35 replies to this topic

[TheDR]

Reasons against spawn killing:
It's not very fun for the person who is effected by it.
It's a "cheap kill"
It could mean your not helping with the objective.

Reasons for spawn killing:
Just change your class to counter it.
It's a legitimate strategy.
Why haven't they put things in the game to stop it from happening?

If people say no, then you will be warned once and if you do it again you will be kicked from the server. If people say yes, then we will carry on with what we have now.

Please post your opinion on the situation rather than just voting in the poll, thanks.

Edited by TheDR, 07 February 2010 - 12:17.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Quite honestly, it is a cheap tactic, however "legal" or "legitimate" it may be. The person being spawn camped has very little to no chance of doing anything about the situation. In many cases, there's only one exit to the spawn, meaning that the person exiting has no other alternative but to go through that one door.

[CJ]

I wonder how you're gonna ban Codecat from the server if the No wins

Edited by Argetlam, 06 February 2010 - 21:44.

[Rich19]

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:14, said:

Why haven't they put things in the game to stop it from happening?

Er, sorry but they have. You spawn in a room which the enemy cannot enter, inside which you are completely safe from enemy fire until you choose to open the door. In addition, this room contains an object which can completely heal you and restock your ammo with no cooldown time. You may also stand near to the door so that it opens, and shoot at the enemy from this room. I think that in order to stop "spawnkilling" in tf2, you'd essentially have to ban people hiding around corners or behind doors.

Edited by Rich19, 06 February 2010 - 21:53.

[TheDR]

Rich19, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:53, said:

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:14, said:

Why haven't they put things in the game to stop it from happening?

Er, sorry but they have. You spawn in a room which the enemy cannot enter, inside which you are completely safe from enemy fire until you choose to open the door. In addition, this room contains an object which can completely heal you and restock your ammo with no cooldown time. You may also stand near to the door so that it opens, and shoot at the enemy from this room. I think that in order to stop "spawnkilling" in tf2, you'd essentially have to ban people hiding around corners or behind doors.

I know they have put spawn rooms, but i mean the sense of walking out of the spawn door and dieing, not the sense of spawning to be killed straight away. Hiding around corners is fine, but hiding by the spawn door is boring for the person trying to play the game, when we are just playing for fun, you expect to have some fun and not just get stuck spawning and dieing and spawning and dieing.

[Rich19]

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 22:08, said:

Rich19, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:53, said:

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:14, said:

Why haven't they put things in the game to stop it from happening?

Er, sorry but they have. You spawn in a room which the enemy cannot enter, inside which you are completely safe from enemy fire until you choose to open the door. In addition, this room contains an object which can completely heal you and restock your ammo with no cooldown time. You may also stand near to the door so that it opens, and shoot at the enemy from this room. I think that in order to stop "spawnkilling" in tf2, you'd essentially have to ban people hiding around corners or behind doors.

I know they have put spawn rooms, but i mean the sense of walking out of the spawn door and dieing, not the sense of spawning to be killed straight away. Hiding around corners is fine, but hiding by the spawn door is boring for the person trying to play the game, when we are just playing for fun, you expect to have some fun and not just get stuck spawning and dieing and spawning and dieing.

How is hiding behind the spawn door any different from hiding behind any other door? I don't necessarily agree that it's boring for the people playing, since the people who are spawning are at so much of an advantage in this situation.

Another problem I have with rules made in the name of fun is that they are often impractical. I find playing on a server where the enemy snipers are of a certain skill level rather dull, since they can set up shop on the other side of the map and start racking up kills, and there is very little you can do about it. But does that mean you ban snipers? Or perhaps ban people who are better than you? In this case, where do you draw the line between spawn killing and regular killing? It's a rule that can be very easily abused, and it can lead to people camping in and around the spawn area which makes for a boring game.

I think a far better system would be to merely play, as you say, for fun. That means that if you find someone's style of play annoying, you politely ask them to stop, and if you are asked to stop, to stop (since we are a group of friends playing as opposed to randomers, this ought to work). It does not mean getting into a huge argument which the rest of us who are trying to play have to sit through (Doc, Code, I'm looking at both of you). I have a horrible feeling that the creation of arbitrary rules will merely lead to more and even bigger arguments over the interpretation of those rules, and that is something I would like to avoid at all costs. This one argument over spawn killing has already spilled over from the TF2 server onto the forum, and I think that if you add punishments like warning and kickings into the mix, things can only get worse. Now, can we put the whole issue behind us?

