407 replies to this topic

[ultimentra]

Care to give an example of something bad and extremist thats become mainstream today?

[Golan]

What would it matter? Beside the point that "bad" and "extremist" are a matter if personal interpretation as well, IIRC neither of the two is per se an inconsistency to Christianity.

Me personally, I'd say that Christianity itself is bad and extremist (let's see, we've got false propaganda, indoctrination, dogmatic rules and behaviors [blablabla]), but that's probably where you'd pull the "personal interpretation" joker. So yeah...

Edited by Golan, 07 May 2009 - 13:56.

[SquigPie]

I am a Christian.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in love, forgivness and eternal life.

I do not take the Bible as something to be understood litterally, And i believe that in the end, it doesn't matter weather you have a cross around your neck or not, as long as you are nice to somebody other than yourself you believe in God (Jesus told us that he came to us as the poor and helpless, so jesus=god=the poor= believe in selflessness and you believe in God).

Also, my sole reason for belieaving in God is:

We might not prove that god is real. But can we prove that reality is real? And not just a very complicated dream?

Some people only see the facts.

I see the possibilities.

[Golan]

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 14:40, said:

I do not take the Bible as something to be understood litterally, And i believe that in the end, it doesn't matter weather you have a cross around your neck or not, as long as you are nice to somebody other than yourself you believe in God (Jesus told us that he came to us as the poor and helpless, so jesus=god=the poor= believe in selflessness and you believe in God).

So do you mean as soon as one does good he/she is a believer by default, or in return that someone not believing in God cannot do good, as only believing in her enables one to act out of altruistic motives?
Guess there are a couple million people whose existence disproves the former and many who'd argue against the later.

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 14:40, said:

Also, my sole reason for belieaving in God is:

We might not prove that god is real. But can we prove that reality is real? And not just a very complicated dream?

Some people only see the facts.

I see the possibilities.

How about seeing both?

Edited by Golan, 07 May 2009 - 13:56.

[SquigPie]

Its complicated i know, And no, I did NOT mean that every non-religious person is an evil mothf*cker. What i meant was that if you're nice, you'll end up in heaven.

And about seeing both, I don't know what that makes you, but to me, there is no facts, it may all just be a lie/conspiracy, it may be the truth, it may be an error, a jest, Nothing is real and everything is possible.

Also, I think that the three main evils in this world is= Freedom (the choice to rape, murder and generally be evil), Love (Man murders other man because he loves other mans wife) and Memory (memory of something that needs to be revenged, memory of torture that keeps you locked in insanity). All 3 things are also the greatest factors of good Freedom (the choice to give, save and be kind), Love (loving other human beings) and Memory (memories of your youth, loved ones, things that gives you a purpose to live).

All 3 things are linked to religion as well as atheism.

Freedom:
the choice to believe in God
The choice to not believe in God.

Love:
The core philosophy in most religions is to love each other.
Love is a fact, thus atheist believe in it.

Memory:
Memory of what Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed/others did on this world, memories of going to church/mosque/others
Memories of Life's expansion (evolution).


So, in the end.

do we want to remove Atheism or Religion? One cannot exist without the other.

[Golan]

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 15:31, said:

Its complicated i know, And no, I did NOT mean that every non-religious person is an evil mothf*cker. What i meant was that if you're nice, you'll end up in heaven.

Well, that's good to know.

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 15:31, said:

And about seeing both, I don't know what that makes you, but to me, there is no facts, it may all just be a lie/conspiracy, it may be the truth, it may be an error, a jest, Nothing is real and everything is possible.

To me, there is logic and empiricism. That, plus currently studying physics sort of makes it difficult for me to fundamentally doubt science.
Even if all this world is just an illusion, it's the illusion that I (we) life in so its rules apply - it doesn't matter if it's real, as long as it's real for me. Jumping of a Skyscraper might not get you killed for real, but I really have no intention to find out in the near future.

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 15:31, said:

Also, I think that the three main evils in this world is= Freedom (the choice to rape, murder and generally be evil), Love (Man murders other man because he loves other mans wife) and Memory (memory of something that needs to be revenged, memory of torture that keeps you locked in insanity). All 3 things are also the greatest factors of good Freedom (the choice to give, save and be kind), Love (loving other human beings) and Memory (memories of your youth, loved ones, things that gives you a purpose to live).

