104 replies to this topic

[CJ]

Well, I'd like to see your reaction if this were to happen in your country, and if it was your car burning outside, Chyros... I'm pretty sure you'd not be so sure that water and tear gas would be enough.

[Wizard]

What is happening across the country has nothing to do with Duggan. It had nothing to do with Duggan on Sunday in Tottenham when the first one happened. It's 100% about teenagers with nothing to do, stealing things they can't afford, because they think it's owed to them. Nothing more complex than that.

And water cannons, whether we had them or not , would not be effective. This isn't an organised protest turned violent. There aren't hundreds upons thousands of people bearing down on one spot. It is lots and lots of small groups throwing things through shop windows and stealing stock. There is very little way the police can counter this. I've gotten bored of watching riot gear clad police chasing up a street 200m behind a group of 15, 15 year olds.

It's not really even a riot, it's extreme antisocial behaviour.

[Chyros]

 CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 07:23, said:

Well, I'd like to see your reaction if this were to happen in your country, and if it was your car burning outside, Chyros... I'm pretty sure you'd not be so sure that water and tear gas would be enough.

I can say for sure I wouldn't want to be associated with murder in any way and under any circumstance.

[Alias]

 Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 07:36, said:

What is happening across the country has nothing to do with Duggan. It had nothing to do with Duggan on Sunday in Tottenham when the first one happened. It's 100% about teenagers with nothing to do, stealing things they can't afford, because they think it's owed to them. Nothing more complex than that.

The events are unrelated but if the event with Duggan didn't happen there wouldn't of been something for the looters to capitalise on. Sort of like WWI, everyone forgot about Franz Ferdinand after everyone was fighting eachother.

I also posted that as it was some relevance to Ion's comment that the police did the 'right' thing.

 Chyros, on 10 August 2011 - 07:37, said:

 CJ, on 10 August 2011 - 07:23, said:

Well, I'd like to see your reaction if this were to happen in your country, and if it was your car burning outside, Chyros... I'm pretty sure you'd not be so sure that water and tear gas would be enough.

I can say for sure I wouldn't want to be associated with murder in any way and under any circumstance.

I agree completely.

Sure I'd be pretty peeved if my car was destroyed but under no circumstances whatsoever is property worth more than a human life, this is why I staunchly oppose the whole castle doctrine thing which seems to be so crash-hot in the US.

There's also something called insurance.

[Raven]

Is the police authorized to use tear gas? I guess that would be a more better option.

[Wizard]

 Raven, on 10 August 2011 - 08:05, said:

Is the police authorized to use tear gas? I guess that would be a more better option.

The police, afaik, are authorised to use whatever means are necessary to disperse the looters. The problem is that there are not enough people in one place to make it effective and the police are probably afraid of launching tear gas at kids . Utterly incorrect position to take imho.

[Ion Cannon!]

 Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 08:14, said:

 Raven, on 10 August 2011 - 08:05, said:

Is the police authorized to use tear gas? I guess that would be a more better option.

The police, afaik, are authorised to use whatever means are necessary to disperse the looters. The problem is that there are not enough people in one place to make it effective and the police are probably afraid of launching tear gas at kids . Utterly incorrect position to take imho.

Indeed, the top cops are the ones who have to make the big decisions (The office ones) and they've probably got a lawyer on one side and a human rights activitst on the other. They're not kids, they're rabid animals.

[Nid]

It's gone too far. Three men were killed last night not far from me, they were protecting their community. This is beyond rioting and looting. This is potentially becoming chaos, anarchy, mass murder. Groups are dispersing when police appear, so they are essentially chasing shadows.

This is NOT about Mark Duggan. Exactly as Wiz said, this is about teenagers doing exactly what they want to do. This happens a lot, it is mindless pointless voilence that is typical of these kinds of people, but it happens in isolated incidents, and not as severe are the consequences. There is no clear source of the problem, they speak to news crews talking of the fact that the rich have taken jobs away from them, put them in the place they are today. This is a cover, a guise with which they can move around the country destroying communities and buisnesses. If the Government listened, increased funding into education "allowing these kids the opportunities they deserve" then nothing will change.

I've seen kids like this time and time again in society, and they reject any and all help they are offered. There is no excuse for this behaviour, and if you want to blame anything at all, it's allowing their cuntish parents to sit on their arses all day breeding, not caring, making appearances on the Jeremy Kyle show, and sponging money off the government, money they don't deserve. The kids are headed the same way, repeat cycle.