Edited by Rich19, 06 February 2010 - 22:40.

[Pav:3d]

Spawn killing, however cheap and irritating, should be allowed. Like camping, its gay, but a legitimate strategy

[CodeCat]

You also have to distinguish between spawn killing and spawn camping. Spawn killing is killing someone who just came out of the spawn. Spawn camping is returning to your hiding place after the first kill, to wait for the next one, essentially preventing anyone from leaving the spawn safely.

There is nothing wrong with spawnkilling, since it is part of the game and a valid tactic for some classes. An argument I've often heard is that there is no reason to be near the spawn since it's 'nowhere near the objective'. But the goal is to win the map, and one way of achieving that is to deny the enemy team access to the objective. No sane player would happily allow the enemy to get near the point they're trying to cap. Furthermore, part of the play style of some classes, such as the spy or scout, is picking people off when they are alone and vulnerable. A scout would be near useless if you couldn't shoot anyone until they were near the front line, since that defeats the purpose of the class as a hit-and-run class. Similarly, the paranoia that a spy can cause with one or more sequential spawnkills is what is part of the effectiveness of the spy class, since his job is to cause disruption and to distract people from their 'real' target.

Spawn camping is staying at the spawn, waiting for players to exit the spawn doors for the sole purpose of preventing people from exiting the spawn at all. It is not spawn camping if the enemy is given a reasonable opportunity to step out and survey the area outside the spawn before an attack. So it would be spawncamping to shoot players in the head with a sniper the moment the door opens, and it would also be spawncamping to mine the exit with sticky bombs to detonate them the moment someone comes out. However, the most important aspect of spawn camping is the camping part; i.e. someone has to be waiting purposefully for someone to come out, and not do anything else. If someone makes a heat-of-the-moment kill on someone who is just exiting the spawn, i.e. a pyro doing a raid of the BLU spawn on Goldrush 2/3, then it's not camping, since the pyro isn't waiting for people to come out, he only killed someone who was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

'Wrong place at the wrong time' is the basic defining point between spawnkilling and spawncamping. If someone who was killed was at the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. they would have survived by coming out a few seconds later, then it is not spawn camping. Because in that case whoever was out for the kill was not waiting until someone comes out. Rather, they were just making kills near the spawn. People on the FS server frequently do not make this distinction, and term any kill made sort of near the spawn as spawncamping (I'm not naming anyone), but it is crucial to understand the difference because they occur with very different motives and under very different circumstances.

I am definitely against spawncamping, as it leaves the other team in a bottleneck position where their opponents can easily take them out, which is not fair. I am not against spawn killing however, since as people have said, there is always a safe place to fall back to until the threat has passed. If the threat does not pass and instead waits at the spawn then it's spawncamping. So if you get killed at the spawn, then tough luck, better luck next time. If you repeatedly get killed by the same person, then maybe try actually killing that person! But if that person is waiting at the spawn exit door for kills, then it's spawncamping and they should stop or be kicked. So it's not so much the kills themselves that make the difference, it's the motives of the killer and their actions before and after the kill that do.

Edited by CodeCat, 06 February 2010 - 23:07.

[TheDR]

Rich19, on 6 Feb 2010, 22:38, said:

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 22:08, said:

Rich19, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:53, said:

TheDR, on 6 Feb 2010, 21:14, said:

Why haven't they put things in the game to stop it from happening?

Er, sorry but they have. You spawn in a room which the enemy cannot enter, inside which you are completely safe from enemy fire until you choose to open the door. In addition, this room contains an object which can completely heal you and restock your ammo with no cooldown time. You may also stand near to the door so that it opens, and shoot at the enemy from this room. I think that in order to stop "spawnkilling" in tf2, you'd essentially have to ban people hiding around corners or behind doors.

I know they have put spawn rooms, but i mean the sense of walking out of the spawn door and dieing, not the sense of spawning to be killed straight away. Hiding around corners is fine, but hiding by the spawn door is boring for the person trying to play the game, when we are just playing for fun, you expect to have some fun and not just get stuck spawning and dieing and spawning and dieing.

How is hiding behind the spawn door any different from hiding behind any other door? I don't necessarily agree that it's boring for the people playing, since the people who are spawning are at so much of an advantage in this situation.

Another problem I have with rules made in the name of fun is that they are often impractical. I find playing on a server where the enemy snipers are of a certain skill level rather dull, since they can set up shop on the other side of the map and start racking up kills, and there is very little you can do about it. But does that mean you ban snipers? Or perhaps ban people who are better than you? In this case, where do you draw the line between spawn killing and regular killing? It's a rule that can be very easily abused, and it can lead to people camping in and around the spawn area which makes for a boring game.

