49 replies to this topic

[Zero]

I'm sorry then, I didn't know that part. But again, we don't know for certain, also, there's the matter of the matter that gets pulled in and converted.

So, any new arguements based on proven/provable physics?

Is that all? Well, if it is thank you all, I'll post anything new I can find that's interesting. Thanks again!!

Edited by Dauth, 17 May 2008 - 13:06.

[Dauth]

Triple post merged, matter converted to energy will still be kept in the black hole

[Nakamura]

tskasa1, on 16 May 2008, 11:52, said:

I'm sorry, I forgot that I shouldn't have used polar oppossites, I was just trying to show that they are complete oppossites, exact oppossites, in fact as one sucks in while out pushes out. So, does anyone think it is possible and if not, why?

Sorry for that late response but I have seen this topic first today.

What do you mean under "pushing out"?
Do you want to use "anti gravitation"?
If yes than you will need a new family of all particles whre they have a negative mass wich is impossible, I think.

[Medve]

This topic looks great, I discussed this elsewhere and it has too many problems to be true. And these problems are with the law of physics which "usually" apply.

Medve

[̀̀̀̀█]

Nakamura, on 18 May 2008, 4:23, said:

tskasa1, on 16 May 2008, 11:52, said:

I'm sorry, I forgot that I shouldn't have used polar oppossites, I was just trying to show that they are complete oppossites, exact oppossites, in fact as one sucks in while out pushes out. So, does anyone think it is possible and if not, why?

Sorry for that late response but I have seen this topic first today.

What do you mean under "pushing out"?
Do you want to use "anti gravitation"?
If yes than you will need a new family of all particles whre they have a negative mass wich is impossible, I think.

Lol antimatter

medve said:

This topic looks great, I discussed this elsewhere and it has too many problems to be true. And these problems are with the law of physics which "usually" apply.

Medve

Lolwut? Regular laws of physics do not apply to things that can make planets disappear....... Or appear in once case of white holes....... Also, black holes have too many problems to be true, as do most quantum objects.

[Dr. Strangelove]

̀̀̀̀█, on 19 May 2008, 4:02, said:

Lol antimatter

Lolwut? Regular laws of physics do not apply to things that can make planets disappear....... Or appear in once case of white holes....... Also, black holes have too many problems to be true, as do most quantum objects.

Antimatter does not have negative mass.

Black holes are not nearly small enough to qualify as quantum objects.

[Nakamura]

Dr. Strangelove, on 19 May 2008, 6:14, said:

̀̀̀̀█, on 19 May 2008, 4:02, said:

Lol antimatter

Lolwut? Regular laws of physics do not apply to things that can make planets disappear....... Or appear in once case of white holes....... Also, black holes have too many problems to be true, as do most quantum objects.

Antimatter does not have negative mass.

Black holes are not nearly small enough to qualify as quantum objects.

Man don't you understand that this "lol antimatter" post was yust a joke?
I just wanted to say that it's impossibole that a unknown kind of particles are causing "anti gravitation" and that they're building white holes.

[Dauth]

What's the force carrier 'boson' of the cosmological constant then?

[Nakamura]

Dauth, on 19 May 2008, 8:29, said:

What's the force carrier 'boson' of the cosmological constant then?

Has it been prooved that a boson carries the force of the cc or is it yust a theory? (I'm not very "up to date" in this topic)
I've heard that the negative pressure of the vacuum causes the expansion of the universe. I'm not sure that I'm saying smart things now, so I'll have to read a bit about bosons.

[Dauth]

One of the rules of the standard model, every force has a force boson. Why should cc be different?

[Nakamura]

Dauth, on 19 May 2008, 16:41, said:

One of the rules of the standard model, every force has a force boson. Why should cc be different?

Do you want to say that the cc is the fifth elementar force or are these bosons equipped with a gravity"charge" (and so the cc =anti gravity)?

[CodeCat]

Actually... that's an interesting point. Gravity might have a yet undiscovered secondary part associated with it, much like how magnetism is a weaker force associated with electricity. In fact, since magnetism is now generally held to be a relativistic effect of electromagnetism that occurs with moving charges, couldn't this hidden effect be a relativistic effect of large masses moving at high speeds?

