37 replies to this topic

[Overdose]

So I was at this restaurant today and there was a lady sitting on the table next to me. I'm in the middle of my meal and suddenly she wants to start a conversation. Considering I hate talking when I'm eating and the woman wasn't attractive I just pretended that I was listening to her while I tried to finish my meal as fast as I could so I didn't have to listen to her blabber. A few minutes later she asked if I "believed in god" and to which church I go to. My meal was practically ruined.

So I wiped my lips with the napkin and said that "I can't believe in something I can't prove it exists. So no I don't believe in any god because I can't prove its existence and that same thing is questionable in the first place." She looked at me like I had some contagious disease and asked why. Then I proceeded to lecture her on how humans are not capable of proving the existence of god and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. That is even if such a being exists in the first place.

Then I started to explain how religion is flawed because religion is the work of Man and not god and how it is used to twist and remodel a person's very important self values and ideals in a process called 'conditioning'. I also explained to her how they use the principle of belief and how it goes hand to hand with faith. This tool makes a person ignore his or her own instincts and conscience by branding it as fear and how this fear denies faith because of this 'slip' of beliefs.

Then I proceeded to the checkmate. I told her "Even with the small possibility of god existing why would you worship a being that doesn't care in the slightest about the world and with you? A being that does not prove his existence something that every other being in this world strives to prove. Blaming what happens of bad in the 'devil' and crediting what happens of good to 'god' when this is just an escape and why bother crediting something when this being could take credit for himself?"

That was when I finally managed to break through that poorly built fortress in her mind. She said she would consider what I had said and that she was sorry for interrupting my meal. I bid her goodbye hoping that we would never meet again and then I went to the desert section to catch myself some flan.

So yes I apologize for this little story but I had to explain why I brought up this question. She felt compelled to tell her beliefs out of the blue and I felt forced to confront her and stand my ground on my own. This applies to other things as well, not just religion.

[markintellect]

Absolutely correct, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dauth]

Warning the below post may contain content you may not normally associate with Dauth.

People are compelled to spread the word as a result of 2 interpretations of the same thing.

They genuinely believe that they are bringing hope and joy to the world and that their religion is the greatest source of happiness in their lives.
Or, they have been conditioned to think this and while they do not understand the conditioning as a process they commit it unwittingly with every person converted.

OD, I find eating dull and an argument about religion would be immensely more entertaining.

[Whitey]

Overdose, on 22 Jan 2009, 15:18, said:

So I was at this restaurant today and there was a lady sitting on the table next to me. I'm in the middle of my meal and suddenly she wants to start a conversation. Considering I hate talking when I'm eating and the woman wasn't attractive I just pretended that I was listening to her while I tried to finish my meal as fast as I could so I didn't have to listen to her blabber. A few minutes later she asked if I "believed in god" and to which church I go to. My meal was practically ruined.

So I wiped my lips with the napkin and said that "I can't believe in something I can't prove it exists. So no I don't believe in any god because I can't prove its existence and that same thing is questionable in the first place." She looked at me like I had some contagious disease and asked why. Then I proceeded to lecture her on how humans are not capable of proving the existence of god and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. That is even if such a being exists in the first place.

Then I started to explain how religion is flawed because religion is the work of Man and not god and how it is used to twist and remodel a person's very important self values and ideals in a process called 'conditioning'. I also explained to her how they use the principle of belief and how it goes hand to hand with faith. This tool makes a person ignore his or her own instincts and conscience by branding it as fear and how this fear denies faith because of this 'slip' of beliefs.

Then I proceeded to the checkmate. I told her "Even with the small possibility of god existing why would you worship a being that doesn't care in the slightest about the world and with you? A being that does not prove his existence something that every other being in this world strives to prove. Blaming what happens of bad in the 'devil' and crediting what happens of good to 'god' when this is just an escape and why bother crediting something when this being could take credit for himself?"

That was when I finally managed to break through that poorly built fortress in her mind. She said she would consider what I had said and that she was sorry for interrupting my meal. I bid her goodbye hoping that we would never meet again and then I went to the desert section to catch myself some flan.

So yes I apologize for this little story but I had to explain why I brought up this question. She felt compelled to tell her beliefs out of the blue and I felt forced to confront her and stand my ground on my own. This applies to other things as well, not just religion.

