77 replies to this topic

[Alias]

Now, as the other thread got locked without breaking any rules (some members went overboard, but its far more beneficial to delete/modify these posts than to lock the entire thread in the heat of discussion). If this is locked as well within the first page, I guess my remark about this being a police state is actually true.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

There has been enough Staff bashing here now.

Criticism isn't bashing. If you cannot take criticism then that is a fatal flaw. Some of the posts may have been overboard, but that doesn't warrant a lock, at most it warrants some cleaning. A government without the input of it's citizens makes it seem like it's run like a despotism.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

There are areas of inactivity, granted, but this thread just seems to be attracting attacks with no substantiative input beyond that. It is one thing provide us with your opinions and feedback but some people here feel that they need to air their grievances just for the sake of it.

I'd hardly call it "mostly attacks". The majority (at least 3/4) of the thread is productive, and when it was locked it was still right in the middle of discussion.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

I honestly don't see many members of the populace who spend more time here than some of us. And it is just plain wrong to suggest that we all are not active or that we all don't do anything for the community. Things have now gotten to the stage where several of you are tarnishing everyone with the same brush and I am not going to tolerate that. Let's not forget that without "some" there wouldn't be a community to complain about in the first place.

Operative word: some of you (I really can't think of more than three of you which are more active than the general populace). At least a third of you are inactive, and some others are just not fit for the job. That is a substantial amount. I myself certainly never said you ALL were bad, just some of you.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

CommanderJB was appointed as we felt he'd be a good moderator, for many reasons and there are plenty of good reasons why there are a lot of people we don't think would be good moderators. Just because you have been here a for a while and been a BT or produced something for a mod doesn't mean you would make a good staffer. Community contribution is an asset and not a prerequesite. Do you "deserve" it? If you did you would have it now. Maybe you shouldn't be questioning why others got it and asking yourself why you haven't?? The answer won't be our fault.

So as long as someone can write huge walls of text they are suitable for moderator? My, do times change. I cue Aftershock's post here:

Aftershock, on 30 Aug 2008, 17:59, said:

General activity, time spent on the forums, community contributions and overall popularity, apparently all fall behind the arguments of ''Mature and Quality Posts!". To me, that sounds like the Staff is really forgetting about the other duties of the Staff. They need to be active in most of the forums to be well known by all the different members. They need to be there for the members, they are there with their powers to liven the place up. How long has it been since there was something cool or different done by an admin or staffer which excited a lot of members. Nowadays I consider Comr4de a loner in these areas. The other forum admins have done a lot for the community in the past but that seems a bit dormant now too.

A staffer needs to be an exemplary staff member, but NOT in the way of 'maturity and quality posts'. No, he/she needs to be involved in all things that are needed to guide a forum, not just acting the newly appointed cop.

Sure, CommanderJB is an excellent forum member but if we talk about his fame among members, well there isn't any because he isn't well-known. This is an excellent example of the space that is, inavertently or not, created between the Staff and the Members. CommanderJB serves only to moderate, to cut down spam, to lock topics. What honour is that, what community contribution is that if the community will only get to know him as that uninvolved moderator who locks topics or gives warnings, and furthermore only gets attached to the members he actually shares interests with, which aren't so many as other members with more posts and more forum veterancy.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

Everyone complains about the way this forum is run as though it is a police state, well it isn't. There are enormous amounts of leigh-way given in pretty much everything and one more moderator isn't going to change the that. It enables us to have an extra voice on issues, a helpful pair of hands and a sound mind. Moderation rights allow us to make sure things run smoothly and that nothing gets out of hand. It isn't there for anything else. And yes, that can be for the benefit of the community without making a mod or starting a w00t spam thread that lasts a while.

That wasn't my original point. My original point is that since the older inactive staff are not being replaced with the new blood is causes a huge power struggle, and we end up with half of the staff which are useless. You yourself agreed with me on the count that older, inactive staff should be honourably removed from office.

In closing, please do not post here unless you have something constructive to add. I'm not going to stop you (you have rights as do I), but it would be a great help if you would stay on the sideline.

Edited by Alias, 30 August 2008 - 10:36.

[Wi-Ta]

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:33, said:

The majority (at least 3/4) of the thread is productive, and when it was locked it was still right in the middle of discussion.

In closing, please do not post here unless you have something constructive to add. I'm not going to stop you (you have rights as do I), but it would be a great help if you would stay on the sideline.

