12 replies to this topic

[CommanderJB]

Well, this is a topic which fascinates me rather a lot. Being a military hardware buff (if I do say so myself) and a complete Star Wars nut to boot leaves me wondering quite a bit about the inevitable leap into space, and particularly what will accompany it when our conflicts reach there too. I'd been meaning to start a discussion on this topic for some time, but it was my attendance at the United Nations National Youth Conference that prompted me to actually do something about it.
For more on the conference itself, search for 'I'm baaack' (with 3 'a's) in the General Discussion & Introductions forum, but for the purposes of this thread, it will suffice to know that us 'delegates' each represented a world nation and we debated UN resolutions, documents calling for action on real-world events and current issues, in councils and assemblies. In General Assembly on the last day, all 80-odd delegates came back from morning tea to find a BBC news report lying on our tables detailing a nuclear detonation in French Polynesia. The report said that the warhead had apparently been launched from an ostensibly peaceful United States-owned satellite as a result of a technical malfunction, thus violating arms limitation treaties and multiple international agreements on the peaceful use of outer space in addition to killing over 2000 people and devastating the large island of Hiva Oa in the Marquesas. I couldn't believe my eyes, and when I turned it over and read the resolution on the back I was greatly reassured that they'd just made it up after all.
Then they wheeled out a television and showed us an ostensibly streaming new report from our local ABC (the Australian Broadcasting Commission, that is, not ABC America) newsreader Peter Gee, complete with a radio report from their Pacific correspondent and map display for the event. You could feel the ripple of shock go round the room (it's important to note that the event was said to have occurred that morning and with it being a fully residential conference most of us weren't in a position to immediately phone relatives to find out whether others had heard of it or not). I slowly worked out the little inconsistencies in the story, just small things like the fact that it accidentally said the warhead came from a ballistic missile launched from a missile defence satellite, the way that all guided nuclear weapons have open-ocean coordinates targeted in to prevent exactly this sort of mishap, the way they need multi-level arming codes and all the associated authorisation in order for the warheads to actually become active, and the way everything was set up suspiciously well in order for us all to see it, and was pretty well decided (and desperately hoping) that it was in fact fake when they finally said so - but nonetheless I and almost everyone else there got one hell of a shock, and it made us realise the dangerous potential space weaponry holds.

Ahem, enough on the backstory (more than enough, as I imagine you'll probably agree), and on to the discussion. In my opinion space weaponry is the next logical step for the world's militaries and the second things get hairy in a warfare sort of way we'll see a fleet of new satellites being launched - and, just as likely, a fleet of old ones suddenly revealing some surprising new capabilities. In fact we've already seen orbital weaponry on a frankly frightening scale - just take a look at the Soviet Union's Polyus orbital weapons satellite.

So, the questions I put to you are these: What do you feel are the most likely military utilisations of space? And when (if at all) are we likely to see these coming into action? Will strong international opinion be enough in the end?

[General Kirkov]

The Soviets also had "killer" Satelites which incorporated a small nuclear reactor and a explosives payload that could be directed at sattilites and take them out. Much cheaper and less grand than the Pylus program.

[BeefJeRKy]

I foresee that space warfare will be limited in the near future to Superweapons such as the conceptual Rods from God or such a thing as a launch platform for strategic weapons such as nukes and perhaps rapid insertion of elite special forces through special aircraft that can boost up to the exosphere. I really doubt we'll see "Space Superiority Fighters" like those in Star Wars or Star Trek in both the near and further future.

[The Wandering Jew]

Comrades,

Since we do not have the Gou'ald (yet), the Klendathu Colony (yet), and the Amarr races (yet) invading our terran soil, I honestly believe that the space-based military installations would be that of an anti-ballistic missile nature.

Of course, if we see a culture of bacteria in a Petri dish spelling out the words "Take us to your leader", then that would be the beginning of space-based warfare.

Edit: I do not wish having a "Lacerta Worm Plague" here.

Edited by The Wandering Jew, 21 July 2008 - 04:42.

[Medve]

Indeed, shooting down satellites is a good tactic, also who the hell knows what US and Russian weapons orbit us nowdays. I can't imagine anything else either than strike-capable satellites and insertion teams.

Also I practically LOL-ed at "Energia". It's the exact hungarian version of Energy (and maybe the phonetic Russian)

Medve

[AZZKIKR]

war in space would be boring. no "pew-pew " or "JAGGAGAGAGA" as sound is transmitted by molecules vibrating, and space is vacuum.

[bartpp7]

I like the idea of space weapons what about a space carrier that holds nukes or missles that could be fired from space i rekon that alot better than having them on the ground plus the enermy has to react alot quiker

[markintellect]

bartpp7, on 24 Jul 2008, 6:35, said:

I like the idea of space weapons what about a space carrier that holds nukes or missles that could be fired from space i rekon that alot better than having them on the ground plus the enermy has to react alot quiker

Yes, but what happens when that carrier is hit by space debris and hurtles into a major population zone? Anyway, nukes in space are completely banned and will be for some time.

