The Georgia Mess
#1
Posted 30 August 2008 - 15:45
1. This thread is not intended to offend anyone, so no biased posts.
2. This will probably be closed here soon anyway, considering it does deal with politics, but try to keep personal political beleifs out.
3. Don't put anyone down because of where they live, or what they think.
#2
Posted 30 August 2008 - 15:53
Anyways, the only thing I think is that no Western country should get involved into this, nor send 'support' (help with some weapons, yeah right ) to Georgia. This ain't as easy as Afganisthan or Irag, this is Russia you're talking about...
Just my 2 cents...
#3
Posted 30 August 2008 - 15:53
#4
Posted 30 August 2008 - 15:59
Edited by Suvorov, 30 August 2008 - 16:02.
#5
Posted 30 August 2008 - 16:48
Quote
Anyways, the only thing I think is that no Western country should get involved into this, nor send 'support' (help with some weapons, yeah right rolleyes.gif) to Georgia. This ain't as easy as Afganisthan or Irag, this is Russia you're talking about...
Just my 2 cents...
Why would they? It's not like Georgia can take back the land from Russia without direct support. The people of South Ossetia don't want to be part of Georgia, anyone who might of been neutral was probably shifted over to pro-Russia after the decimation of the capital city.
Also if you didn't want this locked you probably shouldn't have compared it to the USSR or Nazi Germany. Or state sth about the cold war.
Edited by Sharpnessism, 30 August 2008 - 16:52.
#6
Posted 30 August 2008 - 16:52
#7
Posted 30 August 2008 - 17:17
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 12:52, said:
If a bigger kid and a few small kids were playing with toys and the bigger kid grabs a few toys, you wouldn't compare that to the annexation of XYZ countries. It isn't a good comparison and it makes people think you just want to flame the actions of the bigger kid.
#8
Posted 30 August 2008 - 19:27
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
Sanctify the early light just like the old man can, boy!
Change the world? You'd better change yourself, man/ boy/ man
Challenge the mind to be more like the rolling ocean, man!
#9
Posted 30 August 2008 - 19:46
~Doomsday~, on 30 Aug 2008, 15:27, said:
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
If S. Ossetia isn't going to argue against a Russian occupation of their territory for protection, I suspect Russia will indeed stay.
:o
Edited by Sharpnessism, 30 August 2008 - 21:14.
#10
Posted 31 August 2008 - 04:19
Please tell me if i have it all right or wrong.
Anyways, this mmight get a bit political, the last thread about this in teh general discussions got locked for that. The way I see it is that if the citizens of SOuth Ossetia want to join Russia, then they should be able to. If the UN causes too much pressure on Russia to back out, then the citizens in South Ossetia are not going to be liked by the Georgian government......
This reminds me, the only reason taht we have situations like iraq (for the US gulf war II) and afghanistan (for russia) is because with the UN and pressure from countries to not invade other countries, they cannot kill civilians willingly. In WWII, if Germany took over a part of france that had lots of rebels (well, people that would form militias and fight back), then Germany would just bomb the shit out of some of them and the rest would probably settle down. Now we are forced to fight insurgents on their own terms, as if we were to start carpet bombing parts of iraq just to put down insurgents, UN would kill us.
#11
Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:03
Sharpnessism, on 30 Aug 2008, 13:46, said:
:o
I guess. :O
But do you think they actually need to? Georgia's military is pretty much gone, and the entire region is small; it wouldn't take long for Russia to respond to someone threatening S. Ossetia (if anyone is stupid enough to try again)>_<
Eddy01741, on 30 Aug 2008, 22:19, said:
Please tell me if i have it all right or wrong.
You are partially right; N. Ossetia is part of Russia and has been for awhile, but that is not what Georgia attacked. S. Ossetia is a region of Georgia; they were the ones that got attacked by Georgia, apparently in response to S.O. separatist artillery attacks (they claim).
Edited by ~Doomsday~, 31 August 2008 - 06:12.
Sanctify the early light just like the old man can, boy!