[Zero]

I've come up with a paradox (well, not really a paradox, but something like it) that'll allow my theory to exist. Remember how you said that all matter and energy that enters a black hole stays inside, well that's both true and untrue, here's why:

As matter/energy approaches a black hole's singularity, the laws of space-time start to fluctuate, and time essentially stops. Remember how I said that even if a white hole only lasted a few milliseconds, because time stops at the singularity, even though there the time span is so small, all the matter that will ever enter the black hole would get ejected because of the time distortion. I say that because because time stops at the singularity of both holes, and since they are connected by a "bridge," their lifespans are connected (even if one only lasts the time needed to blink an eye).

Now, keeping that in mind, let me get back to the point of the singularity. Remembering what was said above, because they are connected, and time is relatively non-existent to black holes, whenever it absorbs matter, it stays inside until it collapses, but because they are linked, it is also ejected from the white hole also. Here's how:
-The black hole absorbs the matter
-The matter is converted into energy inside the black hole
-Because the singularity pretty much stops time, everything that is added to the black hole stays inside
-Also, because the time stops, however, when the energy is transfered to the white hole, it also stays inside because it is pretty much frozen in time (It may not make sense but here's an example: the popular example of what would happen if you fell into a black hole is that you would be falling towards the singularity, spaghettifing or whatever, but you would also be able to see anything in the universe's history/future because time is distorted and you would think you are falling forever even though you are being converted to energy, you'll never exist to see it happen, because you're perception of time is all messed up. In the same way the energy would be both frozen at the singularity and travel through the "bridge" and ejected to the other side, not to say that the enrgy would be duplicated, it's just that it is also frozen in time during the black hole's lifespan)
-Finally, the matter is ejected, the photons collide and form quarks, leptons, etc. which would then form into more complex forms of matter, resulting in a tachyon that will eventually slow down as the laws of physics apply

That is all, what I said may be REALLY hard to keep up with because it is a very hard thing to explain and I personally think I did a really sucky job, but it's the best I could do. Hope you can understand it and help me out with any problems. Thank you very much and sorry for any inconveniences!!!!

[Nakamura]

tskasa1, on 22 May 2008, 0:43, said:

I've come up with a paradox (well, not really a paradox, but something like it) that'll allow my theory to exist. Remember how you said that all matter and energy that enters a black hole stays inside, well that's both true and untrue, here's why:

As matter/energy approaches a black hole's singularity, the laws of space-time start to fluctuate, and time essentially stops. Remember how I said that even if a white hole only lasted a few milliseconds, because time stops at the singularity, even though there the time span is so small, all the matter that will ever enter the black hole would get ejected because of the time distortion. I say that because because time stops at the singularity of both holes, and since they are connected by a "bridge," their lifespans are connected (even if one only lasts the time needed to blink an eye).

Now, keeping that in mind, let me get back to the point of the singularity. Remembering what was said above, because they are connected, and time is relatively non-existent to black holes, whenever it absorbs matter, it stays inside until it collapses, but because they are linked, it is also ejected from the white hole also. Here's how:
-The black hole absorbs the matter
-The matter is converted into energy inside the black hole
-Because the singularity pretty much stops time, everything that is added to the black hole stays inside
-Also, because the time stops, however, when the energy is transfered to the white hole, it also stays inside because it is pretty much frozen in time (It may not make sense but here's an example: the popular example of what would happen if you fell into a black hole is that you would be falling towards the singularity, spaghettifing or whatever, but you would also be able to see anything in the universe's history/future because time is distorted and you would think you are falling forever even though you are being converted to energy, you'll never exist to see it happen, because you're perception of time is all messed up. In the same way the energy would be both frozen at the singularity and travel through the "bridge" and ejected to the other side, not to say that the enrgy would be duplicated, it's just that it is also frozen in time during the black hole's lifespan)
-Finally, the matter is ejected, the photons collide and form quarks, leptons, etc. which would then form into more complex forms of matter, resulting in a tachyon that will eventually slow down as the laws of physics apply

That is all, what I said may be REALLY hard to keep up with because it is a very hard thing to explain and I personally think I did a really sucky job, but it's the best I could do. Hope you can understand it and help me out with any problems. Thank you very much and sorry for any inconveniences!!!!

You have probably heard about the string theory. I'm sure that it could help you much.

[Zero]

String theory? I've heard the name but I've never looked into it, maybe I should.

[Dauth]

Ignore it, it's just 50 years of maths. So far there has not been a single physical prediction that can be measured.

