16 replies to this topic

[Z_mann]

I've decided to attempt and open this topic here, mostly because I'm tired of all the bias, hatred and general foolery that the subject generates on many of the local forums. Since I know all you to be respectable and behaving, I'm hoping that here it will not be the case. It could also help clear out some issues i had with it for a while.

The question: what's your take on the NATO intervention, and do you justify it? Also, what is your opinion on the situation now, and how do you think it will develop in the future.

I won't begin this topic, because I wish to remain as objective as I can. I can, however provide some basic info about it, if anybody's interested. I'll try and find as many independent figures as I can.

[partyzanpaulzy]

Dauth Edit: You've been kicked from the PA for this stunt, have a nice day

Edited by Dauth, 29 March 2009 - 22:54.

[AZZKIKR]

based on wat i know, kosovo was given independence due to alleged discrimination against the albanian people by the serbians. this was also due to the bosnian war, with several crimes against humanity. but, i think if only there was more social interactions betwen the croats, serbs, and bosnians, and albanians, no crimes against humanity, no hatred. hell, in WW2 they had a common cause, fighting the germans, but they too killed one another with happiness. all this is due to the various prejudices that can occur, and how a government shud prevent it.

hell, like my country. majority of people in governent are chinese, majority population is chinese. yet, as a malay, i have many chinese freinds, and indian friends. we learn of one another's culture, and appreciate the peace

[Wizard]

This thread has been temporarily suspended

[Dauth]

Thread approved after action taken, let it be known that we don't take that sort of shit.

Back to an objective view of the topic at hand.

[NergiZed]

Well, my knowledge of this is fairly vague; I think this is a separate incident from the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the war in Croatia. (which is where that big massacre took place). From what I remember, there was an escalation of violence in Kosovo (the Kosovo War?), and NATO intervened by bombing Serbia.

IMO, the majority of the Kosovar population has always wanted independence from Serbian government for a very long time, so a 'war of independence' was almost inevitable. I think the NATO intervention and installation of an international police forcer there prevented years and years of bloodshed and violence. The fact is, all those different ethnicities down in the Balkans don't seem to get along very well, having an international police force there would prevent some of the violence there.

[Dutchygamer]

All I can say is that for some reason the Dutchies are keep getting blamed for the massacre at Sarajevo (or some other city there), and I still dunno why

[Z_mann]

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IMO, the majority of the Kosovar population has always wanted independence from Serbian government for a very long time, so a 'war of independence' was almost inevitable. I think the NATO intervention and installation of an international police force there prevented years and years of bloodshed and violence. The fact is, all those different ethnicities down in the Balkans don't seem to get along very well, having an international police force there would prevent some of the violence there.

I'd like to express my disagreement on this viewpoint, as it is not solely sentimental or patriotic.

First of all, regarding the Albanian struggle for independence, I think it should be noted that Kosovo and Metohia was in fact an autonomous region in both the Federal republic of Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslav Republic (formed after the Balkan wars). In fact, Kosovo was one of two autonomous regions, and the other, the northern province of Vojvodina still attains that status within Serbia. Autonomous regions, according to the constitution, have their own internal legislative and judical system. They are not allowed to have an armed force.

Kosovo is not (at least was not) an Albanian state within Serbia. Due to the intense historical migrations and developments, the entire region (including FYR Macedonia, parts of Monetnegro and southern Serbia) became fused with a large number of ethnicities - Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks, Serb muslims, Turks, serb Catholics, Albanian catholcis, Jewish... Independence was never instituted simply because one of the minorities would overpower all the others, wich would lead either to discrimination, or in the worst case to exile and genocide. Same thing already happened during the Balkan wars: in the now Coratian province of Slavonia. The region was densely populated by both Serbs and Croats, an the disposition was mostly even. Nearing the end of the war, somewhere between 200000 and 300000 people were exiled into Serbia, a presently unknown number (can't find independent figures) went missing or was killed.


Miloshevic spoke loudly about defending the Serbian rights (his sentence: 'nobody can touch you'), although in truth, there was little done on the issue. Army commanders were not about to repeat the mistake of Vukovar (little known fact is that the area around the town, and the town itself were mostly Serbian populated before the war). In a recent broadcast, a retired general of the JNA (Yugoslav army) discussed the now declassified files about the operations days before the bombing started. He claimed there was no mass relocation of populace, regardless of nationality. Armed forces were dispatched to prepare for what was believed to be a coming land invasion by NATO. Civilians were alerted abut the danger: in Bosnia, many people were trapped in the crossfire between Croatian, Muslim and Serbian armed forces. Most of them evacuated on their free will.

