134 replies to this topic

[Wizard]

Kalo, on 29 Mar 2010, 4:25, said:

While it's really cool that everyone feels the need to publish a video or chart on BC2s weapon damage, you'll find they never show the advantages to low damage guns, or low ROF guns. Like the SAW with Magnum rounds would probably be the most OP LMG after the M60 receives a nerf because of it's awesome rate of fire and accuracy in sustained bursts for long range. Or the PKMs slow firing rate but awesome accuracy.


The only guns I can truly say that are trash would be the M9-3 (It's semi decent with an accuracy spec), the F2000 (Because Assault usually doesn't engage people at the range it's actually good at) the NORMAL Pump actions (Seriously glad they're receiving a buff soon if they are going to add the damage buff.) and the Thompson (Decent with Mag rounds). And the Type 88 LMG personally.

Balls to the double post.

Echoing what Kalo is saying, I've found that the XM8 Compact has so far been monsterous in close quarters for me. If you can learn to tap it out it's incredibly accurate and will take down most players before they get you. M16 is just beastly as well, but we knew that as it's the last Assault unlock and was bound to be.

I'd be interested to hear what peoples load out are. I've noticed I am having much more success these days with Armour over Magnum. What do others use?

[Admiral FCS]

-Guns
-Assault: Somehow I found AUG extremely suited to my taste with ACOG.
-Engineer: XM8, as TPAM said. SCAR is too much of a let down, and since I'm going on a "Get gold star, then use next gun" trend, I haven't got to use AK-74 yet.
-Support: 88 LMG is kind of a lame LMG that it somehow its bullets fly off to somewhere else other than the center of the sights. I haven't tried M60 yet, so my personal favourite now is split between PKM and M249, depending on situations.
-Recon: SV98 is actually better than GOL and M24, even M95 IMO, just for the sight and the resemblance to AW.
-Universal: S12K w/slug.

-Attachment
-Assault: Masterkey and Smoke aren't too useful (for now), so I'm sticking with GL, though I rarely use them.
-Engineering: I think it's a split between RPG and M2CG. M136 have the vulnerability of having to lock on, and mines are easily spotted by a careful driver.
-Medic: Hello, it's not like I can have a choice
-Recon: Again, depending on situations, either C4 or mortar will suffice.

-Sidearm
-I haven't used Grach yet, but between others, definitely Colt.

-Perk/Spec 1
-Assault: ACOG is much better than red dot IMO; bandolier is not necessary, depending on your accuracy; grenade vest is recommended
-Engineering: Again, ACOG > red dot; explosives pouch is needed in vehicle/heli-heavy maps
-Medic: Medkit H+ is definite; yet again, ACOG > red dot
-Recon: As noted on Battlefield Wiki, sniper rifles seem to ignore/minimize drop when ACOG/red dot is used, so they are pretty handy for semi-autos; 12x for large maps, definitely

-Perk/Spec 2
-Assault: Depends if you are a wall smasher or no-sight-sweeper, chose between Magnum ammo/Improved demo; marksman isn't really necessary TBH
-Engineering: Improved demo for vehicle maps, Magnum ammo for Uzi/PP2000
-Medic: Medic is kinda difficult to decide, but should be between Medkit R+ or Magnum ammo
-Recon: Magnum for semi-autos and VSS, spotting scope for bolters

-Vehicle Perk
-Vehicle perk really depends on style; seeing that my opinion of always using Improved Firepower was healthily critiqued by experienced players, and that it doesn't do too much after playing for some time, I thought that Optics/Alternate Fire would be my choice.

Edited by Admiral FCS, 30 March 2010 - 04:59.

