be looted or mooched — made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.
"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss — the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery — that you must offer them values, not wounds — that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of GOODS. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade — with reason, not force, as their final arbiter — it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability — and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?
"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality — the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.
"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?
"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth — the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?
"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?
"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?
"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money — and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it."
"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.
"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another — their only substitute, demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich — will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt — and of his life, as he deserves.
"Then you will see the rise of the double standard — the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money — the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law — men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims — then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.
"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion — when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing — when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors — when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you — when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice — you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.
"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.
"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while your damning its life-blood — money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves — slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers — as industrialists.
"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money — and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being — the self-made man — the American industrialist.
"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose — because it contains all the others — the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity — to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.
"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide — as, I think, he will.
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns — or dollars. Take your choice — there is no other — and your time is running out."

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 19 March 2008 - 08:56.

[Wizard]

Dr. Strangelove, on 19 Mar 2008, 7:32, said:

Is there a reason why you altruist-collectivists are failing to give me a reason why greed is bad?

Yes the reason is you'll probably post something else that is 8,000 words long that we'll never bother to read so as to argue with you.

And risking the above - it's bad because greed can cause the detriment of many others in favour of the individual. That = BAD. No amount of youtube vids will change my mind either.

Edited by Wizard, 19 March 2008 - 13:00.

[nip]

The evil unleashed by freaky objectivists worshipping materialism. Strength over moral is their party slogan.

Dr. Strangelove, on 18 Mar 2008, 0:25, said:

Why is greed not a good thing?

/nip'ed

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

And the Ayn Rand faction parties too much here. Ayn Rand - my ass gets pimply when I hear this name. She campaigned for greed, selfishness and inequality; she sermonized the destruction of society. Zero-sum, giving the rich by taking from the poor, modern policy making is saturated by her ideology. Rand's work is undemocratic, her ideology utterly inhuman and she has done some remarkable damage to US society. The libertarianism and the injustice she preaches is toxin for society, social competition easily slides into open conflict and such a developement is hard to reverse. And still, she inspires the young and damages the remaining common good. A common good nobody talk about anymore anyway. The young seem 'dangerous-ideology-prone', when I was young I sympathized with a certain German three letter acronym...

Back to presence, our free market societies are perfect breeders for many evils. A theory is that corruption, crimes and wars are of vital interest for our wealth and prosperity. All kind of wrongdoings translate into business energy, exactly the energy our economic system needs to prosper. The thief keeps the locksmith busy; the bloke who hawks stolen stuff is producing profit which is good for economy, insurance industry isn't complaining - premium is flexible. The building sector is happy to erect the walls for the rich. And wars are of course the nonpareil, current technologies can be tested, stocks need to be refilled while simultaneously blue prints for new tech goodies develope out of the shit. Wealth squared.

But the safest wealth of a free nation is a huge number of uneducated and hard working poor. Working poor who play the funny zero-sum game 24/7. While enjoying self-centeredness people do not notice or simply ignore the foul outcome. Prosperity generates poverty which is good, because poverty guarantees a certain level of inequality. Inequality is needed in a greedy system, the big wheel needs infinite amount of new small cogs. Money must cycle, anything stashed away from lousy monthly payments is a crime against prosperity (of others). But hey, isn't there a bit of justice in the system? Well, justice will be one of the casualities, a free market system runs less on justice than on wealth.

Justice(*) herself, famed for fair Dealing,
By blindness had not lost her Feeling;
Her left hand, which the scales should hold,
Had often dropt ‘em, bribed with Gold.

Gold of the filthy rich of course. Perhaps you get some crumbs on special offer? Greedily grab what you can, while you can. This is Ayn Rand's little world, a world without human emotion, with money money über alles. A world driven by sin. Close your eyes and drown in materialism. Bernard Mandeville splendidly describes such ethics in The Fable of the Bees: or, Private Vices.

"One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one’s way to get the best for oneself. Fine!"
Ayn Rand

Pride and ignorance are akin.

--------



(*)An interesting read about justice is Platon's Politeia. He describes an analogy of the soul and the state, and according to Platon no form of government is endless. In 'Part III: Decline of the Polis' he tells why and that democracy inevitably will degenerate into tyranny. Be prepared.

Idol worship aka money speech in German, pdf
The philosophy of Ayn Rand
Bernard Mandeville - Fable Of The Bees and The Grumbling Hive: or Knaves Turn'd Honest - an essay.