All 3 things are linked to religion as well as atheism.

Freedom:
the choice to believe in God
The choice to not believe in God.

Love:
The core philosophy in most religions is to love each other.
Love is a fact, thus atheist believe in it.

Memory:
Memory of what Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed/others did on this world, memories of going to church/mosque/others
Memories of Life's expansion (evolution).


So, in the end.

do we want to remove Atheism or Religion? One cannot exist without the other.

I tend to disagree. One might not exist without the possibility of the other, but it's really just a matter of proper planing to euthanize all Atheists. If one person is able to believe in one without believing in the other, then it is very well possible that one exists without the other.
Also, "believe" (and disbelieve) is, for more than a negligible number of persons, not a question of choice but indoctrination. Family, Society, churches, all of these can influence a person to the point at which speaking of a free decision is inappropriate.
Is love a fact? I dunno, but many people would argue that it's just some boring chemical reactions that drive us to proper reproduction.... urgh, personally I prefer the more romantic view, but yeah...
Memory... can be wrong. If you know what I mean...

[SquigPie]

Read Yevgeny Zamyatin's book "We" and you'll know just how f*cked up logic is.

Also, you just said that reality may not be real, but it is to you, so you don't really care.

Well, I believe in God, and he is real to me.

So does it really matter?


Also, about the religion and the choice thing.

Just as there is factors telling you to believe in religion. there are also alot of factors to make you "unbelieve"

They teach us evolution, they work tirelessly on removing anything slightly religious from work and school-systems.

So is atheism really a choice?

"Everyone will believe in a lie, you just have to make it big enough"
-Adolf Hitler

That line can be associated to both religion and science.

[General]

I do not understand why you try to put an end to a belief system Golan, insisting on a subject which you think you are right makes you no less guilty then those who insist on their own religion. There is simply no way to convert someone from his/her beliefs with just trying to disprove his/her point. There is ways to ' teach ' people about things but trying to disprove them never works. And most of the time fighting/wars starts this way.

[Golan]

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 17:52, said:

Read Yevgeny Zamyatin's book "We" and you'll know just how f*cked up logic is.

Disproving logic with logic is... inconclusive.

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 17:52, said:

Also, you just said that reality may not be real, but it is to you, so you don't really care.

Well, I believe in God, and he is real to me.

So does it really matter?

Oh, please don't get me wrong, what you believe in is entirely up to you. But discussing ones own views with others will automatically subject your believes to the judgment of other people's reality.

SquigPie, on 7 May 2009, 17:52, said:

Also, about the religion and the choice thing.

Just as there is factors telling you to believe in religion. there are also alot of factors to make you "unbelieve"

They teach us evolution, they work tirelessly on removing anything slightly religious from work and school-systems.

So is atheism really a choice?

"Everyone will believe in a lie, you just have to make it big enough"
-Adolf Hitler

That line can be associated to both religion and science.

Well you might have been brought up with an education including both science and religion, but other haven't. Being taught evolution and science is being opposed by many religious persons, as well as being taught religion is opposed by many atheists.
And again, I have to disagree with science being depicted as a possible lie - what doesn't claim to be fundamentally true cannot be a lie for the lack of claim for truth. The empiric description of perceived occurrences is by definition inaccurate.

General, on 7 May 2009, 17:54, said:

I do not understand why you try to put an end to a belief system Golan, insisting on a subject which you think you are right makes you no less guilty then those who insist on their own religion. There is simply no way to convert someone from his/her beliefs with just trying to disprove his/her point. There is ways to ' teach ' people about things but trying to disprove them never works. And most of the time fighting/wars starts this way.

I'm not trying to convert him or convince him that his believe is wrong. Or for that matter, that I believe in what I'm writing here.

Edited by Golan, 07 May 2009 - 17:10.

[General]

and he and others believe what they write over there. beliefs are not something to be discussed and eliminated or rewarded, they are personal. I sure agree with the people which concerns when others try to convince them to their own beliefs like they have not something better to do.

