15 replies to this topic

[Dauth]

When I was young my parents told me that their careers advisers had said

Quote

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach

Their generation produced the teachers of mine and its still a phrase that is knocking around. The Government even tried to change it by creating a series of adverts with the tag line

Quote

Those who can, teach

. Now you could not get me into a 11-16 Comprehensive school without several armed men because I frankly have given up on the state education system (I'm allowed to, I went through it). Nevertheless I am a PhD student and one of the brightest graduates from my high school, does that mean that teaching is still doomed?

[Wizard]

Teaching is not doomed, it's pupils are. I know a lot of teachers, several of my secondary and college friends are now teaching and they are, for the most part, of above average intelligence. The standard of learning has seen the biggest decrease and it has nothing to do with poor teachers. It has everything to do with poor students, kids who really couldn't give a fuck if they get good grades or not as they all think they'll end up on Big Brother, marry a footballer or something else completely stupid and totallly useless. Kids today simply don't care about education as they have grown up in the over protectionist environment of a "new labour" nanny state whereby if you don't do well, hell, we'll train you as hairdresser or just let you sit at home and deal drugs.

Teachers are powerless and it's not their fault.

[Libains]

Wizard, on 1 Sep 2009, 23:05, said:

Teachers are powerless and it's not their fault.

Says it all. Teachers are good people - I still regularly keep in touch with several of mine from high school, and they are certainly experts in their field - people say that teachers can't do, so they teach. Tbh some of the smartest people I know are teachers/training to be.

Kids these days, especially in the UK from what I know, are rebellious, immature people. What's worse is that with this pathetic nanny state, teachers have no response - if a child refused to do a task 30/40 years ago, they'd have been whipped with a cane. If they refused today, the teacher can't do a thing - it's bureaucracy gone mad. There are very few pupils who respect their teachers in state schools, and nobody can do anything about it. Even in the private school that I was in - children misbehaved, shouted, and generally respected the teachers about as much as your would a tramp, maybe less. Authority grants no respect, and in this day and age when you can't do fuckall about an insolent little brat, you're doomed.

What I also find incredible is the rate of pay for teachers. They provide an invaluable service, as education is one of the most important things that a child can have (if only they knew it). Teachers have to put up with poor conditions, worse behaviour, and are expected to live on the minimum wage too. I find it insulting to all teachers. Teachers and ex-servicemen are imo two of the most important groups that we have in this country, and yet both are hung out to dry in their jobs, both of which are hard and cause undue stress (military also gets possibility of death thrown in for luls). In a day and age when doctors are being paid over 100k per year each, and ministers are piddling away the taxpayer's money on useless 'security' or on pornos for their husbands, how did we overlook the teachers and the military? Frankly, it's a disgrace, and no wonder nobody wants to be a teacher anymore - the government hasn't madeit worth their while, and the children make you wonder if it was ever worth it to begin with. There was a day when being a teacher was something to be proud of. Now you're either stupid in entering it to begin with, or you're stupid because you can't get any other sort of job. The pride behind it is gone. The respect behind it is gone. And the incentives have most certainly gone.

Who'd want to be a teacher?

[Ion Cannon!]

I can only echo what you have all said before me. The teachers I have known from A level are of high intelligence, just the kids are well - twats. I know it annoys them, because often enough our teachers have discussed how much they want to expell X pupil, but can't because it would reflect badly on the school. Or the governors say they can't.

Its sad but now the image of the school / education system is more important than the actual teaching. Kids who don't want to learn should just be expelled, end of. Same goes for disruptive kids, even if they have ADHD, personality disorders of that kind are just people with twat like personalities, theres nothing wrong with them mentally, they're just little gits.

Fairly sure teachers aren't on minimum wage AJ. My cousin gets over 30k a year, that said, its still not enough.

What is perhaps more worrying is a teachers job seems to no longer be to simply educate. They spend more time dealing with idiots than they do teaching in some cases. They're expected to discipline them, but are given no authority? On the contrary just grabbing a child can result in the little brats useless parents lodging a complaint.

It shouldn't be this way. Do away with league tables, do away with ADHD being a legitimate cause to act like a total cunt. Do away with children who contribute nothing and take so much. Expel the bastards and don't give them benefits. I'm sure someone will say " So what do the children do then? ". They do nothing, they get nothing because they put in nothing. They earned nothing, therefore deserve nothing therefore shall recieve... - nothing.