[Stalker]

My loadouts:

Assault:

AN-94 (M416 and M16 are good too but AN-94 is better imho)
M1911
-
+Grenades
AR-Specialization or +Explosion

Medic:

M60 (its awesome/OP although I found out the MG36 is quite nice too. Still need to unlock the MG3)
M1911
-
Red-Dot (please shoot the guy who designed the M60's ironsights)
LMG specialization or Magnum

Support:

M14 or AK74 (although I haven't unlocked the G3 or any SMG after AK74)
M1911
RPG for AT / CG for beeing nooby and pissing people off xD
+Rockets
+Explosion

Recon:

M95 or GOL (Both are awesome) but also VSS if I'm in the mood.
M1911 ( )
Mortar strike
12x scope (+ammo for VSS)
Magnum

EDIT:
Vehicle Perks:

Armor, Firepower or Altweapon

Edited by Stalker, 30 March 2010 - 07:19.

[Wizard]

Interesting graph is interesting



Edit: Knife is OP, nerf NOW

Edited by Wizard, 30 March 2010 - 09:52.

[Chyros]

Well pretty much exactly what I've been saying then. M60's and noobtubes are lame and grossly overused .

[Warbz]

The M60, knife and noob toob being top 3 actually saddens me. :(

[Wizard]

Chyros, on 30 Mar 2010, 11:48, said:

Well pretty much exactly what I've been saying then. M60's and noobtubes are lame and grossly overused .

The tubes aren't grossly overused imo.

Let's say:

4,100,000 total skills with the 40mm grenade launcher but 12,800,000 with the other ARs. I wouldn't say that is grossly overused based on that sample. 1 in 4 kills is reasonable for that class imo.

[Shirou]

For assault the tube is one of your little advantages, wouldn't want it nerfed imo. Yet, whilst in the other classes there is competition, for Medic it seems that the M60 is the absolute be-all-and-end-all LMG, which is just stupid because the customization for this class already is small.

I see XM8, M16A2, AUG and AN94 not really outrunning each other (although the usage of the XM8 is probably due to that you will use this gun for quite some time anyway). The M60 however is just too dominant in the med class, presumably over 75 percent using the same damned gun.

The high amount of knife kills though surprises me at first glance, but on the other hand. Face it, every class has a knife, so technically you will have to set the amount of knife kills to the complement of total kills minus that of knives. In that respect, its not even near the knife laming as seen in MW2. (its five percent, one in 20 kills.)

Edited by Trivmvirate, 30 March 2010 - 14:00.

[Wizard]

Hence the impending nerf to the weapon. It is just lethal at pretty much every range and situation, plus having a huge RoF and the highest damage output of any LMG.

[Chyros]

Trivmvirate, on 30 Mar 2010, 15:36, said:

For assault the tube is one of your little advantages, wouldn't want it nerfed imo. Yet, whilst in the other classes there is competition, for Medic it seems that the M60 is the absolute be-all-and-end-all LMG, which is just stupid because the customization for this class already is small.

I see XM8, M16A2, AUG and AN94 not really outrunning each other (although the usage of the XM8 is probably due to that you will use this gun for quite some time anyway). The M60 however is just too dominant in the med class, presumably over 75 percent using the same damned gun.

The high amount of knife kills though surprises me. Suppose knives could need a nerf.

The amount of knife kills is because the knife is on all classes, naturally. But yeah, because without magnum rounds almost all automatics take two centuries to kill anything at short range, the knife is always the best option.

Wizard, on 30 Mar 2010, 15:41, said:

Hence the impending nerf to the weapon. It is just lethal at pretty much every range and situation, plus having a huge RoF and the highest damage output of any LMG.

I don't have time to calculate it just now but I'm quite convinced it is in the top three for TTK of all automatics, perhaps it is even number one.

[Wizard]

Chyros, on 30 Mar 2010, 15:01, said:

Wizard, on 30 Mar 2010, 15:41, said:

Hence the impending nerf to the weapon. It is just lethal at pretty much every range and situation, plus having a huge RoF and the highest damage output of any LMG.

I don't have time to calculate it just now but I'm quite convinced it is in the top three for TTK of all automatics, perhaps it is even number one.

