16 replies to this topic

[nip]

More than 40.000 Italians are homeless, nearly 300 died and Benedict XVI donates 500 chocolate Easter eggs, several new sacramental beakers and an undisclosed amount of money (probably to buy egg cups) to the people in the quake-hit Abruzzo region in central Italy, encourages them to cling to hope and take solace in Easter's joy. Some days ago the infamous pope said that he will convey comfort to the people and visit them once Easter is over. But first he called in experts from around the globe to restore destroyed churches, according to a Vatican spokesman the biggest concern at the moment is the unusability of churches in the hit region. I would like to ask the clerics who called Hurricane Katrina judgement from above why all churches in the Abruzzo region are destroyed by the quake...

A sign?

At this year's Easter sermon German Catholic bishop Walter Mixa labelled the mass murder of Nazism and Communism as a consequence of atheism. "A society without god is hell on earth", he said. "The inhumanity of atheism has been proven by the godless regimes of National Socialism and Communism, their concentration camps and gulags, their secret police and their mass murder", army bishop Mixa continued. "Godless systems that persecuted Christians and the church. Where god is denied and fought, dignity of men is denied and ignored. Without Christianity, there is no true lasting humanity", Mixa said. Contrary to him I say it's been Christianity with their age-old anti-Semitism that did pave the way for nazi mass murder of the jews, the Catholic Church has been the preparer, not the victim. In 1933 the Holy See and Germany signed the Reichskonkordat (what is still a valid treaty in Germany 2009!) and years later in 1937 another catholic, Cardinal Faulhaber delivered the following speech:

"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad."

Nazi ideology is partly based on Christian tradition, anti-Judaism is such a tradition. The majority of the Nazi elite called themselves 'Christian', confessing atheists were unwanted in SS and NSDAP. Hitler paid church tax throughout his life and he was convinced of his divine mission. Like any other mass murder the Holocaust is manifestation of the wish to be god. Such a large-scale murder of an ethnic religious group cannot be 'explained' without religious justification by the perpetrators. It works out only with the help of 'god'. After the war 'the greatest moral power on earth' supported the escape of representatives of the Nazi-regime and members of the SS. The escape routes, the so-called rat lines (because the Catholic Church was involved the US military called them 'abbey routes') lead mainly via Italy/Rome to South America and to Arabian countries.

To struggle to be a good human to get approval and reward from god and to avoid punishment isn't moral - it is opportunistic and ass kissing. Someone who believes without god he will turn into killer, rapist or bandit debunks himself as immoral and those people should be avoided. If ethic and moral solely derives from religion, as bishop Mixa implies, then some distinctions ought to be found in religious and atheist ethic. Apparently not, regardless of religion, race, culture, etc. the ethic intuition of people do not differ. My parents who believed atheism is an attitude of mind that leads to understanding while religion is coma banned their children from religion. "Free your mind and your ass will follow", I was told and I'm profoundly thankful for their wisdoms. Funny to see theists don't believe in most gods and while I don't believe in their gods, too precipitating vitriolic reactions among them.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Albert Einstein

Pope Eggs
Mixa

[Rayburn]

Interesting thoughts and I can't really add anything other than agreement, especially on the Einstein quote which hits the nail on the head. One CAN be moral without being religious and it's really 'funny' how that Mixa chap comfortably omitted the crusades, the inquisition, the witch trials, exploitation, hypocrisy and all the other nasty stuff the church did for freaking centuries. If the fear of something as unproven and illogical as purgatory/divine punishment/god's wrath/whatever is the only thing that keeps you in line with the basic rules of human co-existence, your behaviour is not the result of common sense but rather plain egoistical self-interest. I can only speak for myself but religious values never played any major part in my education. Admittedly, there was a time when I was kinda into the whole Christianity thing because I needed comfort. Eventually, I found comfort in my own ideas which revolve around a virtue that used to be much more common in the past: Common sense; sanity and reason; the foundation of moral that needs no vengeful god in order to function. All it needs is a free, fair-minded individual who doesn't have to be kept in line with something as basic as the fear of what comes after death. That's about the only thing that keeps religion from becoming universally redundant: They pretend to have an answer for a question that can't be answered, something that no political ideology, not even the most fanatical and dishonest, ever offered. That's the unique feature of religion: 'Live by our rules and you'll go to a better place once you kick the bucket. Of course we haven't got any proof but we've got faith.'