[Golan]

A believe stops being personal once it's openly expressed - after all, this is a discussion forum.

[SquigPie]

Personally I hope that Religion (or Atheism for that sake) will never come to an end.

Why?

It will be the death of freedom


The Death of Religion will not be peacefull, there will be violence, death, genocide, suicide, lynching, war.

Some atheists believe that the death of religion will be the birth of freedom, that logic and realism will finally overcome the ancient barbarism that religion is, that atheist are Freedom fighters against the tyranny of religion, and ofcourse freedom fighters have to make a revolution, and with every revolution comes blood.

And then when the last religious person dies. you will finally sit back with a feeling of victory... Freedom at last.

Finally the freedom to choose what you want to believe in! Freedom to choose...well, theres only one choice left. Atheism

But screw that! you're free in so many other ways! No more delusions!

You rebuild society.

But now what?

Damn its boring.

no more discussions with those silly religious people, no more fairy tales, no more stories about ancient greek mythology (you had to burn all of them...Can't allow your kids to believe in something unreal! They might just end up believing in it when they grow up! That would be dangerous...A small and neccisary sacrifice). What the hell can you pass your time with?!?!

You all decide to go and play baseball. Problem solved!

Now the next problem comes. Some idiot found his dads Bible (Must have missed that in The Burnings! Damn!) And he decides to go and preach about it to everyone. A major scale problem is here! Religion is on the rise!

So after long boring discussions. you're leaders come to the conclusion...that the Idiot must die!

So he dies. peacefully, natural death even.

Soon forgoten.

A neccisary evil.

And to skip a long and boring post. Here's what it ended up with.

No imagination, only realism. No names, just numbers. No freedom, only safety in reality.

Our tyranny, replaced by yours.

The Pigs will walk the day religion die.

[ultimentra]

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why cant we all just have our own beliefs, and leave everyone else the hell alone. If they think "hey I think you guys are cool I wanna come to church with you" then whoop-de-doo. If people think "I believe you are completely wrong in every way" then why can't people just say "oh okay, ill let you have your beliefs and you can let me have mine". Eh? I don't diss jews because they don't believe jesus was the son of god, I don't hate atheists for the disbelief of a high power, so what is it anyones business thinking they are right about all of this over someone else?

[Chyros]

ultimentra, on 8 May 2009, 1:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Doesn't any form of belief entail exactly that, by definition?

[Ghostrider]

ultimentra, on 7 May 2009, 19:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why cant we all just have our own beliefs, and leave everyone else the hell alone. If they think "hey I think you guys are cool I wanna come to church with you" then whoop-de-doo. If people think "I believe you are completely wrong in every way" then why can't people just say "oh okay, ill let you have your beliefs and you can let me have mine". Eh? I don't diss jews because they don't believe jesus was the son of god, I don't hate atheists for the disbelief of a high power, so what is it anyones business thinking they are right about all of this over someone else?

If in a certain religion there are consequences for NOT following that religion, then the members of that religion have a moral obligation to try to convince others to come to their beliefs. For example, if Orthodox Christians believe that if you do not follow Christianity then you will have eternal damnation, then they certainly have a moral obligation to try to save others and bring them to the Christian belief. That's one reason why everyone simply can't go about their own business.

Chyros, on 8 May 2009, 1:47, said:

ultimentra, on 8 May 2009, 1:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Doesn't any form of belief entail exactly that, by definition?

Technically I don't believe so, Chyros, as religion isn't necessarily defined as going against the beliefs of another person. It just so happens that beliefs almost always do clash.

[BeefJeRKy]

To put it more plainly Chyros, it isn't a simple matter of black and white.

[Golan]

Eh? As soon as you really believe in something, then you think that this believe is right. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in it. Thus, any believe that differs from yours must be wrong in those discrepancy as it's impossible that two or more contradictory views are right. You can't sensibly say "I'm right but don't want to offend anyone, so you guys are right too!" in such a situation (well, you can, but it's an outright lie).
Now, just ask yourself, what's the better solution? To raise these issues while we're still at the stage of talking, or when we're already at the stage of acting and have our believes physically clash?