No need to calculate it, it's already been done. 4 shots at close or 0.3273 seconds. Only beaten by OHK range SR.

http://img697.images...688/statsze.png

[Kalo]

Trivmvirate, on 30 Mar 2010, 13:36, said:

For assault the tube is one of your little advantages, wouldn't want it nerfed imo. Yet, whilst in the other classes there is competition, for Medic it seems that the M60 is the absolute be-all-and-end-all LMG, which is just stupid because the customization for this class already is small.

I see XM8, M16A2, AUG and AN94 not really outrunning each other (although the usage of the XM8 is probably due to that you will use this gun for quite some time anyway). The M60 however is just too dominant in the med class, presumably over 75 percent using the same damned gun.

The high amount of knife kills though surprises me at first glance, but on the other hand. Face it, every class has a knife, so technically you will have to set the amount of knife kills to the complement of total kills minus that of knives. In that respect, its not even near the knife laming as seen in MW2. (its five percent, one in 20 kills.)

If they nerfed the Tubes kill radius and make EXPLMK2 give it the stock one I'd be happy. Too many people run around with the 40mm and rarely ever use the actual gun it's attached to.

[Wizard]

I looked into my own stats after that graph. I have about 30% of my AR kills from the tube. I think if you have more than 50% you're doing it wrong. It doesn't mean it's OP though.

[Chyros]

Doesn't really even matter that much, it's just lame. If it's not lame here then MW2 isn't lame either. I don't mind a strong assault class, that's what it's there for after all, but this tubing is just not for the good of the game .

Not using a noob tube is often just stupid too. Because bullets are not hitscan the noobtube loses its most significant disadvantage over bullets and with HTK values of 5-9, not using the tube is tactically inexcusible outside of forced elements such as damageviewkick and damage disorientation (you know, you take a hit anywhere and suddenly you're deaf and blind).

Edited by Chyros, 30 March 2010 - 21:42.

[Kalo]

Ever notice how when a wall next to you gets Gustaved/40mmed you die? That's what it was meant to be used for in bc1(IIRC)/2 (Or atleast I think so since the wall exploding can often do more damage then the noob tube itself). Truthfully if they did nerf the damage to make it not a 1 hit kill without the EXPLMK2 and more of a way to finish people off, or hurt them then you might actually see Assault users using the amazing 40mm shotgun (Which is more reliable then a handgun actually) or the smoke launcher which in all fairness is also pretty useful. Really though this realistic damage, to me. is proof that Realism should be used sparsely in any FPS. If we're gunna be realistic about they all need to have a talk with BSS and have them tell them the proper way to do "realism" even though I'm positive Reality mod is realistic, but is still not the way combat actually works.

Edited by Kalo, 30 March 2010 - 22:49.

[Wizard]

Kalo, on 30 Mar 2010, 23:43, said:

Truthfully if they did nerf the damage to make it not a 1 hit kill without the EXPLMK2 and more of a way to finish people off, or hurt them then you might actually see Assault users using the amazing 40mm shotgun (Which is more reliable then a handgun actually) or the smoke launcher which in all fairness is also pretty useful.

I have to agree with you on the usefulness of the shotgun, but it's very situational and even though these maps are small compared to what most would quite like, they are still to big to make using the shotgun a preference over the tube. Smoke is very useful, especially on Rush, but iirc it's bugged, ie it's possible to make changes to your settings configs to enable you to see through the smoke atm. I think it's a known bug they are removing.

But even so none of the above is enough to make me think the tube needs a nerf or is overused in this game. It really isn't that easy to use either. Granted there are some scenarios in which it is. But if you're going to rush into activate/defuse an Mcom and haven't got the support with you or haven't cleared the area then tube or no tube you're going to die. People complain that it requires no skill, actually you will die to the tube more often than not because of a lack of teamwork and proper tactics, not because the tube is OP.

[Chyros]

Wizard, on 31 Mar 2010, 10:00, said:

But even so none of the above is enough to make me think the tube needs a nerf or is overused in this game. It really isn't that easy to use either. Granted there are some scenarios in which it is. But if you're going to rush into activate/defuse an Mcom and haven't got the support with you or haven't cleared the area then tube or no tube you're going to die. People complain that it requires no skill, actually you will die to the tube more often than not because of a lack of teamwork and proper tactics, not because the tube is OP.