I think a far better system would be to merely play, as you say, for fun. That means that if you find someone's style of play annoying, you politely ask them to stop, and if you are asked to stop, to stop (since we are a group of friends playing as opposed to randomers, this ought to work). It does not mean getting into a huge argument which the rest of us who are trying to play have to sit through (Doc, Code, I'm looking at both of you). I have a horrible feeling that the creation of arbitrary rules will merely lead to more and even bigger arguments over the interpretation of those rules, and that is something I would like to avoid at all costs. This one argument over spawn killing has already spilled over from the TF2 server onto the forum, and I think that if you add punishments like warning and kickings into the mix, things can only get worse. Now, can we put the whole issue behind us?

I'm sorry if my moaning has annoyed you, it was never meant for that.
I just want for everyone playing in the game to have fun, it sucks to have a game where you don't play you just constantly spawn. I see your points and it would never be an perfect system, but it just might make someone stop and think twice rather than going in for that "easy kill".

[Destiny]

As CodeCat said, nothing left for me to say Perhaps the thread should be renamed?

[deltaepsilon]

Setting up stickies and creating human fireworks is hilarious.

[Liten]

Since this is about Spawnkilling, not Spawncamping, and CodeCat just explained the differences between them, I don't see why we shouldn't allow it.

[TheDR]

CodeCat, on 6 Feb 2010, 23:03, said:

You also have to distinguish between spawn killing and spawn camping. Spawn killing is killing someone who just came out of the spawn. Spawn camping is returning to your hiding place after the first kill, to wait for the next one, essentially preventing anyone from leaving the spawn safely.

Yes, i know this, the thread has been created to stop spawn killing.

CodeCat, on 6 Feb 2010, 23:03, said:

There is nothing wrong with spawnkilling, since it is part of the game and a valid tactic for some classes. An argument I've often heard is that there is no reason to be near the spawn since it's 'nowhere near the objective'. But the goal is to win the map, and one way of achieving that is to deny the enemy team access to the objective. No sane player would happily allow the enemy to get near the point they're trying to cap. Furthermore, part of the play style of some classes, such as the spy or scout, is picking people off when they are alone and vulnerable. A scout would be near useless if you couldn't shoot anyone until they were near the front line, since that defeats the purpose of the class as a hit-and-run class. Similarly, the paranoia that a spy can cause with one or more sequential spawnkills is what is part of the effectiveness of the spy class, since his job is to cause disruption and to distract people from their 'real' target.

No, the objective of the map is to capture enemy points, not disallow the other team from capturing. If your whole team was stopping the enemy from capturing no one would ever win. I agree, scouts and spys do need to attack at people who are alone and vulnerable, but there are other easy places to attack like that, not just the spawn door. Spawn killing is a tactic which isn't any fun at all for the person on the other end of it. If it was happened say once a match, then sure, no one would give a damn, but when its happening constantly its not fun for anyone, you end up playing a game of spawning and never reaching your destination. In a game of friends, these kind of horrible tactics just shouldn't be used. You can do tatics which have the same result but they don't end up annoying the hell out of people.

CodeCat, on 6 Feb 2010, 23:03, said:

'Wrong place at the wrong time' is the basic defining point between spawnkilling and spawncamping. If someone who was killed was at the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. they would have survived by coming out a few seconds later, then it is not spawn camping. Because in that case whoever was out for the kill was not waiting until someone comes out. Rather, they were just making kills near the spawn. People on the FS server frequently do not make this distinction, and term any kill made sort of near the spawn as spawncamping (I'm not naming anyone), but it is crucial to understand the difference because they occur with very different motives and under very different circumstances.

Ok, tell me if the person dieing at the spawn cares that you wouldn't of killed them a few seconds earlier? From there point of view the tactic seems exactly the same. If you die on the battlefield by a spy, scout, pyro ect. you feel it was a fair fight and that they bested you in, if you walk out of your spawn and die, you feel cheated as you couldn't of done anything to prevent it.
Also, i have seen you personally at the spawn as a heavy on goldrush part 1, you were an attacker. How do you explain 'Wrong place at the wrong time' while using a heavy? You were sitting by the spawn and you killed a few people as they walked past.