[Chyros]

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 07:59, said:

There's also something called insurance.

Well yes and no. Unfortunately insurance companies don't cover against war or molestation so it's actually quite unlikely you'd get your money back .

 Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 08:14, said:

 Raven, on 10 August 2011 - 08:05, said:

Is the police authorized to use tear gas? I guess that would be a more better option.

The police, afaik, are authorised to use whatever means are necessary to disperse the looters. The problem is that there are not enough people in one place to make it effective and the police are probably afraid of launching tear gas at kids . Utterly incorrect position to take imho.

Apparently Cameron just gave green to water cannons btw. As for tear gas, it's a perfect weapon to disable any rioters. It's not as if it poses significant risk to anyone, yet if you get hit by it, you won't go on very quickly. It's hard to use against small groups in the middle of the city, though.

[Ion Cannon!]

I agree completely with what Nid said. Our country doesn't need these "people" it never has. The government has already poured money into these scum ridden fucks and they still seem to think they deserve more? I hope every last one of them dies in a fire.

[Alias]

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:00, said:

I agree completely with what Nid said. Our country doesn't need these "people" it never has. The government has already poured money into these scum ridden fucks and they still seem to think they deserve more? I hope every last one of them dies in a fire.

Tough. They're there to stay and you need to deal with it, presumably without either killing or deporting them otherwise you'll end up like a certain historical entity that shall not be named.

[Wizard]

 Chyros, on 10 August 2011 - 11:55, said:

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 07:59, said:

There's also something called insurance.

Well yes and no. Unfortunately insurance companies don't cover against war or molestation so it's actually quite unlikely you'd get your money back .

That depends entirely on the insurance coverage you are talking about. Afaik, 99% of the shops damaged in these riots will get their money back, as a standard commercial B&C policy covers this sort of thing. However, some will carry specific exclusions. It is unlikely, however, that those policies offered to Inner London businesses will have these excluded as it's not really on the radar. Politically motivated distubances yes, as that's a blanket exclusion for everything. Theft, breaking and entering etc is covered.

Edit:

David Cameron said:

"It is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society, people allowed to feel the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities and their actions do not have consequences. Well, they do have consequences."

A. Fucking. Men.

Edited by Wizard, 10 August 2011 - 12:19.

[Nid]

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 12:11, said:

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:00, said:

I agree completely with what Nid said. Our country doesn't need these "people" it never has. The government has already poured money into these scum ridden fucks and they still seem to think they deserve more? I hope every last one of them dies in a fire.

Tough. They're there to stay and you need to deal with it, presumably without either killing or deporting them otherwise you'll end up like a certain historical entity that shall not be named.

Minus the fact that these people are ACTUALLY causing trouble.

[Ion Cannon!]

These people will kill,have killed and will kill people who can and do contribute to society. They live off benefits, vandalise, mug, steal, cause trouble in schools and disrupt people who could achieve something. And thats when they're not mobilising and rioting. They're not scared of the police because the police cannot really hurt them, they've not been taught morals or right and wrong, and refuse or destroy any kind of assistance they have been given to get out of their situation. They won't ever work because they don't want to work, they will then breed and create more of the same. If you eradicate this group of people you would solve oh so many of this countries problems in one fell swoop.

[SquigPie]

 Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 12:16, said:

David Cameron said:

"It is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society, people allowed to feel the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities and their actions do not have consequences. Well, they do have consequences."

A. Fucking. Men.

Afraid to tell you Wiz, but that GIF has quite a different meaning if you know where it's from.

Still, the point stands, and I completely agree.

Edited by SquigPie, 10 August 2011 - 12:46.

[Alias]

 Nid, on 10 August 2011 - 12:38, said:

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 12:11, said:

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:00, said:

I agree completely with what Nid said. Our country doesn't need these "people" it never has. The government has already poured money into these scum ridden fucks and they still seem to think they deserve more? I hope every last one of them dies in a fire.

Tough. They're there to stay and you need to deal with it, presumably without either killing or deporting them otherwise you'll end up like a certain historical entity that shall not be named.

Minus the fact that these people are ACTUALLY causing trouble.

We know that, doesn't stop you from treating them humanely.