[Libains]

Ion Cannon!, on 1 Sep 2009, 23:58, said:

Fairly sure teachers aren't on minimum wage AJ. My cousin gets over 30k a year, that said, its still not enough.

Most teachers start on the minimum wage, all but. As with ever career, your salary goes up as you get more experienced, but it's a piddly increase tbh. How you expect someone to survive on between £20-£30k a year is beyond me, especially in this current climate. Single, it's probably just possible. Married, with kids? Not a chance in hell, and it's a disgrace that teachers have to live on scraps to get by. Tbh, I'd see them paid a base salary of around £50k each, and this then gets topped up based on how unruly a school is, how many pupils there are, and the school's location. It's a big difference teaching 40 kids in a comprehensive in the middle of London on £18k, when compared to teaching 15 in a comprehensive in the Cotswolds on £18k.

[Ion Cannon!]

My family survives on 20k ^
My cousin has been a teacher for 4 years. So if your going from 18k > 30k+. That doesn't sound to bad to me.

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 01 September 2009 - 23:12.

[Libains]

Ion Cannon!, on 2 Sep 2009, 0:10, said:

My family survives on 20k ^
My cousin has been a teacher for 4 years. So if your going from 18k > 30k+. That doesn't sound to bad to me.

Your dad also gets a free house, teachers have to survive on the property ladder too

And it's not so much that the initial rise is bad, but from there.. well you're going to be hard pushed to break into the next salary bracket - all you have available to you are 'Head Teacher', 'Examiner' and a few other things. You can push your way to the forefront very quickly, and be stuck there on mediocre pay for the rest of your life - there is little room to maneuver your career forwards, and living on £30k a year, for the rest of your life, is going to be a tough call for a lot of people.

[Ion Cannon!]

AJ, on 2 Sep 2009, 0:15, said:

Ion Cannon!, on 2 Sep 2009, 0:10, said:

My family survives on 20k ^
My cousin has been a teacher for 4 years. So if your going from 18k > 30k+. That doesn't sound to bad to me.

Your dad also gets a free house, teachers have to survive on the property ladder too

And it's not so much that the initial rise is bad, but from there.. well you're going to be hard pushed to break into the next salary bracket - all you have available to you are 'Head Teacher', 'Examiner' and a few other things. You can push your way to the forefront very quickly, and be stuck there on mediocre pay for the rest of your life - there is little room to maneuver your career forwards, and living on £30k a year, for the rest of your life, is going to be a tough call for a lot of people.

I'll agree with you there. Teachers aren't paid enough, and they wonder why the amount of teaching graduates falls every year..

[Chyros]

Teachers are having difficulty because education systems are "modernised" into more self-study and applicability of the teachings, which most students just don't give a flying fuck about. In other words, the students are motivated to get lazy and the teachings are not useful. That's about it.

On teachers' pay: they don't make very much, but not that little either, especially if you consider the high amount of free time they get (they are free when their students are). Nonetheless, the pay is one of the things that make me somewhat shy away from teaching even though it's what I'm good at and would like to do perhaps.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Quote

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach

A quote that essentially paints teaching as a last resort job. One could surmise this by taking a peek at a teacher's salary. My knowledge about teaching positions in the UK and abroad is a fat wad of nill, but I do happen to know for a fact that teachers in the US are making ends meet, but are straining to do so. That said, those who go into teaching aren't doing it for the money (which in actuality, although money is important for day-to-day tasks, one could do without, and not doing something for the money is a proper reason). It takes a special breed of person to become a teacher, and an even rarer breed among them to teach effectively. The only "teachers" that make any money worth bragging about is college professors (again, this is based on my limited knowledge of the education system and is specific to the US). Professors don't really "teach" though, but it does depend on which college and which professor you have for a given class. Some are more willing to take the time with a student to explain something and some are better at conveying facts and methods.