Violence escalation was mostly product of the KLA, the Kosovo Liberation Army. Be they terrorists, or freedom fighters - I believe they were the ones who broke the peace. They were allied, coordinated and supplied by NATO forces.

I have some proof to back this up, but I'm getting type-tired, and lets not blow all of the topic in one post

Quote

All I can say is that for some reason the Dutchies are keep getting blamed for the massacre at Sarajevo (or some other city there), and I still dunno why worried.gif

Dutch forces were there on a UN peacekeeping mission in Srebrenica. They did not intervene.

[NergiZed]

Z_mann, on 30 Mar 2009, 9:12, said:

Quote

IMO, the majority of the Kosovar population has always wanted independence from Serbian government for a very long time, so a 'war of independence' was almost inevitable. I think the NATO intervention and installation of an international police force there prevented years and years of bloodshed and violence. The fact is, all those different ethnicities down in the Balkans don't seem to get along very well, having an international police force there would prevent some of the violence there.

I'd like to express my disagreement on this viewpoint, as it is not solely sentimental or patriotic.

First of all, regarding the Albanian struggle for independence, I think it should be noted that Kosovo and Metohia was in fact an autonomous region in both the Federal republic of Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslav Republic (formed after the Balkan wars). In fact, Kosovo was one of two autonomous regions, and the other, the northern province of Vojvodina still attains that status within Serbia. Autonomous regions, according to the constitution, have their own internal legislative and judical system. They are not allowed to have an armed force.

Well, being autonomous doesn't stop people from wanting independence. Just think Kurdistan, Tibet, South Ossetia, Chechnya, etc. etc. Point is a whole hell of a lot of autonomous regions want independance. Some, are de facto independant, like Taiwan and Transdenestra.

Quote

Kosovo is not (at least was not) an Albanian state within Serbia. Due to the intense historical migrations and developments, the entire region (including FYR Macedonia, parts of Monetnegro and southern Serbia) became fused with a large number of ethnicities - Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks, Serb muslims, Turks, serb Catholics, Albanian catholcis, Jewish... Independence was never instituted simply because one of the minorities would overpower all the others, which would lead either to discrimination, or in the worst case to exile and genocide. Same thing already happened during the Balkan wars: in the now Coratian province of Slavonia. The region was densely populated by both Serbs and Croats, an the disposition was mostly even. Nearing the end of the war, somewhere between 200000 and 300000 people were exiled into Serbia, a presently unknown number (can't find independent figures) went missing or was killed.

Well, I'm pretty sure that Kosovo is like 90% Albanian, so just by ethnicity alone they would be rather united. Discrimination is perfectly natural and is present in all countries to a certain degree, whether de jure or de facto It's simply a lot more noticable in smaller and/or less stable countries with less mixed cultures. Your worst-case scenerio is just that, a worst case, with a fairly unlikely chance of occuring due to the international presense there. Though I guess that never stopped any of the genocides around the world. I would still say that it's unlikely since a slaughter of Serbs in Kosovo would surely give Serbia, with possible backing by Russia, a very good excuse to intervene and thus starting another Balkan war.

Quote

Miloshevic spoke loudly about defending the Serbian rights (his sentence: 'nobody can touch you'), although in truth, there was little done on the issue. Army commanders were not about to repeat the mistake of Vukovar (little known fact is that the area around the town, and the town itself were mostly Serbian populated before the war). In a recent broadcast, a retired general of the JNA (Yugoslav army) discussed the now declassified files about the operations days before the bombing started. He claimed there was no mass relocation of populace, regardless of nationality. Armed forces were dispatched to prepare for what was believed to be a coming land invasion by NATO. Civilians were alerted abut the danger: in Bosnia, many people were trapped in the crossfire between Croatian, Muslim and Serbian armed forces. Most of them evacuated on their free will.

Violence escalation was mostly product of the KLA, the Kosovo Liberation Army. Be they terrorists, or freedom fighters - I believe they were the ones who broke the peace. They were allied, coordinated and supplied by NATO forces.

I have some proof to back this up, but I'm getting type-tired, and lets not blow all of the topic in one post

Well, you are undoubtibly more well-versed in the happenings in the Balkans since you live there.