[Zero]

Can someone please tell me what string theory is (and please keep it simple).

[Rumpullpus]

by white hole do you mean quazars? because what you described sounded alot like a quazar to me.

[Hobbesy]

Destiny, on 14 May 2008, 4:45, said:

What next, a Biologist?

<_< >_>

The rare Siberian tiger is often poached for it's valuable and beautiful fur. Luckily, Russian officials have gone in the direction of new laws to....

Edited by Høbbesy, 31 May 2008 - 17:27.

[Zero]

Høbbesy, on 31 May 2008, 17:26, said:

Destiny, on 14 May 2008, 4:45, said:

What next, a Biologist?

<_< >_>

a)What does that mean?

b)No, not quasars, look up what a white hole is in wikipedia, it'll give you a pretty general view of what it is.

[Dauth]

He's I think commenting on my tagline. I am the Forum Physicist, Chyros is our resident Chemist and IIRC AJPod is the Biologist.

Do not burden yourself with string theory. I have been doing a degree for 4 years and never had it mentioned to me. That's how obscure and useless it is.

[Zero]

Dauth, on 2 Jun 2008, 23:21, said:

He's I think commenting on my tagline. I am the Forum Physicist, Chyros is our resident Chemist and IIRC AJPod is the Biologist.

Do not burden yourself with string theory. I have been doing a degree for 4 years and never had it mentioned to me. That's how obscure and useless it is.

Thanks for explaining it to me dude. By the way, what do you think of the revised hypo., I think I did a really crappy job of putting it together, so it may be hard to understand, but I think the idea makes sense and is possible.

[Zero]

Sorry for bringing this topic back to life but I'm thinking of doing this for a science fair, my chem. teacher even told me he could get a college prof. to help me out. Is the energy-matter conversion possible? Also, does this make any sense. Please make sure you tell me why or why not. Also, I am doing this because I don't want to waste the time of anyone at a university, so can you please tell me if this is plausible? And if so, why not?

[Dauth]

Matter and energy are the same thing. There are several forms of energy:
Kinetic
Potential (as in a field, be it gravity, electric or magnetic)
Matter

Converting matter to energy can only happen at very high energies, without really knowing how much you know, I can't really explain further.

For a science fair, you could do something on possible faster than light particles, mainly because I don't think anyone will know enough to argue.

[Zero]

I was bored, so I did some more research and came up with a more stable hypothesis a few weeks back for traversable wormholes, also, the same tachyon approach counts except that now I learned something. I was more ignorant before, and had failed to find out that photons were hadrons, so I am willing to change it, as will be explained (I think) in the essay:

Quote

Then there are white holes, the exact opposite of black holes in terms of the way in which they behave. However, the problem with White Holes is that their function in the universe is either unexplained or they go against the Laws of Thermodynamics. Also, they’re formation is somewhat of a mystery and their existence inside a Schwarzschild wormhole (which is the only possible way they could exist in our universe without going against most of the laws of the conventional universe) is also disputable since the wormhole collapses as soon as it forms.