CodeCat, on 6 Feb 2010, 23:03, said:

I am definitely against spawncamping, as it leaves the other team in a bottleneck position where their opponents can easily take them out, which is not fair. I am not against spawn killing however, since as people have said, there is always a safe place to fall back to until the threat has passed. If the threat does not pass and instead waits at the spawn then it's spawncamping. So if you get killed at the spawn, then tough luck, better luck next time. If you repeatedly get killed by the same person, then maybe try actually killing that person! But if that person is waiting at the spawn exit door for kills, then it's spawncamping and they should stop or be kicked. So it's not so much the kills themselves that make the difference, it's the motives of the killer and their actions before and after the kill that do.

I'm not complaing that spawn killing keeps loosing the game for people, I'm complaining that spawnkilling isn't fun for the person effected by it. Why bother doing a tactic which doesn't allow a person to play the game at all, rather they are stuck in some sort of spawn limbo.

The reasons a defender should be at the enemy spawn is to kill teleport entrances, otherwise on say, a map like dustbowl, you end up loosing the game for your team because you wanted a bunch of cheap kills to "up your score" rather than actually defending the point.

So here are my main points:

• Spawn killing might as well be the same as spawn camping to the person who is effected by it.
  
• Its a tactic which just isn't needed in a group of friends.
  
• People abuse it all the time which creates games where the whole other team dies every-time they spawn.
  
• Its easy to stop doing it, just don't kill people walking out of the spawn doors.
  
• Being stuck in a spawn limbo for doube the spawn time (if you die right after spawning, its like you have spawned twice).
  
• You can loose the game for your team if the other team spy caps or sneaks past your "spawn killing".

[CJ]

Oh wait, I didn't notice that is about Spawn Killing when I voted, I thought you were talking about camping.
How can I change my vote now ? I'm not against Spawn Killing, heck I even do it a lot when I'm a spy and I'm forced to fall back to the enemy spawn to avoid the spychecking D:

[TheDR]

Argetlam, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:02, said:

Oh wait, I didn't notice that is about Spawn Killing when I voted, I thought you were talking about camping.
How can I change my vote now ? I'm not against Spawn Killing, heck I even do it a lot when I'm a spy and I'm forced to fall back to the enemy spawn to avoid the spychecking D:

Yeah, i changed it for you.

[Emerald]

First of all. Since I usually play Medic I'm used to being the one who everyone goes after first. So dying doesn't really bother me that much anymore. Pretty much anyone I meet can kill me, if I don't have a reliable teammate with me. Being a support class and not being able to defend yourself alone has gotten me used to being picked on. Getting killed, anywhere, anytime is pretty much what I have to get used to. (Btw, I still have more hours on Soldier than on Medic)
On the FS and the SetUp server there hasn't occured any extreme spawn killing or camping as far as I remember. And because we're all friends we have been able to ask for them to stop. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and this has lead us into the forums for a discussion.

Quote

You also have to distinguish between spawn killing and spawn camping. Spawn killing is killing someone who just came out of the spawn. Spawn camping is returning to your hiding place after the first kill, to wait for the next one, essentially preventing anyone from leaving the spawn safely.
There is nothing wrong with spawnkilling, since it is part of the game and a valid tactic for some classes. An argument I've often heard is that there is no reason to be near the spawn since it's 'nowhere near the objective'. But the goal is to win the map, and one way of achieving that is to deny the enemy team access to the objective. No sane player would happily allow the enemy to get near the point they're trying to cap. Furthermore, part of the play style of some classes, such as the spy or scout, is picking people off when they are alone and vulnerable. A scout would be near useless if you couldn't shoot anyone until they were near the front line, since that defeats the purpose of the class as a hit-and-run class. Similarly, the paranoia that a spy can cause with one or more sequential spawnkills is what is part of the effectiveness of the spy class, since his job is to cause disruption and to distract people from their 'real' target.

One thing I don't understand is you say that spawn killing and spawn camping are two different things. That spawn killing is what happens when people are at the wrong place at the wrong time. But you are also saying that spawn killing is a valid strategy for some classes like the Scout and the Spy. Because their job is to pick off enemies when they are weak and alone. But if it's a strategy to hang around the spawn, isn't that quite the same as spawn _camping_?

I cannot agree with the definition you present. It's either a regular kill or spawn camping. If you just happen to be outside the other team's spawn (all depends on what map you're on) and have to defend yourself then it's just a regular kill. Add "spawn" to it if you wish, because of the location, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't right of the person to get that kill.