@SquigPie
You're attributing certain things specifically to religion, denying them to atheism in the same notion, that aren't linked to either concept. First, freedom is much more than choosing atheism or theism (that is, if you believe in the concept of freedom in the first place, but that's probably another issue).
Second, fairy tales, mythology, heck even religious texts - that is not something that atheism bans. If "atheism" can only brought about the people by physically erasing any transcendent concept instead of convincing people by itself, then it is with a very high probability a wrong pseudo-religious believe.
Third, there really aren't any atheist leaders worth speaking of. Most atheists seem to be not very fond of the concept (those that are usually unknowingly adhere to a pseudo-religion).
Imagination is not contradictory to atheism. Names aren't contradictory to atheism. Math isn't in the slightest bit able to define the whole existence, so it's certainly not "just numbers" in atheism. Freedom is not contradictory to atheism. Reality isn't safe.

[SquigPie]

I don't believe that every non-christian will go to hell. Otherwise Ghandi would be in hell. And I find the thought of that silly.


Also, look up the word "satire", You might find it enlightening.

All I'm giving is a bid on how a revolution just brings another tyranny, just as it always has

Also, for some atheists (not all) Religon IS the cause of all evil, thus religion=evil, so by removing the choice of religion they also remove the choice of evil.

And tell me.

How much choice is there if you on can take one road?

Also, I am a religious man/boy, so when I talk about the "revolution" I ofcourse describe it as an atheistic one, But if it were the other way around (religion removing atheism) it would be just the same.

Edited by SquigPie, 08 May 2009 - 08:53.

[TehKiller]

Chyros, on 8 May 2009, 5:47, said:

ultimentra, on 8 May 2009, 1:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Doesn't any form of belief entail exactly that, by definition?

Not really...at least Christianity doesn't..."we" think we are right and that we dont accept anything else as being right nor wrong either

[Dauth]

TehKiller, on 8 May 2009, 14:46, said:

Chyros, on 8 May 2009, 5:47, said:

ultimentra, on 8 May 2009, 1:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Doesn't any form of belief entail exactly that, by definition?

Not really...at least Christianity doesn't..."we" think we are right and that we dont accept anything else as being right nor wrong either

Speaking as a scientist, I regularly miss this uncertainty when conversing with religious people. They seem pretty adamant, perhaps you're getting a newsletter the rest are missing out on?

Also since I see results as the definition of work completed (cruel I know) I find this quote rather appealing.

Quote

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. ~ Author Unknown

[TehKiller]

Nope im living in a place where there are no fanatic weirdo's like in the West

[Deformat]

Guys,I'm an atheist.

Why?

Well,I simply never had that love to God.Only few people really do have a love for God.A special love,where you love God as you love your family relative.

...

I didn't had such...thing.
Plus,I don't go often to the church,etc.

I consider religion belongs to the person,and at what he believes.

I guess world would be pretty bad without religion,as people would act worse.

[Chyros]

TehKiller, on 8 May 2009, 15:46, said:

Chyros, on 8 May 2009, 5:47, said:

ultimentra, on 8 May 2009, 1:08, said:

I seriously can't see why everyone thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Doesn't any form of belief entail exactly that, by definition?

Not really...at least Christianity doesn't..."we" think we are right and that we dont accept anything else as being right nor wrong either

I'd gladly introduce you to a couple dozen villages in the Netherlands where you are just a tiny bit less of an outcast if one is an atheist than the utter trash onw would be made out to be if one were but a slightly different type of Reformed Christianity for example, and they wouldn't even be able to point out the differences between their two groups . Let alone how Protestants and Catholics get on with each other.

Edited by Chyros, 08 May 2009 - 17:13.

[SquigPie]

This feels...odd.

For once I'm having a religious discussion without the usual:

"LAWL G0D IZ TEH SUXX0RZ!"

"N003Z! HE B 1337!!11ONE1!"

Feels good...

[Dauth]

SquigPie, on 8 May 2009, 19:41, said:

This feels...odd.

For once I'm having a religious discussion without the usual:

"LAWL G0D IZ TEH SUXX0RZ!"

"N003Z! HE B 1337!!11ONE1!"

Feels good...

We got past that stage a long time ago with a couple of useful bans. I'd rather it stayed got over too.