[Cryptkeeper]

well as i said i agree with some points while others are off base money resources none of it is the root of all evil or the root of all thats good in fact its completely neutral but its human 's I'll use a different word then greed this time animal instinct to gain more then others that corrupts society today becuase it goes far beyound that to control others its that controlling others part that i believe is wrong every one needs choose and freedom but threaten there lives becuase you have the money or recourses to put them behind bars or kill them unjustifiable in logical point of a view

but there is a good side to that instinct the choose to better are selves and support of those around us through work

Edited by cryptkeeper, 19 March 2008 - 18:41.

[Dr. Strangelove]

EDIT1:@Everyone who disagrees with me: Please read even just the highlighted sections of the speech above.

Wizard, on 19 Mar 2008, 12:59, said:

Dr. Strangelove, on 19 Mar 2008, 7:32, said:

Is there a reason why you altruist-collectivists are failing to give me a reason why greed is bad?

Yes the reason is you'll probably post something else that is 8,000 words long that we'll never bother to read so as to argue with you.

And risking the above - it's bad because greed can cause the detriment of many others in favour of the individual. That = BAD. No amount of youtube vids will change my mind either.

Quote

But you say that money is made by the strong(individual) at the expense of the weak(others)? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made — before it can be looted or mooched — made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________-

nipthecat, on 19 Mar 2008, 17:34, said:

The evil unleashed by freaky objectivists worshipping materialism. Strength over moral is their party slogan.

Dr. Strangelove, on 18 Mar 2008, 0:25, said:

Why is greed not a good thing?

/nip'ed

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND READ THE SPEECH I POSTED!

And the Ayn Rand faction parties too much here. Ayn Rand - my ass gets pimply when I hear this name. She campaigned for greed, selfishness and inequality; she sermonized the destruction of society. Zero-sum, giving the rich by taking from the poor, modern policy making is saturated by her ideology. Rand's work is undemocratic, her ideology utterly inhuman and she has done some remarkable damage to US society. The libertarianism and the injustice she preaches is toxin for society, social competition easily slides into open conflict and such a developement is hard to reverse. And still, she inspires the young and damages the remaining common good. A common good nobody talk about anymore anyway. The young seem 'dangerous-ideology-prone', when I was young I sympathized with a certain German three letter acronym...

Back to presence, our free market societies are perfect breeders for many evils. A theory is that corruption, crimes and wars are of vital interest for our wealth and prosperity. All kind of wrongdoings translate into business energy, exactly the energy our economic system needs to prosper. The thief keeps the locksmith busy; the bloke who hawks stolen stuff is producing profit which is good for economy, insurance industry isn't complaining - premium is flexible. The building sector is happy to erect the walls for the rich. And wars are of course the nonpareil, current technologies can be tested, stocks need to be refilled while simultaneously blue prints for new tech goodies develope out of the shit. Wealth squared.

But the safest wealth of a free nation is a huge number of uneducated and hard working poor. Working poor who play the funny zero-sum game 24/7. While enjoying self-centeredness people do not notice or simply ignore the foul outcome. Prosperity generates poverty which is good, because poverty guarantees a certain level of inequality. Inequality is needed in a greedy system, the big wheel needs infinite amount of new small cogs. Money must cycle, anything stashed away from lousy monthly payments is a crime against prosperity (of others). But hey, isn't there a bit of justice in the system? Well, justice will be one of the casualities, a free market system runs less on justice than on wealth.

Justice(*) herself, famed for fair Dealing,
By blindness had not lost her Feeling;
Her left hand, which the scales should hold,
Had often dropt ‘em, bribed with Gold.

Gold of the filthy rich of course. Perhaps you get some crumbs on special offer? Greedily grab what you can, while you can. This is Ayn Rand's little world, a world without human emotion, with money money über alles. A world driven by sin. Close your eyes and drown in materialism. Bernard Mandeville splendidly describes such ethics in The Fable of the Bees: or, Private Vices.

"One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one’s way to get the best for oneself. Fine!"
Ayn Rand

Pride and ignorance are akin.

--------



(*)An interesting read about justice is Platon's Politeia. He describes an analogy of the soul and the state, and according to Platon no form of government is endless. In 'Part III: Decline of the Polis' he tells why and that democracy inevitably will degenerate into tyranny. Be prepared.

Idol worship aka money speech in German, pdf
The philosophy of Ayn Rand
Bernard Mandeville - Fable Of The Bees and The Grumbling Hive: or Knaves Turn'd Honest - an essay.