I support this.
This is started to make things better not to blame someone.
As i did say before "So do you not think better do now some change and give the mod teams more space and time?"

And one other thing i do not want to be an admin.

best regards
Wi-Ta

[Crazykenny]

wi-ta, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:46, said:

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:33, said:

The majority (at least 3/4) of the thread is productive, and when it was locked it was still right in the middle of discussion.

In closing, please do not post here unless you have something constructive to add. I'm not going to stop you (you have rights as do I), but it would be a great help if you would stay on the sideline.

I support this.
This is started to make things better not to blame someone.
As i did say before "So do you not think better do now some change and give the mod teams more space and time?"

And one other thing i do not want to be an admin.

best regards
Wi-Ta

To reply on your response in the other thread. I think I had more then enough patience with Menace.

[Nem]

Quote

This forum admins also want to have one or the other mod to edit, and then they are still about to take care of a growing community?
It is clear that this might be just to much to ask in future.

1)So the question seems appropriate what can be changed to lay the weight on more shoulders?
2)How can an environment be created that is for all better?
3)If change must be made this has to be well thought out, who does?

Solution: Accepting the fact that staff will never be on the same level as your average joe member and that there will always be conflict between the two groups, a bridge level should be created. Filling the gap between community and administration, a new "community leader" rank would be charged with solving any issues before they got to the public level. They could help the community grow with advertisments, news segments and polling. Tending to the community and expressing their will would be there primary goal, this is why SWR's NergiZed would be a good choice.

Just think we could have are very own "Apoc"

Edited by Nem, 30 August 2008 - 14:29.

[Crazykenny]

Somekinda PR guy?

[Nem]

Crazykenny, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:55, said:

Somekinda PR guy?

And then some. This is a perfect way to solve the crisis without any significant change in administration.

[Crazykenny]

I like the idea in general, I'll remain sceptic though untill I see what others think.

[Whitey]

I'm going to enter this topic with something that really buggered me: Wizard's closing statement. The "You've had your word, We've had ours, KTHXBAI" one.

Am I the only one that found that entirely wrong? Allowing one of the staff members to close a topic after making all of his points, preventing discussion of them. Hrmph. That just feels unfair, especially for a topic that didn't break any rules. This reminds me of the way a child might argue, eventually shouting over the other person and then, before the other person can respond, stomping away.

That's not what I want to see out of the people that run this place.

-Boidy

[Nem]

Everyones aware of the problem now. It's time for solutions.

Edited by Nem, 30 August 2008 - 15:23.

[Ghostrider]

Nem, on 30 Aug 2008, 11:23, said:

Everyones aware of the problem now. It's time for solutions.

Good call Nem.

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 6:33, said:

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:21, said:

There has been enough Staff bashing here now.

Criticism isn't bashing. If you cannot take criticism then that is a fatal flaw. Some of the posts may have been overboard, but that doesn't warrant a lock, at most it warrants some cleaning. A government without the input of it's citizens makes it seem like it's run like a despotism.

Along the same line as Alias, we aren't bashing the staff, Wizard. I think most members know that you and the other staffers have contributed to E-Studios, and we're grateful for it, but we're stating our opinions because it will give you staffers ideas/improvements to work on (that's the whole point of the questions/suggestions thread). Remember: Members can't really change the forums, that's your responsibility, staffers.

Here's one possible solution: for new staffers/mods/admins, simply have a vote for members who have over a certain number of posts. This would
a) Ensure that the majority of the members on E-Studios liked the new staffer, and
b) With a large number of members voting for a person, it is likely that that person has the "qualifications" to be a staffer.
It would also give the members more of a say in what goes on around E-Studios.
Other ideas?

[Hobbesy]

This is exactly what my last post was talking about, Wizard and his childish behavior. He apparently thinks he can lock any thread he finds, regardless of consequence; that of which I find wrong.

[Libains]

POST EDITED

Firstly - an apology to staff/admins who I may have caused personal grievance to - it was not my intention as such to do so, and I regret having posted this post, as it was at a particularly bad time for me to even think about posting generally.