For the formations of the White Holes I am hypothesizing that white holes and black holes are formed almost instantaneously. I am hypothesizing that when a black hole is formed, the singularity’s infinite mass actually distorts the space-time around it, causing a bend in the space-time continuum, although not in the traditional sense. The singularity’s mass would actually bend the space-time around it and align the two points (see Image 2) forming the wormhole. In other words, when the black hole’s singularity is formed it bends the space time around it and the white hole is formed at the end of the wormhole, albeit it is the opposite end of the same black hole, connected by space-time, although it cannot be seen because the “throat” of the wormhole is invisible as it actually cuts directly through the space-time in between the two objects instead of going the distance through conventional methods. To put it simply, the black hole is a pipe in which you drop a ball- although the mid-section is relatively nonexistent due to the above explained phenomena- the top end sucks up the matter and the bottom end ejects the matter and acts as a white hole.
Although, of course, the problem with Schwarzschild wormholes still exist: it violates the second law of thermodynamics (the law of entropy), and the fact that they are so unstable that the throat of the wormhole (the region connecting the two singularities) would collapses at almost the same exact second it was formed. First of all, the law of entropy merely states that things use up fuel and that there is no way to introduce new matter/energy into an ordered system. This, however, is not true in this case and will be explained later on.
For the stability problem, many scientist assume that exotic matter (or matter that has negative mass or contradicts another law of the universe usually followed by normal matter, in other words, it actually goes up, not down) may be able to keep the wormhole open, but I disagree that is even necessary. When scientists talk about the collapse, we are assuming that the wormhole would follow the same conventional laws of time as we do, however, we know for a fact that it does not, or to be more specific, the black hole doesn’t.
As soon as matter passes the area known as the event horizon, because of the immense gravitational pull, anything that goes past the event horizon is pulled into the black hole and lost forever (although some of its mass gets ejected from the poles of the black hole as Hawkings radiation), although what happens to the rest of the mass is unknown, most scientist say it stays in the black hole forever. What would happen at the singularity would render the absorbed matter (now only quarks and leptons, the atoms having been torn apart approaching the singularity) into the simplest forms of matter. I say this because the singularity would produce electromagnetic fields strong enough to break apart the atoms into hadrons (see definition) and then break those hadrons down into the even smaller particles that make them up, the same would apply for photons which would be separated into the simpler particles which it carries (the gamma, x-rays, etc.).
Although what happens at the singularity is unknown, the information would travel across the throat and exit through the event horizon of the white hole at any point in time in their lives (as the white hole would decay and collapse at the same rate as the black hole, also explained later on). Although the wormhole between the two holes is so unstable, however, it would collapse almost (although not exactly) at the same time as it is formed, less than a trillionth of a second later. This, as I have stated before, follows the belief that black holes follow the same rules of space-time as we do, which they do not.
Because of the distortion of time as matter gets closer and closer to the singularity, at some point in “time” the matter will actually be suspended in time, mainly due to the mass of the infinite mass of the singularity, which bends both space and time. In simpler terms, the closer something gets to the singularity in a black hole, the slower and slower time becomes, until it “stops.” However, because of this same phenomena, it is also means that if a conscious human were dropped into a black hole and could make it close enough to the singularity without being ripped apart, because of the phenomena that “stops” time, the person would also be able to see everything that the black hole has and will ever “see” due to the phenomena in seconds. If you apply that logic to matter that gets absorbed, because of the anomaly, anything that is absorbed by the black hole will actually travel through the wormhole and come out of the other side of the white hole. Now, the white hole would eject matter at the same rate as the black hole even after the link is cut, because it can only eject so much matter at a time but unlike the black hole, the white hole would start out at its biggest point and decay as it ejects its matter and energy.
Also, I would like to state that because the matter is ripped apart and made into its simplest forms after coming close to the singularity, the matter and energy ejected from the white hole are also in the same form as that that traveled through the wormhole. Because of that, the same amount of mass and energy will be expelled, just not in the same form. However, because of the huge volume of mass being forced out through such a relatively small opening, some of the matter will actually collide and form hadrons (protons, electrons, etc.), although there will be no large scale nuclear reaction because there is no chain reaction. The hadrons will then fuse into atoms, although, because the matter was ejected from the white hole traveling faster than light, the rules of the conventional universe will not affect it….. at first.
The matter will actually travel through space-time as a tachyon. This would be because the basic laws of the universe (strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, electromagnetism, and gravitation) would not affect the matter for about a trillionth of a second, then the forces will slowly start to take grasp over it and gradually slow it down until it is slowed down to a “normal” speed. This would be because although no new matter is created or destroyed, it is “reintroduced” to the universe in its simplest form.
This is not to say the matter will travel at the speed of light, but faster than it, just as it is hypothesized to have done shortly after the big bang. Because of the nature of tachyons, however, the matter would diverge from its point in existence, moving both forward in time (infinitely), and back in time (finitely) to its inception (the big bang). To stress it, no new matter would be created/destroyed.
Because of the properties of a black hole, the matter (now just “information,” having no form of existence), would exit the black hole in its simplest state. Again, this means that a space shuttle would not come out as a space shuttle, but as random matter, no longer having any shape or form, which would combine (and in some cases collide) to form hadrons. This would all be similar to reading the data off a cd, the cd keeps the data in binary code, which then translates into images and sounds (in this case: matter), except than in this case, what comes out will not be stored exactly in the form it was, only its simplest composition would be “spit” out the white hole.

Please feel free to ask any questions/make any corrections. I'm pretty sure a lot of it is stated incorrectly or is said in a manner very hard to understand, but it is always easier for me to respond to questions for some reason or another beyond my understanding......