0:"Strength over morality": How much about this philosophy do you actually understand!?A huge chunk of Objectivism is that Might does not make Right.
1:Inequality yes, all men are created equal. By their actions they gain or loose value.
2:Oh, really?As much damage as the communist policies she diametrically opposed did to the Soviet Union and China?
3:Don't ever compare Objectivism to the Nazis it opposed.
4:Capitalists have absolutely no use for war and crime. A bank functions much better without having to worry about robbers. A factory does better when their buildings aren't bombed out.
5:A man who produces fake items and sells them is stealing. That does no good for anyone. He doesn't gain because he hasn't produced-made-any money.
6:The uneducated laborers are worth the least in a capitalistic society. The can only provide muscle power. A carpenter is worth more because he multiplies muscle by brain power and produces a chair that is worth more than the brute physical force required to make it. As the amount of brainpower is increased the returns do so at an exponential rate, hence why a robotics engineer is more valuable because he can produce unimaginably more.
7: Your prosperity is not judged against that of others. You can be perfectly prosperous by producing wealth and not stealing it, and if your fellow man does it too than good for him.Now, everybody is in a better position.
8:Inequality comes from the fact that some men have produced-and are hence more moral-than others. The only other way to do it is by forcing everybody to forfeit their responsibility and self-accountability by bringing them down to the same rock-bottom level: Slavery.
9:Au contraire, A free market system cannot exist without justice. A free market requires accountability; to pay fees, uphold contractual agreements. Not to mention that robbers need to be punished because they violate an individual's rights to their property and hence life.
10:You do not "grab" money, you make it:

Quote

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose — because it contains all the others — the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity — to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality."...
..."Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

11:Why is greed sin?Why is it that to produce something and keep it evil?Why is it evil if I want to cook a meal and eat it because it would be good for me?
12:If Ayn Rand actually said that-which I highly doubt-I disagree with her on that point.
13:Ignorance and Pride are polar opposites. Ignorance is not to know, whilst pride comes from knowing that you are a good person.

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 20 March 2008 - 00:21.

[smooder]

Right so by that bullshit philosophy the reason why Africa is so poor is because everyone there are idiots.

Blantant and utter racism.


The reason is that western society raped Africa, and no longer gives them the oppotunity to be educated or the oppotunity to try hard.

[Dr. Strangelove]

No, they're poor because:

1:The geography is unfavorable to say the least. Read Guns, Germs, and Steel.
2:They suffer from rampant war.
3:They suffer from rampant crime as well.
4:Their intellect has been throttled by altruist ideologies and religions.
5:They have oppressive freedom hating governments.
6:They started off in a much worse position.See 1.

And yes, they do score lower on IQ on average than Europeans, though this probably just because they can't afford a better education.

[Cryptkeeper]

ok capitalism just like anythign else has its dark side and light its light side is that it strives to get things done to produce stuff people need becuase they gain something out of it in return its dark side is those who use it corrupt it to the point were they absolutely need to get more from less work which happens in many corporations today


basically heres a good example in order to make more profit the lower the overall quality of items while producing more becuase they know people need these items to live so by making them lower and lower quality only means more money to them becuase A. they either break easy requiring another purchase or B. are simply inefficient but easy to produce for the more profit then they were originally

this constant strive to make just that much more profit causes more and more problems is it evil no but is justified no as theres no point in making more profit if you already are making a profit you are just trying to gain more of what you already have this vicious cycle repeats till you have literally drained your only means of obtaining such profit like a vampire who just can't get enough blood drains the corpses of people till there no one left to drain instead of conserving letting it be just steady flow he had to rott everything around him without letting it get regenerated.

[Dr. Strangelove]

cryptkeeper, on 20 Mar 2008, 1:39, said:

ok capitalism just like anythign else has its dark side and light its light side is that it strives to get things done to produce stuff people need becuase they gain something out of it in return its dark side is those who use it corrupt it to the point were they absolutely need to get more from less work which happens in many corporations today


basically heres a good example in order to make more profit the lower the overall quality of items while producing more becuase they know people need these items to live so by making them lower and lower quality only means more money to them becuase A. they either break easy requiring another purchase or B. are simply inefficient but easy to produce for the more profit then they were originally

this constant strive to make just that much more profit causes more and more problems is it evil no but is justified no as theres no point in making more profit if you already are making a profit you are just trying to gain more of what you already have this vicious cycle repeats till you have literally drained your only means of obtaining such profit like a vampire who just can't get enough blood drains the corpses of people till there no one left to drain instead of conserving letting it be just steady flow he had to rott everything around him without letting it get regenerated.

So nothing can be morally perfect?