If it is one's plan and strategy to keep the enemy from moving towards the objective, in other words prevent them from getting out of the spawn area, then it must be spawn camping, right?
And like The DR said, there are more places to kill alone and vulnerable enemies.

--

This is _my opinion_ on the different game modes (the ones we play regulary):

Payload: Let's say you're on the defending team. Your main objective is to stop the other team from pushing the cart. And if the cart has gone quite a long way then you have no business in the spawn unless you followed someone there who is fleeing and has low health. Let's say you kill the fleeing guy, and you're at the spawn. Someone exits the spawn. Is it okay to kill him? Yes. You have to defend yourself. Then you can get out of there.
If you're on the attacking team you only go near the spawn if there is a sentry or teleporter there. Your goal is to push the cart anyway. And I don't think I need to mention that the cart is really close to the defending's spawnroom right at the end and that doesn't count as spawn camping. I say, if at the cart, you kill what you see. Regardless of where it is. You have to defend yourself.

Capture the Flag: Can't really speak generally about these maps since they don't all look alike. Some maps have the intelligence separate from the spawn room somehow, or atleast have two routes. But atleast one of those routes will be near the spawn and cause you to meet with enemies coming out (like the right passage on Turbine). I think that you should be able to choose what route you go, and you're free to kill whoever you see. And if we take Turbine for example it's much easier for the spawning people to kill the enemies going to the intell, so there should be no problem there. There isn't really no point hanging around the spawn on any of these maps in my opinion.

Control Point:
- Standard (Usually 5 points):Both teams fight over the points. This is usually a bit chaotic, points being captured all over the map pretty much. These maps are pretty big. I think there is no real reason to hang around the other team's spawn if you don't have the points near it captured or on the way to being captured. Or like said before, you're chasing someone to end a battle. See Payload.

- Attack/Defend (BLU captures and RED defends): You defend the points. Same as Payload pretty much.

King of the Hill: You fight for the one point. Don't hang around the spawn at all unless... you're killing off a fleeing enemy. Gets a little repetetive right?

--

Lastly I would like to repeat that I don't take this game super seriously and I still have a nice time playing with you. I just think that this is something that needs discussing in order to avoid conflicts in the future. Personally I am more annoyed by my team being 80% snipers. But that is another discussion.

[CodeCat]

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

No, the objective of the map is to capture enemy points, not disallow the other team from capturing. If your whole team was stopping the enemy from capturing no one would ever win.

Are you honestly saying we should get rid of... red team?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

Ok, tell me if the person dieing at the spawn cares that you wouldn't of killed them a few seconds earlier? From there point of view the tactic seems exactly the same. If you die on the battlefield by a spy, scout, pyro ect. you feel it was a fair fight and that they bested you in, if you walk out of your spawn and die, you feel cheated as you couldn't of done anything to prevent it.

How is being spawnkilled not preventable? Listen to what's going on around the spawn, and go out when it's safe. If you run out of the spawn head on into a firefight it's your own fault.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

Also, i have seen you personally at the spawn as a heavy on goldrush part 1, you were an attacker. How do you explain 'Wrong place at the wrong time' while using a heavy? You were sitting by the spawn and you killed a few people as they walked past.

There are some things you haven't mentioned though. What did I do after I killed everyone in sight? Where was I standing?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

I'm not complaing that spawn killing keeps loosing the game for people, I'm complaining that spawnkilling isn't fun for the person effected by it. Why bother doing a tactic which doesn't allow a person to play the game at all, rather they are stuck in some sort of spawn limbo.

If you keep getting killed near the spawn, then you should've paid more attention when you walked out from the spawn. If there is no way to safely get out of the spawn no matter what you do, then it's spawncamping and hence not the issue here.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

The reasons a defender should be at the enemy spawn is to kill teleport entrances, otherwise on say, a map like dustbowl, you end up loosing the game for your team because you wanted a bunch of cheap kills to "up your score" rather than actually defending the point.

Killing people is defending the point, because it prevents those people from capping. If you let them get close enough to the point that they are actually able to get on the point, when you had a chance to take them down earlier, then you're just not playing right and need to reconsider your tactics.

So here are my main points:

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Spawn killing might as well be the same as spawn camping to the person who is effected by it.

Which brings us back to the point that the difference is all about what the attacker is doing, not the one being killed.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Its a tactic which just isn't needed in a group of friends.

If you look at it that way, why try to kill each other at all? Why not have a sandwich party?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• People abuse it all the time which creates games where the whole other team dies every-time they spawn.