I don't really care about being slaughtered when defusing an MCOM, what I do care about is the fact you can't pump out the twelve million bullets you need to kill someone without magnum rounds before the tube kills you. That's lame. And not easy to use? It has a fatal area of more than 19 m² and over 30 m² with the explosives perk (what was it called, FXZLQ? ) . How can you not kill someone with that?

Edited by Chyros, 31 March 2010 - 10:05.

[Wizard]

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 11:05, said:

I don't really care about being slaughtered when defusing an MCOM, what I do care about is the fact you can't pump out the twelve million bullets you need to kill someone without magnum rounds before the tube kills you. That's lame. And not easy to use? It has a fatal area of more than 19 m² and over 30 m² with the explosives perk (what was it called, FXZLQ? ) . How can you not kill someone with that?

The 2.5m lethal kill radius isn't that large when you place it in the context of some maps. Nelson Bay for example is rather tough to get tube kills on due to the rocky/hilly nature of the landscape. Granted there are maps where it's considerably more effective, but unlike MW2, where the tube is king and very lame, BC2 just isn't the same. If you compare the tube with the 72m² lethal damage area of the CG and there is no contest and that is without the exlosive perk.

Every time I play this game now, if I am killed by a tube, I don't think to myself "OMGBBQ that was lame", I think, "how did I let myself get killed with it?". Players should be working in squads, avoiding choke points where there really is no alternative than to use a 40mm, keeping an eye out for people hiding in elevated buildings where they have cover and a better angle to use it. I just don't see it as lame, and like Kalo has said, the damage charts simply do not account for the experience of playing the game and mine has told me it's not as bad as a lot of people make out.

[deltaepsilon]

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 11:05, said:

Wizard, on 31 Mar 2010, 10:00, said:

But even so none of the above is enough to make me think the tube needs a nerf or is overused in this game. It really isn't that easy to use either. Granted there are some scenarios in which it is. But if you're going to rush into activate/defuse an Mcom and haven't got the support with you or haven't cleared the area then tube or no tube you're going to die. People complain that it requires no skill, actually you will die to the tube more often than not because of a lack of teamwork and proper tactics, not because the tube is OP.

I don't really care about being slaughtered when defusing an MCOM, what I do care about is the fact you can't pump out the twelve million bullets you need to kill someone without magnum rounds before the tube kills you. That's lame. And not easy to use? It has a fatal area of more than 19 m² and over 30 m² with the explosives perk (what was it called, FXZLQ? ) . How can you not kill someone with that?

Cruddy hit registration (which may explain the the 12 million rounds you need to down someone)

[Chyros]

Wizard, on 31 Mar 2010, 12:24, said:

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 11:05, said:

I don't really care about being slaughtered when defusing an MCOM, what I do care about is the fact you can't pump out the twelve million bullets you need to kill someone without magnum rounds before the tube kills you. That's lame. And not easy to use? It has a fatal area of more than 19 m² and over 30 m² with the explosives perk (what was it called, FXZLQ? ) . How can you not kill someone with that?

The 2.5m lethal kill radius isn't that large when you place it in the context of some maps. Nelson Bay for example is rather tough to get tube kills on due to the rocky/hilly nature of the landscape. Granted there are maps where it's considerably more effective, but unlike MW2, where the tube is king and very lame, BC2 just isn't the same. If you compare the tube with the 72m² lethal damage area of the CG and there is no contest and that is without the exlosive perk.

Every time I play this game now, if I am killed by a tube, I don't think to myself "OMGBBQ that was lame", I think, "how did I let myself get killed with it?". Players should be working in squads, avoiding choke points where there really is no alternative than to use a 40mm, keeping an eye out for people hiding in elevated buildings where they have cover and a better angle to use it. I just don't see it as lame, and like Kalo has said, the damage charts simply do not account for the experience of playing the game and mine has told me it's not as bad as a lot of people make out.