I think a simple "no" would have sufficed, instead of the reverse-preaching.

-Rorschach

[Overdose]

You are obviously not experienced in dealing with these kind of people.

Edited by Overdose, 23 January 2009 - 18:49.

[Dutchygamer]

I think you did better then I would ever do. Good job

[Chyros]

Overdose, on 23 Jan 2009, 20:49, said:

You are obviously not experienced in dealing with these kind of people.

Ha, clearly not, no XD .

Anyway, spreading the message is an integral part of many beliefs. They really believe they are doing the world a favour in this way, because they can save them from damnation, or enlighten their lives. If you have a parent who genuinely believes, and they know you are an atheist, they will in all likelihood constantly try to persuade you to start believing, for actual fear of you.

If you managed to talk one half out of it like you did, you weren't dealing with a particularly zealous specimen .

[The Wandering Jew]

Chatty Religious Lady: Do you believe in God?

Me: If I went to India and told them about God and Jesus Christ, they would inform me that there are three divinities in the form of Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. If I went to Saudi Arabia, they would tell me that Allah is their God and Muhammad is their Prophet. If I went to Israel and told them about Jesus Christ, they'll dismiss His divinity. If I went to the Vatican, the Pope there shall insist on Christ's Divinity. If I went to Thailand and told them about God, they'll rather tell me that I do not have to have a deity in order to be saved....So, lady, tell me. With religious differences around the world, why do you choose to believe in Christianity? You can be an Islamic follower. You can be a Protestant. You can be a Hindu. You can be a Buddhist. I am just curious to know why, why you have chosen your religion to believe in.

Chatty Religious Lady: Because I have faith in God inorder for me to attain salvation.

Me:Who doesn't want to be saved? All I'm asking is that why you chose to believe in your religion. Do you have to indoctrinate an Islamic fellow, or a Hindu, or a Protestant, or a Buddhist and convert themselves to being a Christian?

Chatty Religious Lady:I do not meant that.

Me:You do. But unconsciously, you are indoctrinating another fellow. Everyone should have a freedom to choose their own belief. Indoctrinating them is a subtle form of violation of that right. Simply tell them what you believe in and they'll simply tell theirs. As for me, I do not give a damn whether a congregation of ants worshipping a mushroom as long as they believe in the existence of good.

Edited by The Wandering Jew, 24 January 2009 - 00:50.

[WNxMastrefubu]

well thought out, good idea.

[deltaepsilon]

Overdose, on 22 Jan 2009, 21:18, said:

So I was at this restaurant today and there was a lady sitting on the table next to me. I'm in the middle of my meal and suddenly she wants to start a conversation. Considering I hate talking when I'm eating and the woman wasn't attractive I just pretended that I was listening to her while I tried to finish my meal as fast as I could so I didn't have to listen to her blabber. A few minutes later she asked if I "believed in god" and to which church I go to. My meal was practically ruined.

So I wiped my lips with the napkin and said that "I can't believe in something I can't prove it exists. So no I don't believe in any god because I can't prove its existence and that same thing is questionable in the first place." She looked at me like I had some contagious disease and asked why. Then I proceeded to lecture her on how humans are not capable of proving the existence of god and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. That is even if such a being exists in the first place.

Then I started to explain how religion is flawed because religion is the work of Man and not god and how it is used to twist and remodel a person's very important self values and ideals in a process called 'conditioning'. I also explained to her how they use the principle of belief and how it goes hand to hand with faith. This tool makes a person ignore his or her own instincts and conscience by branding it as fear and how this fear denies faith because of this 'slip' of beliefs.

Then I proceeded to the checkmate. I told her "Even with the small possibility of god existing why would you worship a being that doesn't care in the slightest about the world and with you? A being that does not prove his existence something that every other being in this world strives to prove. Blaming what happens of bad in the 'devil' and crediting what happens of good to 'god' when this is just an escape and why bother crediting something when this being could take credit for himself?"

That was when I finally managed to break through that poorly built fortress in her mind. She said she would consider what I had said and that she was sorry for interrupting my meal. I bid her goodbye hoping that we would never meet again and then I went to the desert section to catch myself some flan.

So yes I apologize for this little story but I had to explain why I brought up this question. She felt compelled to tell her beliefs out of the blue and I felt forced to confront her and stand my ground on my own. This applies to other things as well, not just religion.

Legen-dary.