That's when you type 'scramble'.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Its easy to stop doing it, just don't kill people walking out of the spawn doors.

And instead let them kill me? No thanks. If I see someone they get shot at, period.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Being stuck in a spawn limbo for doube the spawn time (if you die right after spawning, its like you have spawned twice).

It happens to everyone, including me, so I don't see why this is worth a special mention.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• You can loose the game for your team if the other team spy caps or sneaks past your "spawn killing".

Which only works in your team's favour if you'be been spawnkilled. I don't see the point.

[ΓΛPTΘΓ]

Getting out of the spawn means you are out of the safety of the spawn. If someone is firing INTO the spawn, that is unacceptable, but killing anyone leaving it is totally valid. Unless for example a heavy & medic pair staying outside the enemy spawn door with minigun spin up just camping there is spawn CAMPING and should not be allowed. Or demoman planted sticky on their spawn door, it counts as spawn camping. But a scout passing by is not.

The main point its, when you step out the spawn, you are no longer safe. No matter how close you are to the spawn, it is not longer safe.

Another thing is, USE the weapons locker, when you are hit right outside your spawn, don't just whine. Go back, refill your health, use a different exit or pair up with team mates.

[CodeCat]

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

One thing I don't understand is you say that spawn killing and spawn camping are two different things. That spawn killing is what happens when people are at the wrong place at the wrong time. But you are also saying that spawn killing is a valid strategy for some classes like the Scout and the Spy. Because their job is to pick off enemies when they are weak and alone. But if it's a strategy to hang around the spawn, isn't that quite the same as spawn _camping_?

Around the spawn isn't quite the same as right around the corner. A spawncamper typically positions themselves to strike and make the kill the moment the spawn door opens or the moment someone sets their first step outside the spawn door. A scout doesn't have enough raw firepower to hit get instant kills in that way unless they're already in your face to begin with, and a spy has to wait for people to pass by before he can get a backstab.

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

I cannot agree with the definition you present. It's either a regular kill or spawn camping. If you just happen to be outside the other team's spawn (all depends on what map you're on) and have to defend yourself then it's just a regular kill. Add "spawn" to it if you wish, because of the location, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't right of the person to get that kill.

That was part of the point I was trying to make.

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

Payload: Let's say you're on the defending team. Your main objective is to stop the other team from pushing the cart. And if the cart has gone quite a long way then you have no business in the spawn unless you followed someone there who is fleeing and has low health. Let's say you kill the fleeing guy, and you're at the spawn. Someone exits the spawn. Is it okay to kill him? Yes. You have to defend yourself. Then you can get out of there.
If you're on the attacking team you only go near the spawn if there is a sentry or teleporter there. Your goal is to push the cart anyway. And I don't think I need to mention that the cart is really close to the defending's spawnroom right at the end and that doesn't count as spawn camping. I say, if at the cart, you kill what you see. Regardless of where it is. You have to defend yourself.

Another possibility is if you are specifically trying to get to the teleporters. Destroying a teleporter entrance has a serious tactical advantage for any team, especially defending, so it is not unreasonable to want to get to the spawn for that alone.

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

Capture the Flag: Can't really speak generally about these maps since they don't all look alike. Some maps have the intelligence separate from the spawn room somehow, or atleast have two routes. But atleast one of those routes will be near the spawn and cause you to meet with enemies coming out (like the right passage on Turbine). I think that you should be able to choose what route you go, and you're free to kill whoever you see. And if we take Turbine for example it's much easier for the spawning people to kill the enemies going to the intell, so there should be no problem there. There isn't really no point hanging around the spawn on any of these maps in my opinion.

On CTF maps, the spawn area, and the enemy base in general, is a 'danger zone' compared to other map types. You are very easy to kill by the enemy team, because unlike on other maps, it is very hard to wipe out the entire enemy team on a CTF map because of how people tend to spread out throughout their base and patrol specific areas. Unlike most other maps also, the spawn area on CTF maps is generally very close to the 'action' and is placed more in the middle rather than at the far end of the map. This makes spawn camping much less viable because there is a high chance of having an enemy see you and take you down, so even if you do spawncamp it would never be hard for the enemy team to stop you.

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

Control Point:
- Standard (Usually 5 points):Both teams fight over the points. This is usually a bit chaotic, points being captured all over the map pretty much. These maps are pretty big. I think there is no real reason to hang around the other team's spawn if you don't have the points near it captured or on the way to being captured. Or like said before, you're chasing someone to end a battle. See Payload.