I'm sure both sides killed or exiled civilians. I would probably have to agree that KLA most likely escalated the situation in Kosovo. I'm sure the way the West reacted (by boming Serbia for 78 days) was because the only thing that they remember from The Balkans is 'Srebrenica'.

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All I can say is that for some reason the Dutchies are keep getting blamed for the massacre at Sarajevo (or some other city there), and I still dunno why worried.gif

Dutch forces were there on a UN peacekeeping mission in Srebrenica. They did not intervene.

It's incredibly sad how often this occurs, it seems half the time there's a massacre, there's an international peacekeeping force nearby doing nothing.

Edited by NergiZed, 30 March 2009 - 15:23.

[Z_mann]

Serbian people actively refuse to participate in any demographic surveys done by UNMIK, or the new Kosovo establishment. The figures you'll find are simply estimates. I think its because in this kind of situation, whatever you attempt to do with the government can be used to promote 'recognition'.

I must digress, the figures I talked about regarding the situation in Kosovo are pre-war. Most Serbs and Albanians that opposed the KLA hav long been exiled. 57,000 Serbs were exiled (according to NY Times source). I'm pretty sure that in the next 60 years there will be no more Serbs in Kosovo.

Guess the only way to surely preserve a vase is to break it, so that it may never be broken again.

[TehKiller]

My opinion on Kosovo...Well if the albanians really wanted it to be a sovereign state then i dont see any problems with that though I cant really say I agree with the way they've got their independence (unlike in western yugoslavia Albanians were the first ones to open fire actually).

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It's incredibly sad how often this occurs, it seems half the time there's a massacre, there's an international peacekeeping force nearby doing nothing.

They actually did do something... they didnt intervene, they are the cause of the massacre as they handed over a area full of Croats and Bosniaks to the Serbs (note: I aint flaming anyone just explaining why are the Dutch being blamed for Srebrenica) . Some of the dutch soldiers refused to take their medals for serving in the Balkans and IMO that was the only decent thing to do

[D.K.]

Dutchygamer, on 30 Mar 2009, 10:58, said:

All I can say is that for some reason the Dutchies are keep getting blamed for the massacre at Sarajevo (or some other city there), and I still dunno why

Here's the deal mate.

While Srebrenica massacre occured, you people stood there with your hands crossed. Problem is in that your people haven't done anything at all, standing maybe few kilometers away, if that much. I heard some people excusing:"Oh, we were waiting for direct order...", that's just plain stupidity - would you let someone make bloody rave party in your neighbourhood? I'm sure not.

But all that is now matter of past, and the damage has been done. I guess you'll have to prove some other time.

[NergiZed]

DrugKoala, on 1 Apr 2009, 15:26, said:

Dutchygamer, on 30 Mar 2009, 10:58, said:

All I can say is that for some reason the Dutchies are keep getting blamed for the massacre at Sarajevo (or some other city there), and I still dunno why

Here's the deal mate.

While Srebrenica massacre occured, you people stood there with your hands crossed. Problem is in that your people haven't done anything at all, standing maybe few kilometers away, if that much. I heard some people excusing:"Oh, we were waiting for direct order...", that's just plain stupidity - would you let someone make bloody rave party in your neighbourhood? I'm sure not.

But all that is now matter of past, and the damage has been done. I guess you'll have to prove some other time.

I would say meh to that. It's one thin to disobey direct orders and save a bunch of people if you have the clear advantage. It's a completely other thing to disobey orders, try to rescue the bunch of people and all get killed. IIRC the Dutch were outnumbered by at least 4 to 1, had no armored vehicles, poorly coordinated air support, and lack of supplies.

Though, I have to say, if the latter happened, they would be elevated to the highest plateau of heroism. (However, like most heroes, they'd be dead, and that'd be bad).

Edited by ǝɯɐƃ ǝɥʇ, 01 April 2009 - 19:45.

[TehKiller]

You still failed the point...the Dutch sent them to the Serbs (if the serbs came by themselves to Srebrenica under UN jurisdiction (and without approval) the UN would them bomb them to kingdom come like NATO did). They handed those civilians to the serbs like lamb to a butcher.

[D.K.]

Look, I don't blame anyone, since none of you have been there (is it?), and I've came up with what I've been told. My uncle was there at the time, and he was one of the few to survive the massacre itself. So I'm just bringing the "live" sight of it.

And FFS, topic is Kosovo issue... Not Srebrenica.

[BeefJeRKy]

Indeed please get back on topic. If you want a topic about Srebrenica, start your own.

[TehKiller]

Agreed...sorry for the derail