[Alias]

This is also existent in the negative: Why do people have to declare their lack of religious beliefs?

I personally believe that my beliefs belong to myself. I'm going to listen as much to an athiest blabber on how there is no God as much as I'd listen to a Christian blabber on. Beliefs should not be thrusted upon you, they should be chosen by yourself.

Please note: knowing is different to believing. I personally believe for one to formulate a complete set of beliefs that they need to consider all options, otherwise the logic behind the decision will be flawed. Wanting religion and knowing religion is different. I believe everyone should have at least a basic knowledge of all major religions before they can consider their beliefs to be 'right' for them.

All I can say about this... you're being just as annoying as she is.

[BeefJeRKy]

Alias, on 24 Jan 2009, 0:42, said:

This is also existent in the negative: Why do people have to declare their lack of religious beliefs?

I personally believe that my beliefs belong to myself. I'm going to listen as much to an athiest blabber on how there is no God as much as I'd listen to a Christian blabber on. Beliefs should not be thrusted upon you, they should be chosen by yourself.

Please note: knowing is different to believing. I personally believe for one to formulate a complete set of beliefs that they need to consider all options, otherwise the logic behind the decision will be flawed. Wanting religion and knowing religion is different. I believe everyone should have at least a basic knowledge of all major religions before they can consider their beliefs to be 'right' for them.

All I can say about this... you're being just as annoying as she is.

I agree with you there. I'm not religious though I do believe in a higher intelligence you can call God, and somehow this seems to offend many students particularly science faculty. Seriously they're being more zealous than anyone I've ever met and that includes some extremist Christians and Muslims I've met in Beirut!

[Dutchygamer]

Alias, on 24 Jan 2009, 6:42, said:

This is also existent in the negative: Why do people have to declare their lack of religious beliefs?

I personally believe that my beliefs belong to myself. I'm going to listen as much to an athiest blabber on how there is no God as much as I'd listen to a Christian blabber on. Beliefs should not be thrusted upon you, they should be chosen by yourself.

Please note: knowing is different to believing. I personally believe for one to formulate a complete set of beliefs that they need to consider all options, otherwise the logic behind the decision will be flawed. Wanting religion and knowing religion is different. I believe everyone should have at least a basic knowledge of all major religions before they can consider their beliefs to be 'right' for them.

All I can say about this... you're being just as annoying as she is.

Most of the times the non-believers don't start convos with asking if you don't believe in God. They only say that they don't believe when someone else asks them first about their religion/believe. That is the main difference.

[Alias]

That is where you are wrong. Take a look on this forum. Most of the threads on God/Religion are created by atheists/agnostics.
We can conclude from at least the forum's sample size that the people more wanting to 'talk' about religion are infact the atheists.

[Dauth]

Alias, on 24 Jan 2009, 12:47, said:

That is where you are wrong. Take a look on this forum. Most of the threads on God/Religion are created by atheists/agnostics.
We can conclude from at least the forum's sample size that the people more wanting to 'talk' about religion are infact the atheists.

Why should atheists be called atheists? Theist is a term for someone who believes, why should I meet you on your terms, surely I have every right to called you a paranormalist? I will also point out yet again, atheists and agnostics have no unifying code other than we won't believe.

[Alias]

Dauth, on 24 Jan 2009, 23:56, said:

Alias, on 24 Jan 2009, 12:47, said:

That is where you are wrong. Take a look on this forum. Most of the threads on God/Religion are created by atheists/agnostics.
We can conclude from at least the forum's sample size that the people more wanting to 'talk' about religion are infact the atheists.

Why should atheists be called atheists? Theist is a term for someone who believes, why should I meet you on your terms, surely I have every right to called you a paranormalist? I will also point out yet again, atheists and agnostics have no unifying code other than we won't believe.

You get what I mean. Terminology isn't the topic here.

[Dauth]

My point is two fold, the terminology which could be taken as offensive.

Secondly that branding everyone who doesn't believe in religion together is more myopic than labelling every Christian as God botherers. At least Christians have some sort of unifying outlook.

[TehKiller]

Actually since atheists did used first the terminology you cant blame us for it,blame the idiots who called themselves atheists in the first place.

Quote

That is where you are wrong. Take a look on this forum. Most of the threads on God/Religion are created by atheists/agnostics.
We can conclude from at least the forum's sample size that the people more wanting to 'talk' about religion are infact the atheists.