- Attack/Defend (BLU captures and RED defends): You defend the points. Same as Payload pretty much.

Agreed. On maps like granary you also have to consider that it's impossible to stand on the final point without being immediately shot at by people exiting the spawn. So if you are trying to get a quick spy/scout/whatever cap, then it is definitely a viable tactic to stand on the final point even when it is not yet capturable, but you expect the previous to be captured soon.

Emerald, on 7 Feb 2010, 14:56, said:

King of the Hill: You fight for the one point. Don't hang around the spawn at all unless... you're killing off a fleeing enemy. Gets a little repetetive right?

On nucleus there is also the possibility that snipers are standing right next to the spawn and are shooting at people coming from the ENEMY spawn. Essentially, in that map it's possible for spawncampers to kill enemy spawncampers. So in that map I imagine it's quite necessary for other classes to be able to go to the enemy spawn as part of a regular patrol, and get rid of any snipers or engineers that are hanging around.

[TheDR]

CodeCat, on 7 Feb 2010, 16:19, said:

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

No, the objective of the map is to capture enemy points, not disallow the other team from capturing. If your whole team was stopping the enemy from capturing no one would ever win.

Are you honestly saying we should get rid of... red team?

I said nothing of the sort, what are you on about?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

Ok, tell me if the person dieing at the spawn cares that you wouldn't of killed them a few seconds earlier? From there point of view the tactic seems exactly the same. If you die on the battlefield by a spy, scout, pyro ect. you feel it was a fair fight and that they bested you in, if you walk out of your spawn and die, you feel cheated as you couldn't of done anything to prevent it.

How is being spawnkilled not preventable? Listen to what's going on around the spawn, and go out when it's safe. If you run out of the spawn head on into a firefight it's your own fault.

What? Listen to whats going on, some people prefer to play the game rather than listing to footsteps.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

Also, i have seen you personally at the spawn as a heavy on goldrush part 1, you were an attacker. How do you explain 'Wrong place at the wrong time' while using a heavy? You were sitting by the spawn and you killed a few people as they walked past.

There are some things you haven't mentioned though. What did I do after I killed everyone in sight? Where was I standing?

You were hiding waiting for people to walk out of the spawn, then you ate a sandvich and then you killed some more people.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

I'm not complaing that spawn killing keeps loosing the game for people, I'm complaining that spawnkilling isn't fun for the person effected by it. Why bother doing a tactic which doesn't allow a person to play the game at all, rather they are stuck in some sort of spawn limbo.

If you keep getting killed near the spawn, then you should've paid more attention when you walked out from the spawn. If there is no way to safely get out of the spawn no matter what you do, then it's spawncamping and hence not the issue here.

I'd be fine if it was only happening a few times per a game, but you are always spawn killing people all the time.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

The reasons a defender should be at the enemy spawn is to kill teleport entrances, otherwise on say, a map like dustbowl, you end up loosing the game for your team because you wanted a bunch of cheap kills to "up your score" rather than actually defending the point.

Killing people is defending the point, because it prevents those people from capping. If you let them get close enough to the point that they are actually able to get on the point, when you had a chance to take them down earlier, then you're just not playing right and need to reconsider your tactics.

But if someone spy caps past you (which i have seen happen a lot) then you loose the game.

So here are my main points:

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Spawn killing might as well be the same as spawn camping to the person who is effected by it.

Which brings us back to the point that the difference is all about what the attacker is doing, not the one being killed.

But why does it matter if the attacker feels like they are spawn killing and not spawn camping if it produces the same results?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Its a tactic which just isn't needed in a group of friends.

If you look at it that way, why try to kill each other at all? Why not have a sandwich party?

Have you ever considered that using lame tactics on friends repeatedly isn't the best way to keep friends?

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• People abuse it all the time which creates games where the whole other team dies every-time they spawn.

That's when you type 'scramble'.

I didn't say the teams were unbalanced, both teams could have a guy spawnkilling and scramble would do nothing.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Its easy to stop doing it, just don't kill people walking out of the spawn doors.

And instead let them kill me? No thanks. If I see someone they get shot at, period.

No, just don't go near the spawn doors, period. I walk away from loads of people if i see they have just spawned, do you know why? Its because i consider that playing with good friends and dieing occasionally as a better objective than just winning the game, ever thought that games are for fun and not just for winning? Especially on game days.

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• Being stuck in a spawn limbo for doube the spawn time (if you die right after spawning, its like you have spawned twice).

