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The United States Missile Defence Shield in Eastern Europe


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#1 CommanderJB

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:46

I had intended to post this topic a long way back but I've only just now got round to being bothered to do so, mostly because RL went insane. However, this more than any other political topic has intrigued me of late.
As most of you will know, the USA is determined to set up a missile defence system in Eastern Europe, basing interceptor missiles in Poland and radars in the Czech Republic. Overtures have also been made to Ukraine, and plans for an extra array of radars in the Caucasus were typically assumed to revolve around Georgia. This handy BBC image should make the plans clear:
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Now, these missiles are supposedly in place to defend Europe and the United States against ballistic missile attacks from 'rogue states' with very particular emphasis on Iran. The US has stated repeatedly (pretty much every single time the topic has come up for discussion in fact) that the system is not in any way, shape or form aimed at Russia. This is curious to say the least. Iran's current longest-ranged missile is the Shahab-III, with a range of about 2000km - roughly enough to hit Turkey. Even the most liberal estimate of three thousand kilometres takes it just barely over the Polish border.
Washington is almost ten thousand kilometres away.
Now, while it's true that the Iranian military represents something of an unknown quantity, does the US really have anything to fear from Iranian missiles? Given that they'd have to quintuple their missile range, probably not I'd say. Does Europe? Barely - and why would Iran target missiles at Europe in the first place? Seriously, what possible reason could there be? About the only target of interest to Iran at any significant distance is Israel - which already has its own (short-ranged) ballistic missile interceptors, and has had them since the 1980s. North Korea? Their missiles go in the opposite direction, which is why the US has established the ballistic missile defence site at Fort Greeley in Alaska, which can cover most of the trajectories. Poland certainly isn't on the map for such a situation.
But let's assume for a minute that there is a credible ballistic missile threat that this system is designed to defeat. The system comprises a whopping ten interceptor missiles and two radar stations. This is barely enough to defend against a single modern missile - it would certainly have trouble dealing with multiple warheads such as those said to be on Iran's latest missiles (and virtually all other ICBMs, most IRBMs and some SRBMs). And of course anyone who knows the first thing about nuclear doctrine knows missiles are never launched alone. On the other hand those long range radars would be great for keeping an eye on air activity over eastern Europe and missile experts agree that the interceptors are basically IRBMs on steroids with kinetic kill vehicles - which could be refitted to be nuclear warheads with minimal effort. I don't expect the US to do this but nevertheless the possibility exists. What's more, the system doesn't just stop at the interceptors; the US has already sent PAC-3 Patriot batteries to Poland in preparation for their arrival (these are also ABM-capable, but also serve a handy anti-aircraft role) and have discussed options about basing aircraft and other forces there for the defence of the missiles. This is far more than a couple of silos, and everyone knows it.
So what's the problem? Certainly, as America itself has repeatedly acknowledged - indeed said openly at most junctures in an effort to further calm Russia - the system is completely and utterly useless for defending against a Russian missile attack, which would utilise the state-of-the-art Topol-M and RS-24 MIRVed missiles which are claimed to defeat any current or projected BMD system with stealth characteristics, dummy warheads and jamming devices. From this point of view Russia has nothing to fear at all.
The issue revolves around geopolitics. From the outset, George W. Bush said he would pursue the shield at the expense of good US-Russian relations. For such a patently useless system, what's the point? Not only that but Russia made an offer to share usage of a radar site in Azerbaijan with the US instead, which would be rather more useful for the stated goal of keeping tabs on Iran. This offer was flatly refused - which was interesting given Russia's vast array of existing radars and its Moscow ABM sites which are, though currently badly run-down and in need of serious upgrading - just the ticket for a US cooperation project really - perfectly positioned to intercept any missile threat to Eastern Europe:
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To be fair the US also made an offer to share data from the radar sites with Russia, which Russia rejected, saying it couldn't understand what the system was doing in Eastern Europe and had no particular desire to see it there. In fact Russia has been constantly angered by the European system, mostly because it sees the whole project as nothing more than an extraordinarily expensive (BMD is absolutely notorious for costing astronomical sums of cash for little appreciable result; nearly all long-range ABM systems to date, and many short range ones, have fallen under the axe of a budgetary shortfall, and with the effectively imminent global recession it'll be interesting to see how they justify this one to Congress) guise to insert US control into Eastern Europe, its traditional backyard. They have taken steps to counter the system's deployment, most recently by positioning a regiment of their most modern SRBMs, the Iskander system (with a 300km range, though upon the lifting of START or SALT treaties this is generally agreed to be easily extended), in the Kaliningrad region, about as close to Poland as you can get without leaving Russia. Much the same thing happened in Georgia - and we saw what happened there (and no, you can't discuss Georgia here). While this is in my opinion not a terribly bad thing - if these states want to forge ties with the US they're welcome to; though Russia might not agree it's really none of their business - what is a terribly bad thing is the way the US has gone about doing it. There has been huge public opposition to the basing of the system in the Czech Republic in particular, and on the whole the use of a vehicle such as this, guaranteed to upset Russia, to extend influence shows to me at least a shocking disregard for regional stability and to an extend the wishes of the countries involved. For a country which heaps vitriol on Russian foreign policy at most opportunities this is not exactly a shining example of setting a leading alternative (which Russia, of course, has been quick to point out in its usual blunt fashion wherever possible).
Barack Obama has also confirmed he will proceed with the construction of the system.
Further reading: Google is your best friend, but this article from the BBC (from which the above two graphics were taken) gives an excellent insight into the basics of the program, while this editorial from the Russian Information Agency Novosti outlines the Russian position very clearly.
Now, can anyone give me a good reason why the US needs a missile shield in Eastern Europe? I'd be very interested to see your thoughts on this. Very interested indeed.