My thoughts on the matter. As such, this has been a hugely over-exaggerated incident as such that initially stemmed from promoting a member to a position of trust within the community. As I see it, any staff response these days could alomost certainly be taken the wrong way, even if you said yes everyone is completely right and we'll do as you guys say. While I disagree slightly with the level of locky usage and the occasional politics issue, which sometimes gets blurred with current affairs, for the most part I've seen first hand what it is to have to take a level of leadership upon yourself, and there are always those that will take issue with such a thing. Of all the people to have promoted to Global Mod I'd have chosen CommanderJB as well as he's a very solid head on good shoulders and should do the community proud, and yet due to a few members venting their anger, all but the entire active community has backlashed against the staff. As such I feel that it be only fair that there be some that stand for the staff because it doesn't seem in the least bit fair that this should have happened, especially not the whole avvy thing, which goes beyond any form of joke. As such, the issue that seems to be being raised more than anything else is that the staff are sometimes not being behaved the way in which the members would like the forums to be run. Well to be perfectly honest, as such, this forums needs a strong hand because of the strong characters that we have here - no offense meant to anybody. As such, this is a time in which the staff have left us to be as we are without their support - the temporary leadership topic has turned to sh*t without a staff member available to prevent rubbish from occurring.

Edited by AjPod, 31 August 2008 - 00:21.

[Dutchygamer]

Ehmm, I think I also have to share my view on this topic:
Alias has made some good points, that's true. I agree with him on most of them. But on the other side I think that not every staff member spends the whole day at this forum; they have a life too, especially now when the holidays are over. This must be taken into consideration too.
I agree with WarMenace on this one: yes, there have been changes, yes some changes where bad, but I still visit this place. And don't come with comments like "you aren't here long enough blablabla" because I'm here for 2 years, even though some of you haven't noticed...
I think the situation is fine as it is. Disagree with me, but that's my opinion
Dutchygamer out!

[retry_1]

you know what i just noticed? no political discussion is allowed on here, but the way it's ran is quite like politics, to get your point heard, or get a position you have to kiss the right asses, type in informative huge chunks of texts with correct capitalization and punctuation. and be willing to be a figurehead.

the rules say no politics, why doesn't this apply to staff?

[Ion Cannon!]

I have no problems with staff decisions in general. But there is another thing which I think is a shame. The staff will sometimes allow posts and topics which are just useless and often idiotic yet anything with a whiff of politics gets locked. I really think a politics forum could kick start the community. I know for sure that there are decent members who would participate in intelligent discussion but I am also aware of the idiots / patriots who don't seem to be able to take any criticism ect ect. Instead of punishing the entire community, why not punish the idiots? There are people here who can have an intelligent political discussion about many issues without resorting to YM insults. So instead of stifling debate, why not just stifle idiocy and ignorance? Instead of locking a thread, give the poster that posted the flame / insult a verbal warning, if they do it again a warn increase ect. And if they don't heed the warning well, thats their own fault isn't it?

[WarMenace]

Crazykenny, on 30 Aug 2008, 6:55, said:

wi-ta, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:46, said:

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:33, said:

The majority (at least 3/4) of the thread is productive, and when it was locked it was still right in the middle of discussion.

In closing, please do not post here unless you have something constructive to add. I'm not going to stop you (you have rights as do I), but it would be a great help if you would stay on the sideline.

I support this.
This is started to make things better not to blame someone.
As i did say before "So do you not think better do now some change and give the mod teams more space and time?"

And one other thing i do not want to be an admin.

best regards
Wi-Ta

To reply on your response in the other thread. I think I had more then enough patience with Menace.

This is where I speak, I never wanted to post in here, but you open your big mouth and telling people I have no right to talk. You obviously don't know me, and I have been around more than you know. So how's about before you talk about someone, you get to know them first? I have tolerated you long enough, tried to be your friend, but sadly that's not happening. So stop being a stereotypical fool, and start acting your age.

That's it, that's all I'll say, I'll post again if necessary, as to everyone else here that knows me, they'll know what I'm actually saying.

[Dr. Knickers]

Politics...

What irks me is that when I posted a politically oriented picture in the Funny Image Dump!, it was deleted for politics. Yet when you look at the previous pages, there were other political pictures posted which leads me to believe that the image was deleted because the staffer supported Barrack Obama. Don't get me wrong, he's a good guy, but I just happened to think it was a humorous image and posted it.

Is that going to be a problem here? You have be a democrat to participate in politics and political discussions?

Edited for clarity.

Edited by Dr. Nick, 30 August 2008 - 16:40.