I'd say tubes are considerably easier to defeat in MW2 than in BC2 because bullets in MW2 are accurate and many times more lethal than in BC2. Besides like you pointed out, the maps are really big, and there is always a good spot for tubers to camp with ammo crates, a little bit of hilliness here and there doesn't change that at all. Besides the CG can be taken down by invisible men with homing missiles - any player worth their salt will have it down in no-time, and the power of hardpoints in MW2 is grossly overestimated because most players are too lazy or stupid to make a class capable of taking down hardpoints and then complain they keep getting killed by them, wow how could that ever happen?!

deltaepsilon, on 31 Mar 2010, 12:24, said:

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 11:05, said:

Wizard, on 31 Mar 2010, 10:00, said:

But even so none of the above is enough to make me think the tube needs a nerf or is overused in this game. It really isn't that easy to use either. Granted there are some scenarios in which it is. But if you're going to rush into activate/defuse an Mcom and haven't got the support with you or haven't cleared the area then tube or no tube you're going to die. People complain that it requires no skill, actually you will die to the tube more often than not because of a lack of teamwork and proper tactics, not because the tube is OP.

I don't really care about being slaughtered when defusing an MCOM, what I do care about is the fact you can't pump out the twelve million bullets you need to kill someone without magnum rounds before the tube kills you. That's lame. And not easy to use? It has a fatal area of more than 19 m² and over 30 m² with the explosives perk (what was it called, FXZLQ? ) . How can you not kill someone with that?

Cruddy hit registration (which may explain the the 12 million rounds you need to down someone)

More like the inherent inaccuracy of everything you're not able to conpensate for . Hit detection IS weird though. I'm pretty sure for example the head hitbox on sniper rifles is a big as a skippy ball because I keep getting headshots that can't possible have hit a head .

[Wizard]

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 12:00, said:

Besides the CG can be taken down by invisible men with homing missiles - any player worth their salt will have it down in no-time, and the power of hardpoints in MW2 is grossly overestimated because most players are too lazy or stupid to make a class capable of taking down hardpoints and then complain they keep getting killed by them, wow how could that ever happen?!

I think you may have mistaken the "CG" in my post for a Chopper Gunner in MW2 and not the Carl Gustav in BC2, to which I was referring with the blast radius area

[Chyros]

Wizard, on 31 Mar 2010, 13:04, said:

Chyros, on 31 Mar 2010, 12:00, said:

Besides the CG can be taken down by invisible men with homing missiles - any player worth their salt will have it down in no-time, and the power of hardpoints in MW2 is grossly overestimated because most players are too lazy or stupid to make a class capable of taking down hardpoints and then complain they keep getting killed by them, wow how could that ever happen?!

I think you may have mistaken the "CG" in my post for a Chopper Gunner in MW2 and not the Carl Gustav in BC2, to which I was referring with the blast radius area

Sorry, frame of reference I guess . I've never seen "CG" refer to anything but "Chopper Gunner" yet so indeed I mistook it for that. But yeah, the Carl Gustav is really lame for much the same reason (except you can't resupply yourself).

[Destiny]

That's what assault classes are for...unless they don't go where you do

[Chyros]

Destiny, on 31 Mar 2010, 13:19, said:

That's what assault classes are for...unless they don't go where you do

Well then at least it takes two members to make one of those shoot-around-the-corner camper sites to work.

[Wizard]

Well recently I've adopted a "never stand still" approach to this game and it genuinely makes for less kills with the tubes. A moving target is this game is considerably more tough to tube than in MW2 due to the make size and geography. If you sit in building waiting you will get killed by an explosive pretty quickly. Use it as cover to flank an objective and you'll likely survive.

And I'll reiterate what I've said on the EA BC2 boards quite a few times now, it's not that the tube is OP, it's that there are too many lame people that use it. K/D ratios are too important in this game now. I would actually prefer it if they removed the stat totally from the PC version and then seriously increased the exp gained from completing objectives.