Edited by CommanderJB, 10 November 2008 - 12:57.

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#2 Dutchygamer

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:15

The US want a missile defence system to defend themselves from missiles from some Arab countries (no, not mentioning names here). I dunno if it will also defend Europe, but AFAIK it's only to defend the US...
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#3 CommanderJB

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:26

The system is optimally placed to intercept long-range trajectories headed for the US mainland, or so I am led to believe (frankly it seems too far north even for that, but I do recall reading that). It will provide significant defence over Eastern Europe, but I don't believe the system is there for that reason; given it's an entirely US funded, built and operated system (they've also said the project will go ahead regardless of any European missile shields which have been suggested by various NATO members) incidental 'protection' of Europe is realistically a (helpfully politically advantageous) side-effect.

Edited by CommanderJB, 10 November 2008 - 13:28.

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#4 Soul

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:44

The defences in Eastern Europe are said to deal with treats from rouge nations, namely Middle Eastern countries from what I gather and yet they are placed near Russia instead of near those countries.
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 Insomniac!, on 16 Sep 2008, 20:12, said:

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#5 CommanderJB

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 13:49

Did you, um, read the first post? I suppose I can't entirely blame you for not doing so if that's the case but it seems that I've now had elements of it stated back to me twice. I was kind of hoping for whether you thought the US was doing the right thing or not.

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#6 Rich19

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 16:47

I believe there was an uproar recently when Russia stated that it had added those sites to some target lists, pretargeting missiles at them. I can't see why really, as you can't expect to park anti-missile facilities on Russia's doorstep without some sort of reprocussions. As far as I know, the majority of Poles don't want the system. I agree with them - pointless waste of money if you ask me, and potentially dangerous to the stability of the region if another Georgia happens.

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 17:16

don't we already have anti-missle systems in turkey where are nukes use to be

#8 NanSolo

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 18:04

The words 'Cuban Missile Crisis' flash to mind. Please, surely somebody in the US government/military has heard about it?

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#9 Shirou

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 18:24

The US flatly refusing usage of the Russian Interceptor system, and then placing a vastly useless, super expensive own system in Poland, near Russia's doorstep. Is pretty weird.

I also would like to know why it needs to be there, why not in Turkey, if there aren't already a missile interceptor system there.

Anyway, what I get from this is the total carelessness of the US in the war on terror, apparently that they don't care for what Russia wants but they do care to know what Russia is doing, as the apparent air surveillance capabilities of this system are of course very useful to monitor Russian rearmament.

I can also understand why Russia doesn't agree to it when they can see what happens on those radars too. They don't gain anything from that. They have their own radars and all they can see is the USA seeing their Military Exercises and whatever airtravel they rather not have spied.