[Nem]

The staff has admitted there is a problem, what more do you want? Nothing good can come from further pointing out there flaws. We need solutions.

[Ghostrider]

Nem, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:38, said:

The staff has admitted there is a problem, what more do you want? Nothing good can come from further pointing out there flaws. We need solutions.

Aye, don't just state problems, state how you can solve them. PROTIP: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
As for the inactive staffers, I would LOVE to see them start to take more action, but if they're not up to it/can't do it, perhaps a change in the team is necessary (with an honorable retirement of course). I also still stand by my method of getting new staffers when they're needed:

Ghostrider, on 30 Aug 2008, 11:36, said:

Here's one possible solution: for new staffers/mods/admins, simply have a vote for members who have over a certain number of posts. This would
a) Ensure that the majority of the members on E-Studios liked the new staffer, and
b) With a large number of members voting for a person, it is likely that that person has the "qualifications" to be a staffer.
It would also give the members more of a say in what goes on around E-Studios.
Other ideas?

[Whitey]

Actually, it is quite clear that the presence of a problem has NOT been made evident to everybody.

-Boidy

[nip]

Happy go locky

Quote

Locky allow us to make sure things run smoothly and that nothing gets out of hand. It isn't there for anything else. Fixed!

For the 2 years being here now I'm noticing a rising lack of moderation. The most executed 'moderating' task on ES now seem to be locky, locky for the sake of silence. I'm not talking about suggestion threads but more the topics that tend to become a flame fest or going off topic and then getting locked with often flimsy excuses like the last and fresh locked 'Status Of The Leadership'-topic. It makes a moderator's life comfortable when there is no need for moderation, simply close a derailed thread or close a whole forum, therefore the dead of the political forum for example, a forum that was closed under the pretext of periodic flame wars. In fact it was closed by either unwillingness, incapability or just laziness to moderate such a forum. Please save me your empty talk about politics has nothing to do with modding etc.; so does philosophers corner, SYD and others here on ES. One more thing on the staff-issue, when thin-skinned staff is calling simple criticism an attack on them or threads got locked by staff without any real reason behind, then perhaps it is time to consider a step down to get oneself out of the line of fire and make place for someone capable of moderating a forum.

[Alias]

I'm glad to see this thread has pursued more sensible discussion, and I'm grateful for those others offering support (especially you, Nip). Kenny and Warmenace: keep this to PM or MSN, I don't want this thread to be tarnished like the older one.

Thankyou.

Edited by Alias, 30 August 2008 - 17:49.

[Lizzie]

Quote

There are areas of inactivity, granted, but this thread just seems to be attracting attacks with no substantiative input beyond that. It is one thing provide us with your opinions and feedback but some people here feel that they need to air their grievances just for the sake of it.

So we are not allowed to air our Grievances and are to stay in silence? So we are not allowed to talk about our problems with the staff but only members? You're not special. If I got a problem with you, I'm going to damn well speak out about it. Which leads to a aforementioned issue. Some of the staff act like their in the lack of a better term, gods compared to us. Frankly I'm sick of it.

Furthermore that thread didn't need to be locked. Just pruned. You obviously had no intention of letting it go anywhere did you? If you don't want us bringing up grievances then maybe you shouldn't create them, like you just did.

Edit: Edited for argument add.

Edited by Lizzie, 30 August 2008 - 18:11.

[WarMenace]

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:48, said:

I'm glad to see this thread has pursued more sensible discussion, and I'm grateful for those others offering support (especially you, Nip). Kenny and Warmenace: keep this to PM or MSN, I don't want this thread to be tarnished like the older one.

Thankyou.

I find it quite nice that this thread is actually going smoothly, aside from my idea to keep things the way they were, these are also pretty good ideas, and I agree with some of them. But like it or not, the admins have control, so it's up to them to decide whose idea is better. No more arguing.

[Lizzie]

WarMenace92, on 30 Aug 2008, 14:03, said:

No more arguing.

Nothing but just yes-man'ing is unhealthy for a forum. Furthermore there's a difference between arguing and flaming and only flaming is against the rules.

Another issue with the staff here is some of them don't want to compromise. At all. Too many times have I seen the general response of "Put up with it or take a hike". Not just from staff either but members too. If you want a healthy member/staff relationship you have to compromise rather then just act like you have infinite wisdom and everyone else is wrong.

Edited by Lizzie, 30 August 2008 - 18:18.