It happens to everyone, including me, so I don't see why this is worth a special mention.

Because its easy to stop...

TheDR, on 7 Feb 2010, 12:48, said:

• You can loose the game for your team if the other team spy caps or sneaks past your "spawn killing".

Which only works in your team's favour if you'be been spawnkilled. I don't see the point.

Because i don't play to win, i play to have fun.

ΓΛPΤΘΓ, on 7 Feb 2010, 16:34, said:

Getting out of the spawn means you are out of the safety of the spawn. If someone is firing INTO the spawn, that is unacceptable, but killing anyone leaving it is totally valid. Unless for example a heavy & medic pair staying outside the enemy spawn door with minigun spin up just camping there is spawn CAMPING and should not be allowed. Or demoman planted sticky on their spawn door, it counts as spawn camping. But a scout passing by is not.

The main point its, when you step out the spawn, you are no longer safe. No matter how close you are to the spawn, it is not longer safe.

Another thing is, USE the weapons locker, when you are hit right outside your spawn, don't just whine. Go back, refill your health, use a different exit or pair up with team mates.

I'm normally fine with it, but its been happening too much that it has ruined the game for some people.

Spawn killing is fine if it doesn't happen often, but it must be happening a lot considering how much i hear people moan about it. This is why we need to reduce it.

[ΓΛPTΘΓ]

I am totally for allowing spawn killing, or even light spawn camping (Not 3 level sentrys outside spawn doors). In TF2, you are in SO MUCH advantage when you are need your spawn, but many people don't seems to use it. Its not like every kill is a instant kill when you are outside the spawn door, just go back to use the lockers, not hard. And people needs to realise once they open that spawn gate, you are no longer safe, prepare to be killed any moment.

@ Doc of the previous post: Competitive play doesn't mean its boring, I think I am rather competitive, and won't back down until killed. And the comment about not listening to surrounding is kinda null, if you are not aware of your surroundings you just asking to get killed. I know many people who play for fun, but there is still many that play for winning, me included.

Edited by ΓΛPΤΘΓ, 07 February 2010 - 16:51.

[Destiny]

Spawnkilling is a everyday sight on 2fort. Spawncamping is much harder, but it actually just depends on the map.

It's logical to shoot when you see red/blue, rather than let them shoot you instead. If they survive and go to refill and you're waiting outside the spawn to try to kill them, then you're spawncamping. On payload maps there's more of a reason to spawncamp, but once the cart goes far off no one does anymore except that occasional spy backstabbing for kills or something.

[TheDR]

ΓΛPΤΘΓ, on 7 Feb 2010, 16:46, said:

I am totally for allowing spawn killing, or even light spawn camping (Not 3 level sentrys outside spawn doors). In TF2, you are in SO MUCH advantage when you are need your spawn, but many people don't seems to use it. Its not like every kill is a instant kill when you are outside the spawn door, just go back to use the lockers, not hard. And people needs to realise once they open that spawn gate, you are no longer safe, prepare to be killed any moment.

@ Doc of the previous post: Competitive play doesn't mean its boring, I think I am rather competitive, and won't back down until killed. And the comment about not listening to surrounding is kinda null, if you are not aware of your surroundings you just asking to get killed. I know many people who play for fun, but there is still many that play for winning, me included.

I love competitive play, i also listen to my surroundings, but there are people who don't and i feel that treating them like crap because i have pumped an extra hundred hours into the game isn't fair. Spawn killing is lame in any form, its not a fair fight and it's not fun. I don't want it to not ever happen, i just want it not to happen as much as it is now.

[ΓΛPTΘΓ]

Quote

...Spawn killing is lame in any form, its not a fair fight and it's not fun. I don't want it to not ever happen, i just want it not to happen as much as it is now....

There. Banning spawn killing totally as you suggested in the first post, I am totally against it, but reducing number of spawn killing is good but I would say that is one of the hardest thing to enforce.

[TheDR]

ΓΛPΤΘΓ, on 7 Feb 2010, 17:12, said:

Quote

...Spawn killing is lame in any form, its not a fair fight and it's not fun. I don't want it to not ever happen, i just want it not to happen as much as it is now....

There. Banning spawn killing totally as you suggested in the first post, I am totally against it, but reducing number of spawn killing is good but I would say that is one of the hardest thing to enforce.

My point is we don't need to enforce it, we just need everyone to think twice before they spawn kill and try to do it as little as they can
After all, i do trust the majority of people playing and I'm sure we could all try to spawn kill less.