What would the US do if Russia placed a Radar System on Cuba....
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#10 Dr. Strangelove

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 19:06

Even though I'm all in favor of any sort of expansion of US power abroad, the whole idea of an ABM system seems rather pointless to me if it can't significantly reduce the Russian nuclear threat.
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#11 Rayburn

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 10:16

This, gentlemen, is one of the reasons why the EU fails; Poland and the Czech Republic can make this deal with the US that sure as hell would piss off Russia and the EU, despite Pl. and Cz. being members, can't do anything about it. Funny though, IF Russia were to take military action in this crisis, all of Europe/NATO would be forced to help Poland although their leaders were the ones who agreed to this rubbish in the first place. Sorry for being harsh but this is just horrible. It's basically the first step to splitting the EU into East and West and I hate to say that I'm inclided to believe that this was the real, covert purpose of this missile defence in the first place as it keeps the EU from getting united i.e. more powerful. On the other hand, I really don't like the way the EU works. Who knows, maybe a split into a "West European Union" and an "East European Union" would be better for at least one of them...

Edited by Rayburn, 12 November 2008 - 10:26.


#12 BeefJeRKy

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 22:24

NATO and EU seem to run along different pages. I don't think NATO should even need to exist anymore. There is no more "large" threat to the states. Seriously, I doubt Russia would ever attack the States and China's economy is still heavily reliant on the US as well. Iran? Their intended target is quite obvious. They constantly threaten Israel directly and indirectly through Hezbollah and Hamas. They don't exactly have the capability to attack the states. I don't really see the point of such a complex missile shield. If the Russians already have a system set up, why wouldn't they use it to protect against any attack by Iran for example?
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#13 AZZKIKR

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 00:42

Based on what i have read, the azerbaijan radar would prove ineffective as Iran could do something like "radar-jam" the system due to the fact that azerbaijan and iran are relatively close. however, iran could only be able to launch a missile that could strike the USA in probably 5 years. and if iran does launch a missile to hit the us, as it passes by europe, either the russian fed. would shoot it down as a precaution, or the missile shield in turkey.

Russia fears the missile shield due to cash. if the czech republic and poland manage to acquire the missile shields, other countries might follow suit. this would make russia's nuclear arsenal useless as a deterrant, and with many missilde defences, less countries would by nuclear missiles from the russian federation, from which the export of weapons makes up a very large percentage of russia's economy
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#14 Dr. Strangelove

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 01:18

View PostAZZKIKR, on 19 Nov 2008, 0:42, said:

Based on what i have read, the azerbaijan radar would prove ineffective as Iran could do something like "radar-jam" the system due to the fact that azerbaijan and iran are relatively close. however, iran could only be able to launch a missile that could strike the USA in probably 5 years. and if iran does launch a missile to hit the us, as it passes by europe, either the russian fed. would shoot it down as a precaution, or the missile shield in turkey.

Russia fears the missile shield due to cash. if the czech republic and poland manage to acquire the missile shields, other countries might follow suit. this would make russia's nuclear arsenal useless as a deterrant, and with many missilde defences, less countries would by nuclear missiles from the russian federation, from which the export of weapons makes up a very large percentage of russia's economy


Nobody other than the US can build a missile shield that would render Russia's arsenal obsolete, and even then it would be incredibly expensive.
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#15 AZZKIKR

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 02:01

what i meant was other countries might host US defence shields
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#16 EX-P.F.C. Wintergreen

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 02:13

As an American here, I might seem a bit bias but I don't understand why Russia is so upset. The system is too close to Russia to have any really effect on Russian missiles. I watched a flash thing on BBC to watch what the shield would do and it seems like it would be incapable of defending Eastern Europe from Russia if Russia really wanted to do anything and lets be honest, how hard would it be for Russia to knock out a couple radar sites if war was really a factor.

It seems to me the Russia is just trying to flex its muscles as it regains strength.

And about protecting only the US....you're probably right and I'm actually unhappy with it all because of the recession and the HUGE budget deficit that we've racked up recently...

Our national debt is higher than that of our GDP...thanks for the money China :'(
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#17 Chyros

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:01

View PostThe Basilisk, on 19 Nov 2008, 4:13, said:

As an American here, I might seem a bit bias but I don't understand why Russia is so upset. The system is too close to Russia to have any really effect on Russian missiles. I watched a flash thing on BBC to watch what the shield would do and it seems like it would be incapable of defending Eastern Europe from Russia if Russia really wanted to do anything and lets be honest, how hard would it be for Russia to knock out a couple radar sites if war was really a factor.
If it's so useless, why build it? I really understand Russia's fear in this matter actually, especially with the US constantly at war.
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#18 CommanderJB

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:35

View PostAZZKIKR, on 19 Nov 2008, 11:42, said:

Based on what i have read, the azerbaijan radar would prove ineffective as Iran could do something like "radar-jam" the system due to the fact that azerbaijan and iran are relatively close. however, iran could only be able to launch a missile that could strike the USA in probably 5 years. and if iran does launch a missile to hit the us, as it passes by europe, either the russian fed. would shoot it down as a precaution, or the missile shield in turkey.
You can't jam a massive ballistic missile search radar. The only way to do that is put jammers on the warhead, which then makes you able to track it through ESM. The Azerbaijan radar provides far better early warning than the Czech one. Not to mention Russia was considering sharing radar data from its other sites as well. Russia's current ABM systems are unable to intercept warheads headed for the continental US; their sphere of protection is limited effectively to Moscow and a hundred kilometres around it. There's no reason why they couldn't deploy their proven technology elsewhere though if given an incentive to do so. It'd sure as hell be orders of magnitude cheaper than the US effort. A missile base in Kaliningrad would provide just as good interception ability for Iranian ICBMs - and certainly couldn't even be remotely perceived as a threat to the US. The same cannot be said for the Polish solution.

View PostAZZKIKR, on 19 Nov 2008, 11:42, said:

Russia fears the missile shield due to cash. if the czech republic and poland manage to acquire the missile shields, other countries might follow suit. this would make russia's nuclear arsenal useless as a deterrant, and with many missilde defences, less countries would by nuclear missiles from the russian federation, from which the export of weapons makes up a very large percentage of russia's economy
My apologies but this reasoning is completely flawed. No-one buys nuclear missiles from Russia. In fact the only ballistic missile Russia exports is the Iskander, which as a SRBM with high-G mid-course manoeuvres and a low trajectory is not vulnerable to such a system. Russia's worried about the system because it represents the US inserting its influence directly into their backyard. And as I said, this is not just a missile silo or two - it's ten interceptors, a state-of-the-art radar, ground defence troops, a PAC-3 Patriot battery with over a hundred men costing billions on its own, and possibly later air forces as well. It sets a precedent for the US messing around with what Russia sees as effectively domestic issues, as well as putting a power base closer to their borders than they've ever done before. It's got nothing to do with their arms exports.

Another thing I should probably mention is that the shield is completely useless for defending even Europe. The name of the program is GMD - Ground-Based Mid-Course Defence. The kill vehicles are 'hittiles' but they're actually more like satellites than missiles - completely un-aerodynamic, they can only perform an intercept far above the Earth, and before a missile has separated its warhead, meaning that any trajectory which puts the missile even right onto the site itself is unable to be intercepted by the system. It can do only one thing, take down a missile cruising past straight overhead for America, and they haven't even proven they can do that. As two-stage weapons they provide very limited lateral coverage as well - unlike the three-stage missiles in Alaska they certainly can't go far enough to intercept a missile even bound for London. So much for progress.

View PostThe Basilisk, on 19 Nov 2008, 13:13, said:

As an American here, I might seem a bit bias but I don't understand why Russia is so upset. The system is too close to Russia to have any really effect on Russian missiles. I watched a flash thing on BBC to watch what the shield would do and it seems like it would be incapable of defending Eastern Europe from Russia if Russia really wanted to do anything and lets be honest, how hard would it be for Russia to knock out a couple radar sites if war was really a factor.
Not hard in the slightest, as both Russia and America have said on multiple occasions (and as I said in my first post). Russia is upset for the reasons I already outlined. That said I have no real objection to the US inserting control into Eastern Europe so long as it is wanted - and by the people concerned it is not wanted, though their governments are trying to get it because it'll make them allies with the US, which everyone wants - I have an objection to them doing it in such a useless, expensive, blatantly, counter-productively inflammatory way.

View PostThe Basilisk, on 19 Nov 2008, 13:13, said:

It seems to me the Russia is just trying to flex its muscles as it regains strength.
They are. And I can't say as I see a problem with that.

Edited by CommanderJB, 19 November 2008 - 07:45.

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#19 EX-P.F.C. Wintergreen

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 21:31

Agreed. I don't like the idea of the US spending millions of dollars on a missile shield that ruins relations with a country who could be a huge asset to them. Russia is feeling pressured because Eastern Europe has historically been their sphere of influence. Its another reason they were so upset with the US missiles in Turkey during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1961 (I think 61...). Anyway, my point is that I'm tired of this old idea of "who has the biggest gun and biggest balls" to be a judgement of foreign policy between the US and Russia. The Cold War is over (technically), lets be friends!


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