I don't believe the issue, if you could call it that, is with the teachers (one could also make up an argument that teachers are involved in the issue because they are part of the system), but rather lies within the system itself. Students are being spoon-fed courses and are being left to their own devices. Every one learns on a different scale and at different rates. The system has a teacher conduct a class one way, but half the class may not retain the necessary information because of the way the material is being presented. In this respect, it is up to the teachers to make the adjustment(s) necessary to compensate for those who learn in a different manner. The education system is being dumbed down, year by year. In an effort to make things simpler, the static effect is that those things being taught are condensed to a basic sense. As an example, please entertain the following: "WWII: Germany starts the war, Allies fight back, Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, US joins, WWII ends 1945." In the most extreme case, this is what's happening, or will eventually happen. This "dumbing" down effect can be seen in such areas as video games, where the games of today are more focused on glossy pixels and fancy renders, rather than game play (yes, I'm aware a rebuttal argument can be made for certain games out there, but that is not my point). So while the kids of today are busy learning (or not learning, depending on one's view), things that shouldn't be simplified are, and the generations of tomorrow are paying for it.

[Golan]

Chyros, on 2 Sep 2009, 1:11, said:

especially if you consider the high amount of free time they get (they are free when their students are).

No, they aren't. This is one of the major misconceptions I hear over and over again about teachers. With one of my parents being a teacher here in germany and several of my friends getting ready for the job, I can assure you that the standard work day for a teacher doesn't end when his/her schedule says so. There's tons of bureaucracy involved in the job, several hours per day required to simply prepare the lessons, preparing and correcting exams, extracurricular activities and generally being the butt-monkey for EVERYTHING that hits the fan.
If you should ever be living in the same household with a teacher, the first time the phone rings at 10 pm on a Saturday night and there's some parent on the line that for the love of god refuses to understand that this isn't the adequate time for a consultation even after telling them for 5 fucking minutes, you'll understand that while a teacher leaves his workplace early, this doesn't mean that work is over.

By the way, would you (generally speaking) mind not limiting topics to focusing on the UK only?

€dit

Edited by Golan, 02 September 2009 - 15:07.

[Chyros]

Golan, on 2 Sep 2009, 11:02, said:

Chyros, on 2 Sep 2009, 1:11, said:

especially if you consider the high amount of free time they get (they are free when their students are).

No, they aren't. This is one of the major misconceptions I hear over and over again about teachers. With one of my parents being a teacher here in germany and several of my friends getting ready for the job, I can assure you that the standard work day for a teacher doesn't end when his/her schedule says so. There's tons of bureaucracy involved in the job, several hours per day required to simply prepare the lessons, preparing and correcting exams, extracurricular activities and generally being the butt-monkey for EVERYTHING that hits the fan.
If you should ever be living in the same household with a teacher, the first time the phone rings at 10 pm on a Saturday night and there's some parent on the line that for the love of god refuses to understand that this isn't the adequate time for a consultation even after telling them for 5 fucking minutes, you'll understand that while a teacher leaves his workplace early, this doesn't mean that work is over.

No I don't mean on a per-day basis, I mean they are free in their students' holidays which is a LOT more than most jobs have.

[TehKiller]

Actually neither are they free then as they have to deal with those who failed classes and organise for the next year...basically they get like a month off for the summer and a couple of weeks during winter/spring time

[Wizard]

TehKiller, on 2 Sep 2009, 12:56, said:

Actually neither are they free then as they have to deal with those who failed classes and organise for the next year...basically they get like a month off for the summer and a couple of weeks during winter/spring time

That's very country, school grade and teacher specific.

One friend of mine spends every single week of her school holiday travelling. In the UK there are.... erm.... roughly 12 weeks of holiday iirc, 6 at summer, 2 between terms, and 1 half way through each term. While on the other hand I have a friend who spends a great deal of his time planning lessons and marking submissions. Both teach in comprehensives (11-16 yo).

[Ion Cannon!]

Golan, on 2 Sep 2009, 10:02, said:

By the way, would you (generally speaking) mind making topics not focused on the UK?

Dauth probably has little information or experience of other education systems, they may differ largely from the UK system. Would be kind of pointless starting a discussion he doesn't have experience or knowledge of. If you want to make non UK focused topics, do it yourself.

[Ixonoclast]

I wouldn't mind being a teacher in my field...

Talk a bit about post-Renaissance art, show some pictures from the museum, judge some work by the students, attend some gallery openings... and send EA the concept art for Red Alert 6...

But really, it's just that it isn't really appealing to be a teacher in non-adult teaching. We've all been teenagers in school, so we all know what dicks teenagers are.

Edited by Ixonoclast, 02 September 2009 - 19:40.