14 replies to this topic

[Shirou]

Please take 20 minutes of your time to see this if you haven't already.

http://www.storyofstuff.org/

Some highlights:

Quote of the day: What's the point of an ad beside making us unhappy with what we have?

For every trash can you produce, along the process of making all that trash 70 equal thrash cans have been filled, so if you even manage to recycle your trash 100%, you have 1.3% recycling of the total stuff.

Let's give the government back to the people.

Only 1% of all stuff that people buy still lasts in our posession after 6 months, 99% has already found the trash can.

World is messed up, really.

Edited by Aftershock, 15 August 2008 - 11:29.

[Chyros]

Well to be perfectly honest, though it holds a core of truth, much of it is exaggerated or brought in a somewhat propagandistic manner, not in a scientific one. Notions like "if you're still wearing those fat heels it shows other people you haven't contributed to that arrow [consumerism] enough and that you're less valuable" are an example of this.

Another example is the notion that dioxin is the most toxic chemical EVAR and that it's carelessly used by humans is not mentioning that since the nature of its toxicity has been established, the use of it has been curbed a lot, and currently the amounts used are regulated by governments and put at very low levels. It's also not mentioning that, for example, botulinum toxin is approximately 2000 times more toxic and produced by nature (so we're not even producing that ourselves). It's not like only humanity is producing the badass shit.

Nonetheless the video does hit on a number of important subject such as the vast amounts of waste we produce. I'd say this video is only one side of the story, though.

[Shirou]

What's the other side then?

Sciencific uncertainties are not going to convince people. This is, and while it's exxagerated to a point that it generalises everything to one factory, one shopping mall and one consumer, as long as there are masses of every group still act like this, it is justified.

It's not really fair to attack nature's toxins in defence of our own spread of them, as it is nature and ourselves that we are destroying with it. That's like similar to saying 'hey CO2 greenhouse gases, well nature emits them too so what are we doing wrong??'

And the notion about the heels is, the fact that it's not a scientific explanation doesn't make it less true for me, as when you want to be up with the latest fashion you'll be one hellf of a clothing consumer..

Edited by Aftershock, 15 August 2008 - 15:14.

[Chyros]

Well, as I said, deep down it's mostly true, but the story is obviously not told from a neutral perspective.

Quote

What's the other side then?

The other side is what's being done about it. Trees being planted, fish cultivation developing, research into and the use of alternate energy sources, the research for replacing the toxins the video talks about, none of that is being mentioned. The clip only speaks of the bad things humans are doing, not what the status quo is. For example, it talks of the amount of wood being chopped every day, but not how much is still left after re-planting and the net strain on wood availability after, for example, paper recycling or moving to other materials.

Quote

It's not really fair to attack nature's toxins in defence of our own spread of them, as it is nature and ourselves that we are destroying with it. That's like similar to saying 'hey CO2 greenhouse gases, well nature emits them too so what are we doing wrong??'

And the notion about the heels is, the fact that it's not a scientific explanation doesn't make it less true for me[...]

Maybe not less true but the view is still incomplete. A scientific explanation would be neutral, this is not. If you were to only use this movie to form your image and opinion of this subject, your image and opinion of it would be incomplete because of the omission of other relevant facts. As an example, an analogy: if I were to tell you everything that's bad about me, that doesn't make me a bad person, even if everything I tell you is true. You could only know what kind of person I am if I told you everything about me.

Edited by Chyros, 15 August 2008 - 16:07.

[Z_mann]

Let's turn this into a discussion!

THESIS: Linear consumerism, once established as a complete system, cannot be replaced or halted with any means not involving the destruction of society that sustains it.

Please deploy your (counter) arguments. If we shake this thing up, we might get something interesting...

@ Chyros: Not the truth to you, but it's still truth to him, for he knows no other de facto.

[Shirou]

Well this is apparently another taboo here as that discussion part is obviously not working.

Anything potentially capable of destroying society has always been denied or ignored. It's just the fact that current consumerism is not a circle, it's a straight line from resources to waste. And in one point, all resources will be gone and there will only be waste. What are we going to do then?

[Chyros]

Sorry, I kinda killed this topic didn't I? XD

Aftershock, on 23 Aug 2008, 9:41, said:

And in one point, all resources will be gone and there will only be waste. What are we going to do then?

Find a way of life other than consumerism? :s

[Shirou]

That's the point. You can do that in two ways.

The hard way, finding out everything is gone and be on a big pile of waste with no other way of life.

Or take action and do something about it now to be safe for the future.

[Z_mann]

True, but how would you go about STOPPING consumerism?

[Brad]

we cannot stop it, ony change it and to do this, we need to be aware of what exactly we waste, we need to understand that the world is running out, we need to come to terms with the fact that we are not perfect, but the most flawed of species, we need to understand that to solve the problem, we need to stop Excessive manufacturing, as in:STOP MAKING LOADS OF CRAP, we nned to that to know, we have to learn, as in: to know what it takes to stop this, we need to learn all the facts about the problem.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Chyros, on 15 Aug 2008, 16:04, said:

And the notion about the heels is, the fact that it's not a scientific explanation doesn't make it less true for meMaybe not less true but the view is still incomplete. A scientific explanation would be neutral, this is not. If you were to only use this movie to form your image and opinion of this subject, your image and opinion of it would be incomplete because of the omission of other relevant facts. As an example, an analogy: if I were to tell you everything that's bad about me, that doesn't make me a bad person, even if everything I tell you is true. You could only know what kind of person I am if I told you everything about me.

A scientific explanation would most likey not be neutral, becuase in most cases that would involve lying to make both positions appear equal.

[Chyros]

Dr. Strangelove, on 25 Aug 2008, 9:22, said:

A scientific explanation would most likey not be neutral, becuase in most cases that would involve lying to make both positions appear equal.

If this is your objectivist thing again, whatever . If not, then it's just bullshit. A scientist may not give a scientific explanation, but science is fact and not lies or opinions.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Chyros, on 25 Aug 2008, 11:37, said:

Dr. Strangelove, on 25 Aug 2008, 9:22, said:

A scientific explanation would most likey not be neutral, becuase in most cases that would involve lying to make both positions appear equal.

If this is your objectivist thing again, whatever . If not, then it's just bullshit. A scientist may not give a scientific explanation, but science is fact and not lies or opinions.

My point exactly. Lying to make both sides appear equal when the really aren't is a very unscientific thing to do. And yes, it is my Objectivist thing again.

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 25 August 2008 - 18:17.

[Shirou]

If you don't have anything to add to the subject then please don't respond. You always ignite massive Offtopic discussions...

[The Wandering Jew]

Off-topic: I can't help myself noticing these three fellows.

ROFL! :stickattack2:

@ Topic:
Destructive or not, consumerism shall find any means necessary to sell whatever they are selling.