Change the world? You'd better change yourself, man/ boy/ man
Challenge the mind to be more like the rolling ocean, man!
#12
Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:06
Eddy01741, on 31 Aug 2008, 0:19, said:
Killing everyone is a lot easier than picking out 1 terrorist from 10 civilians and trying to avoid killing the civilians. Carpetbombing parts of Iraq probably wouldn't solve much. I mean, it'd kill the insurgents but there are always other countries and they are entirely replaceable so it isn't feasible. Back then it was a World War, which meant that if you carpet bombed everywhere, the allies of the country were already at war with you. Plus the enemy would do the same to you if they didn't already.
#13
Posted 31 August 2008 - 13:27
~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.
Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan
#14
Posted 31 August 2008 - 15:56
Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:
~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.
Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan
Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.
The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had pervious plans.
#15
Posted 31 August 2008 - 16:40
#16
Posted 31 August 2008 - 16:59
Sharpnessism, on 31 Aug 2008, 23:56, said:
Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:
~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.
Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan
Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.
The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had previous plans.
A few shells are not 'leveling a city', I have sources indicating anything from a few dozen shells to near a thousand. Even if it is, it still does not warrant foreign aggression, since even if the city was leveled, it would still be an internal affairs issue of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia knew Russia was looking into that region for a long time, it was due to rebels in S. Ossetia 'somehow' managing to acquire artillery to shell Georgia proper around S. Ossetia that Georgia sent tanks into the capital city of S. Ossetia, which somehow turned into a Russian affair, which it should not have been.
Even if the civilian death rate was close to a thousand, it still won't be as horrible as say, Darfur.
#17
Posted 31 August 2008 - 17:21
Dauth, on 31 Aug 2008, 17:40, said:
Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 17:59, said:
Sharpnessism, on 31 Aug 2008, 23:56, said:
Razven, on 31 Aug 2008, 9:27, said:
~Doomsday~, on 31 Aug 2008, 3:27, said:
Suvorov, on 30 Aug 2008, 10:52, said:
They aren't targeting resources in the first place. They are there to protect the Russian population in the region (keep in mind that 90% of the civilians in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, holding Russian passports). The whole mess started when the Georgian military attacked S. Ossetia, killing many civilians and Russian peacekeepers. S. Ossetia *asked* Russia to intervene.
Furthermore, Russia has announced that they officially recognize the independence of both states. They aren't there to stay.
What you have said is slightly political, as it seems like you would like to have the blame to sit squarely on Georgia, while as some of the posts above me have indicated that the Georgian military was only responding to a rebel-attack in S. Ossetia, which according to the rest of the world (sans Russia), is still Georgian territory. I personally suspect that this invasion has been planned all along by the Russian government due to their extremely quick reaction and mobilization time. I wouldn't be surprised if all the separatists in Georgia right now have been granted Russian passports and the artillery attack before were funded or given by the Russian government covertly.
Frankly, the whole thing scares me, first small ex-Soviet Nations, then they'd be looking at the Ukraine again, they're already trying to isolate the small Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan
Responding to a rebel attack? Response was to destroy the capital city, I highly doubt they were responding to a mere rebel attack.
The Georgians knew Russia wanted that territory. They panicked and shelled the capital city until it was leveled, Russia may have wanted it the whole time but it doesn't excuse Georgia's reaction and it did warrant Russia's attention whether or not they had previous plans.
A few shells are not 'leveling a city', I have sources indicating anything from a few dozen shells to near a thousand. Even if it is, it still does not warrant foreign aggression, since even if the city was leveled, it would still be an internal affairs issue of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia knew Russia was looking into that region for a long time, it was due to rebels in S. Ossetia 'somehow' managing to acquire artillery to shell Georgia proper around S. Ossetia that Georgia sent tanks into the capital city of S. Ossetia, which somehow turned into a Russian affair, which it should not have been.
Even if the civilian death rate was close to a thousand, it still won't be as horrible as say, Darfur.
*Sigh*
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