Edited by Rayburn, 13 April 2009 - 17:48.

[Dutchygamer]

I didn't read it very well, but you say that what happened in Italy was the cause of atheists?

[Rayburn]

He was hinting at certain church representatives who called the Katrina hurricane (the one that wiped out New Orleans a few years ago) a rightful punishment from god (because sending a freaking hurricane that indiscriminately annihilites everyone in its path is apparently a 'good' way to tell sinners from saints). Kinda makes you wonder what these people might have said after the Abruzzo earthquake destroyed all those churches, doesn't it? The whole 'merciful god' thing kinda falls apart when you look at all the terrible shit going on in the world. Bad things DO happen to good people and bad people DO have a good life and if you ask the obvious question 'what kind of god would allow that to happen', you get the usual answer that 'god moves in mysterious ways'.

Edited by Rayburn, 13 April 2009 - 18:07.

[nip]

Dutchygamer, on 13 Apr 2009, 19:42, said:

I didn't read it very well, but you say that what happened in Italy was the cause of atheists?

No, it's like Rayburn said and I wonder if the quake so close to Easter was a sign from god towards his representatives on earth.

[CodeCat]

What makes you think this 'god' abides by the calendar of Earth's orbit around the sun? A year is just a set period of time, there is no special significance to it. And by extension, neither is there any significance to a particular date.

[Soul]

I can't help but agree with you nip. You make a strong and intelligent point.
*High fives*

Edited by Soul, 13 April 2009 - 23:50.

[Dauth]

CodeCat, on 13 Apr 2009, 22:30, said:

What makes you think this 'god' abides by the calendar of Earth's orbit around the sun? A year is just a set period of time, there is no special significance to it. And by extension, neither is there any significance to a particular date.

In relation to distant objects we are in the closest position we will be until the cycle repeats.

Though its an interesting logical question, was the second coming the resurrection?

A long time ago I gave up on the Church, at last they're getting the message though, they appear to be giving up on me.

[Major Fuckup]

well if you ask me i think that the pope has his head so far up his arse you can't tell if his arse is his face
first the pope picks on the gays then he bitches about the use of condoms in africa and now hes proclaiming that the quakes are a sign from god? who the fuck does he think he is god him self

[CodeCat]

Another interesting possibility: What if there really WAS a second coming, but it wasn't on our planet?

[Z_mann]

Then it's not THE second coming. At least not by the Bible.

And I don't think that the Lord would send a message. Simply because it would interfere with one of the most basic human traits: choice.

[TehKiller]

Major Fuckup, on 14 Apr 2009, 3:56, said:

first the pope picks on the gays then he bitches about the use of condoms in africa and now hes proclaiming that the quakes are a sign from god? who the fuck does he think he is god him self

1. Ever read the Bible and heard about Adam and Eve?
2. If i understood him right he claimed that condoms weren't as effective as not having sex at all.
3. Got any evidence that he claimed that?
4. I'll ignore that part

[Shirou]

The Vatican has always been corrupt and it will be as long ast it's a self-righteous state without any rules to comply to.

[deltaepsilon]

Aftershock, on 14 Apr 2009, 22:33, said:

The Vatican has always been corrupt and it will be as long ast it's a self-righteous state without any rules to comply to.

Which is fortunate that most of the world is secular.

[Zero]

I agree with you there Nip, on ALL points.

@Shock: ALL insitutions are corrupt, at least political ones, at least they become so within like...10 days of being formed. It's the human condition, you can do nothing of it. And yes, religion (as far as the churches are concerned) ARE political institutions.

@TehKiller:...welll.....
About point #2: Well, they say abstinance is 100% effective...BUT if I remember correctly, the bible tells us about a little virgin who got some Jesus Juice. This poster will explain it perfectly:

My point? Historically, abstinence isn't 100% either. Stop bothering people about sex, it really IS a personal choice and it is immoral to try to stop people from doing something that is part of human behavior. So what if condoms are not as effective as abstinence? It's sure as hell more effective than going commando!