You've identified the source of the problem as their attitude. How do you plan to fix their attitude?

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:44, said:

These people will kill, have killed and will kill people who can and do contribute to society. They live off benefits, vandalise, mug, steal, cause trouble in schools and disrupt people who could achieve something. And thats when they're not mobilising and rioting. They're not scared of the police because the police cannot really hurt them, they've not been taught morals or right and wrong, and refuse or destroy any kind of assistance they have been given to get out of their situation. They won't ever work because they don't want to work, they will then breed and create more of the same. If you eradicate this group of people you would solve oh so many of this countries problems in one fell swoop.

You've said so already, we know. They're leaches, bla bla. Deal with the source of the problem and gaol the criminals.

Edited by Alias, 10 August 2011 - 12:49.

[Ion Cannon!]

Our jails are already full, we need more but we don't have any money for it.

You also don't seem to understand, the source of these people is the people themselves. And it simply isn't possible to take all the children from the suspect parents into social care. This also all costs more money, money we don't have.

Anyway, sign this = http://epetitions.di.../petitions/7337

[Nid]

Dealing with their attitude though is a difficult task. Imprison them? They will be turned into much more dangerous thugs. Furthermore their sentences will only last for so long, and the idea of imprisonment is not even a threat to these kinds of people, not in this country. What's to stop them doing the same when they get out? You have to instil fear and control, but under UN and EU and our own legislation, that is a very difficult task without breaching human rights. This is why the country is having trouble dealing with the problem.

Combatting peopel like this is difficult, especially when they show no regard for human nights, where as the authorities have to.

[Alias]

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:53, said:

Our jails are already full, we need more but we don't have any money for it.

You also don't seem to understand, the source of these people is the people themselves. And it simply isn't possible to take all the children from the suspect parents into social care. This also all costs more money, money we don't have.

Anyway, sign this = http://epetitions.di.../petitions/7337

Well then, looks like you need a tax raise your government cannot provide the services it needs to, and you need to overhaul your welfare system. Over here we cut the welfare of parents whose children do not regularly attend school (alongside a bunch of other things). I can't remember who said it before, but a good education does make a world of difference.

 Nid, on 10 August 2011 - 12:55, said:

Dealing with their attitude though is a difficult task. Imprison them? They will be turned into much more dangerous thugs. Furthermore their sentences will only last for so long, and the idea of imprisonment is not even a threat to these kinds of people, not in this country. What's to stop them doing the same when they get out? You have to instil fear and control, but under UN and EU and our own legislation, that is a very difficult task without breaching human rights. This is why the country is having trouble dealing with the problem.

Combatting peopel like this is difficult, especially when they show no regard for human nights, where as the authorities have to.

How else do you propose to fix the problem, then? Gaol may not be the best punishment for these but it's the best you have available. Make them serve compulsory community service along with their sentence.

In semi-related news, pretty ironic that Cameron had plans to cut funding to the police department, think that one will be off the agenda for a while.

[Ion Cannon!]

Although our political climate isn't quite as extreme as the US raising taxes is political suicide really. Thats not to say it shouldn't be done, I think it should, but not just so we can educate / domesticate a tiny section of the populace. Why should people who work hard pay more for the sake of these fuckwits. Money has already been poured into education.. ah you know what, you just don't seem to understand, these people DON'T WANT education. If the parents of these to be terrors could be educated that may have worked, but I think it's to late for them already.

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 10 August 2011 - 13:08.

[Wizard]

This country destroyed it's ability to punish people properly a long time ago. Our penal system is beyond a joke now. Hell, there is even an article on the BBC today about how poor our jails are. There are not enough of them and they lack ability to actually punish criminals, let alone rehabilitate, if you believe that is possible.

The UK went to hell in a handbasket circa 1997 and now we're not just paying for it economically, we're paying for it socially as well.

[Nid]

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:02, said:

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 12:53, said:

Our jails are already full, we need more but we don't have any money for it.

You also don't seem to understand, the source of these people is the people themselves. And it simply isn't possible to take all the children from the suspect parents into social care. This also all costs more money, money we don't have.

Anyway, sign this = http://epetitions.di.../petitions/7337

Well then, looks like you need a tax raise your government cannot provide the services it needs to, and you need to overhaul your welfare system. Over here we cut the welfare of parents whose children do not regularly attend school (alongside a bunch of other things). I can't remember who said it before, but a good education does make a world of difference.