From experience I can actually say this is damn true. The only time i saw a religious person creating a topic like that ended up with majority of posts full "facts" to convert ppl to atheism

Quote

You are obviously not experienced in dealing with these kind of people.

The kind of people like yourself it seems...if you dont care about religion you wouldnt try to convert that person to atheism (and yes you were trying to convert her...)

[Overdose]

First, I'm a strong agnostic not an atheist. Second.. "convert people to atheism"? What the hell are you saying?

Listen I have nothing personal against god. Sure I think he might not exist, however, if this god that you claim to know that he exists gave me free will I might as well question his existence otherwise it would be going to waste. My fuss is with religion and NOT god. If you don't know what an agnostic is, I suggest you do some studying.

Edit: Third, we agnostics and atheists don't convert people. Because we don't believe in the notion of heaven and hell, so it's not like we are trying to save your souls from an eternity of suffering or anything.

Edited by Overdose, 24 January 2009 - 14:44.

[RaiDK]

It's the same with any sort of beliefs or interests. I mean hell, who doesn't like getting all their friends to listen to a band you like?

[Major Fuckup]

RaiDK, on 25 Jan 2009, 6:16, said:

It's the same with any sort of beliefs or interests. I mean hell, who doesn't like getting all their friends to listen to a band you like?

OooooOOooohh well said 0.o

[TehKiller]

Overdose, on 24 Jan 2009, 15:30, said:

Edit: Third, we agnostics and atheists don't convert people. Because we don't believe in the notion of heaven and hell, so it's not like we are trying to save your souls from an eternity of suffering or anything.

Conversion includes trying to change someones belief and talking someone out of religion counts as converting...it doesnt matter if you believe god exists or not you were trying to convert her by making her believe God doesnt exist. Renesaince also claimed they werent converting ppl to their cause, yet we see texts calling ppl to pass from Christianity to agnosticism. So yes even atheists/agnostics were converting ppl before and now.

[Ion Cannon!]

He wasn't trying to convert her, he just wanted her to shut up. I would have used a much more direct method namely "Shut up, i'm trying to eat here" If she continued bothering me I may have taken the OD approach. I've had to do it once before, some nut was trying to "save me" he just wouldn't stop, so I suppose I crushed him spiritually..

[The Wandering Jew]

Dauth, on 24 Jan 2009, 21:27, said:

My point is two fold, the terminology which could be taken as offensive.

Secondly that branding everyone who doesn't believe in religion together is more myopic than labelling every Christian as God botherers. At least Christians have some sort of unifying outlook.

I just can't help noticing this one.

The word atheist became (overtime) a negative word. Just like the words knave and wench. An atheist is not supposed to be evil, ya know.

P.S. The topic starter should have said, "Please, not right now. Perhaps some day in the near future. Thank you." or something like that.

[Zero]

The Wandering Jew, on 28 Jan 2009, 4:30, said:

The word atheist became (overtime) a negative word. Just like the words knave and wench. An atheist is not supposed to be evil, ya know.

I agree.
Also, atheist does not neceseraly mean you do not believe in a god.

If I remember right:
A=No/Without
Theist=Comes from theism which is roughly religion/belief
Religion=Believe of a god, and is usually a system of worship of the said god by many people

Therefore, what atheism really denounces is the worshipping of the aforementioned god regardless of name/shape. At least that is what I got from it. In case I'm not being clear, atheism is actually the opposite in religion not in the belief of god but in the belief of worshiping that god.

I, for one, have nothing against religion-believe it or not. Actually, I do believe in god sometimes (although sometimes I don't, it can be dependent on the moment and my mood). The thing is, the reason why so many of my threads might seem anti-religious is curiosity (ex: Is Religion Necessary I actually came up with that after seeing Religilous and was curious). What I DO denounce is the worship of the said god (he does things that are pricky at times, although it seems it DOES do some things that are pretty nice). Also, should be noted, I do not believe in the normal version of god, I believe in a more...scientific one.

Also, religion brings people together, it gives them a sense of meaning. In other words, it is comforting to know that other people like/believe in what you do (like posted above, who isn't happy that they and their friends like the same band?). So, yeah, people, especially religious people like to know people believe/like what they do. I say especially religious because religion is based on support from other people and whatnot too.