I find it HILARIOUS that he included the Nazis as an aethistical organization when they were Catholic. Not only where they Catholic, they were FANATICALLY Catholic. How much so? Well, Catholicism was THE Nazi religion, even Hitler was one and believed himself to be a servant of God and His will. Kind of ironic, no?

Not only that, he preaches how good the church is. Not only did they help the Nazis escape, they actually turned their heads to their attrocities and whatnot, not only that, they also seemed to support the Nazi regime and their actions. This man is either a complete idiot or completely ignorant of Church history. Furthermore, the Church persecutes it's OWN followers and protectors. Case and point? The Templars. Killed, in part, by order from the Pope (as well as the French King). If I remember correctly, the Templars guarded the Church VERY closely, protected it, and were more devoted than most bishops, maybe even more than your average pope.

Also, Christianity has started many wars: Indirectly (WWII to name one) AND directly (Crusades to name another one).

I'm not being anti-religion, I'm only pointing ALL that out to make this point: he calls aethists evil? The Catholic Church did more evil in any fifty year period in it's history than aethism has done in it's ENTIRE existence. Aethists have not started wars over god, nor have they persecuted and burned every person who believes in God (there were SOME individuals, and maybe organizations who did it, but never very unified unlike the Catholic Church).

No, I'm not anti-Catholic, nor am I anti-religion. The point is, and I agree with MajorFuckup, that th- BOTH these men think they ARE God by claiming such things, or at least they imply so. NOBODY knows or can even understand God's will, nor his plan, as such is the primary belief of EVERY religion, is it not? Therefore, how can these men go claiming such?

For me the Catholic Church is beyond hope, it needs to learn to ACCEPT change. Sure, it has done so better than some religions (sorry Islam), but it has not done so enough. Is God not all powerful? Then can he not allow evolution to take place under his will? Is he not seeking to be understood as it says in the bible? Then is science not the vessel for it. Newton believed so, as did Einstein, etc., etc.

For me, I miss the days of Pope John Paul II, he was a wise and good man. And also, he didn't say such incredibly stupid things at such a rediculously fast pace. So, my main point, is that the Catholic Church needs to reconsider it's standpoint, as well as that it needs new leaders (pherhaps like John Paul II? Ahhh...yes....). The Church makes mistakes and you can't go pointing fingers and saying that you are the way as if you had no faults yourself (and greater ones in my opinion too).

Another reason why I believe that religion should be a PERSONAL relationship with God, not the melodramatic social attraction that it uses to "worship." If you don't believe me, go to Church, I go every week! And yes, I enjoy it...some...my priest is cool, need I say more? The only problem is that it's TOO DAMN EARLY in the morning (12 PM for Hispanics)!!!!! How am I supposed to pay attention to mass out of one bloodshot eye?!

Sorry if I made no sense. And even greater apologies if I offended anybody, as I did not mean to.

Oh, and one last point I think funny: They gave up on you Dauth, but my parents have yet to give up on me. The irony of it all

Edited by Zero, 05 July 2009 - 00:19.
Removed merged DP content. Easier on the eyes.

[General]

Rayburn, on 13 Apr 2009, 20:02, said:

He was hinting at certain church representatives who called the Katrina hurricane (the one that wiped out New Orleans a few years ago) a rightful punishment from god (because sending a freaking hurricane that indiscriminately annihilites everyone in its path is apparently a 'good' way to tell sinners from saints). Kinda makes you wonder what these people might have said after the Abruzzo earthquake destroyed all those churches, doesn't it? The whole 'merciful god' thing kinda falls apart when you look at all the terrible shit going on in the world. Bad things DO happen to good people and bad people DO have a good life and if you ask the obvious question 'what kind of god would allow that to happen', you get the usual answer that 'god moves in mysterious ways'.

As a person which believe in a God but doesn't see religions as truth, I will say : God does whatever He wishes, both good and ' evil ', and that what makes Him ' A God ', He can do what He wishes...

But for the persons which only believe an All Loving God or All Merciful God, I say; Open your eyes !

[Golan]

Why should it be a bad thing to sacrifice yourself for getting god's point across in the first place? After all, it's a sure sign of just how badly people have disappointed him if he doesn't seem to mind the damage done to his own temples.