[Sharpnessism]

Scopejim, on 20 Jul 2008, 15:52, said:

I foresee that space warfare will be limited in the near future to Superweapons such as the conceptual Rods from God or such a thing as a launch platform for strategic weapons such as nukes and perhaps rapid insertion of elite special forces through special aircraft that can boost up to the exosphere. I really doubt we'll see "Space Superiority Fighters" like those in Star Wars or Star Trek in both the near and further future.

Same. What would really be the point of space superiority fighters anyway, there would be weapons to take out satellites from the ground anyway.

Quote

Yes, but what happens when that carrier is hit by space debris and hurtles into a major population zone? Anyway, nukes in space are completely banned and will be for some time.

The nuclear weapons obviously wouldn't be armed. Plus the carrier would probably burn up, if not, the debris would probably be destroyed by a missile or sth.

[CommanderJB]

It's less of a question of whether the nuclear material would detonate (which, as you say, of course it wouldn't) and more of a question of where it would end up anyway. Soviet Kosmos recon satellites used to use small radioisotope thermal generators (RTGs) - these basically just use thermocouples to generate power using the temperature differential between outer space and the warmth generated by a decaying nuclear source - and when one came down wrong in the 80's it showered one third of the globe with radioactive material, most notably Canada. The amounts were of course minuscule but breathing in even only a tiny amount of an alpha-particle emitter can do serious damage to your lungs, so there are real dangers associated with using nuclear energy in space. That's one of the reasons that people are so reluctant to look to space to deal with nuclear waste - what happens if there's a launch accident? - and also why we haven't launched any probes with RTGs so they don't have to rely upon solar cells which have something of a track record of jamming and what have you. This may change soon though, a probe to Jupiter has been proposed with a moderate-scale RTG as the powerplant, and it's designed to give us a really good look at the gas giant and its moons, far more than anything we've ever seen. Whether or not this will get off the ground I don't know.

Anyway, my apologies for the sidetrack. Yes, weapons 'buses' for extremely rapid delivery of nuclear or conventional ordnance onto any point around the globe are the most likely direct military-oriented weapons that I think we'd see. It's basically undetectable; there's no launch plume to be picked up on infra-red, just a small black 3-metre long cone travelling at hypersonic speeds, with just a tiny few flickers of positioning rockets, and you'd cut the time it took for a warhead to hit in half or better, so certainly this sort of surprise delivery capacity would be extremely attractive. And then of course you'd have the anti-satellite vehicles, of which there are already plenty and many more in development, and the anti-anti-satellite (Polyus et al) and so on...

[Sharpnessism]

Doubtful there'll be those kinds of weapons in the future before more countries have the technology as well. No one is going to let 1-2 nations have a bunch of nuclear weapons on satellites aimed at earth unless they had the same capabilities. Even then, I doubt that they'll let people put a bunch of nukes in space.

Quote

It's less of a question of whether the nuclear material would detonate (which, as you say, of course it wouldn't) and more of a question of where it would end up anyway. Soviet Kosmos recon satellites used to use small radioisotope thermal generators (RTGs) - these basically just use thermocouples to generate power using the temperature differential between outer space and the warmth generated by a decaying nuclear source - and when one came down wrong in the 80's it showered one third of the globe with radioactive material, most notably Canada. The amounts were of course minuscule but breathing in even only a tiny amount of an alpha-particle emitter can do serious damage to your lungs, so there are real dangers associated with using nuclear energy in space. That's one of the reasons that people are so reluctant to look to space to deal with nuclear waste - what happens if there's a launch accident? - and also why we haven't launched any probes with RTGs so they don't have to rely upon solar cells which have something of a track record of jamming and what have you. This may change soon though, a probe to Jupiter has been proposed with a moderate-scale RTG as the powerplant, and it's designed to give us a really good look at the gas giant and its moons, far more than anything we've ever seen. Whether or not this will get off the ground I don't know

Learn something new everyday I live in Canada, wonder why they never taught us this :o

[Destiny]

Space warfare would first out with missiles and bullets...but if they miss...for bullets they'll just keep on going to the end of the universe and hit something there, lol.

Nuclear detonations in the atmopshere causes EMP, so the SALT II treaty or something like that...plus it wouldn't be feasible to shoot nukes at satellites, does it? Using Kinetic Kill Vehicles are better...

[CommanderJB]

But lasers are even better than that... most modern military thinking is that kinetic kill vehicles are a last resort because of all the dangerous debris and waste they leave behind. Lasers, on the other hand, can blind and effectively eliminate the threat posed by enemy recon satellites in particular, though they're not so good at dealing with more weaponised threats. Lasers have long been used as anti-satellite weapons; in fact, a Soviet warning laser even fired a warning shot at a mission by the Challenger shuttle in the 1980s in response to America's continuing ASAT tests and military applications of the craft, which caused malfunctions aboard the craft and discomfort (read: temporary blinding) to the crew, so they're very much a part of the equation.

Edited by CommanderJB, 27 July 2008 - 05:16.