 Nid, on 10 August 2011 - 12:55, said:

Dealing with their attitude though is a difficult task. Imprison them? They will be turned into much more dangerous thugs. Furthermore their sentences will only last for so long, and the idea of imprisonment is not even a threat to these kinds of people, not in this country. What's to stop them doing the same when they get out? You have to instil fear and control, but under UN and EU and our own legislation, that is a very difficult task without breaching human rights. This is why the country is having trouble dealing with the problem.

Combatting peopel like this is difficult, especially when they show no regard for human nights, where as the authorities have to.

How else do you propose to fix the problem, then? Gaol may not be the best punishment for these but it's the best you have available. Make them serve compulsory community service along with their sentence.

In semi-related news, pretty ironic that Cameron had plans to cut funding to the police department, think that one will be off the agenda for a while.

I dont understand how you can comment on any of this in the way you have, without having lived in this country, hearing only what you have from news sources on the opposite side of the world, and reading what we have all written in this thread, only offering contradictory responses? You're entitled to your opinion, but I can assure you that jailing these people, giving them community service will not solve the issue of their attitude, which is the question you asked earlier. We need a permanent fix, not a temporary fix that is going to either anger them further, or create a generation of even more thugish brutish criminals, who care even less for the wellbeing of others around them.

What I am saying is finding an answer to this is just not as simple as sending them to prison, whether the government chooses to do so or not. Personally, I cannot offer you a solution that will work without breaching Uk or International legislation.

Edited by Nid, 10 August 2011 - 13:12.

[Ion Cannon!]

I was reading that article and thinking "That's how jails should be"

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 10 August 2011 - 13:15.

[Alias]

 Ion Cannon!, on 10 August 2011 - 13:07, said:

Money has already been poured into education.. ah you know what, you just don't seem to understand, these people DON'T WANT education. If the parents of these to be terrors could be educated that may have worked, but I think it's to late for them already.

If you read what I posted, I never said spend more on education. I said cut the benefits of those who don't attend education. Cut the benefits of those who aren't actively looking for work. Overhaul your welfare system,

 Wizard, on 10 August 2011 - 13:08, said:

This country destroyed it's ability to punish people properly a long time ago. Our penal system is beyond a joke now. Hell, there is even an article on the BBC today about how poor our jails are. There are not enough of them and they lack ability to actually punish criminals, let alone rehabilitate, if you believe that is possible.

The UK went to hell in a handbasket circa 1997 and now we're not just paying for it economically, we're paying for it socially as well.

I'm sure Labour contributed to the problem but to say these things are exclusively due to one political party is nonsense. This is part of the reason why I am politically independent and never vote for a specific party. Partisanship is a relic of the past.

 Nid, on 10 August 2011 - 13:11, said:

I dont understand how you can comment on any of this in the way you have, without having lived in this country, hearing only what you have from news sources on the opposite side of the world, and reading what we have all written in this thread, only offering contradictory responses? You're entitled to your opinion, but I can assure you that jailing these people, giving them community service will not solve the issue of their attitude, which is the question you asked earlier. We need a permanent fix, not a temporary fix that is going to either anger them further, or create a generation of even more thugish brutish criminals, who care even less for the wellbeing of others around them.

What I am saying is finding an answer to this is just not as simple as sending them to prison, whether the government chooses to do so or not. Personally, I cannot offer you a solution that will work without breaching Uk or International legislation.

If you haven't noticed, Australia is, politically and culturally, quite similar to the UK. We have these sorts of problems as well, primarily in the Aboriginal community and in low-class whites. I live reasonably close to several lowest of the low-class areas (government housing, etc) and I am not alien to these problems. There is also a juvenile prison reasonably close. Imprisonment and community service do work to an extent, and should to a certain degree quell some of the problems with the current batch. Once you overhaul the welfare system the rest should slowly follow.

I don't quite understand how you're saying "they don't fear authority!" yet you oppose utilising the primary punitive method of your country.

Edited by Alias, 10 August 2011 - 13:23.

[Wizard]

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you read what I posted, I never said spend more on education. I said cut the benefits of those who don't attend education. Cut the benefits of those who aren't actively looking for work. Overhaul your welfare system

Cutting benefits, despite the fact that I signed the petition Ion posted, isn't going to solve the problem. It will actually make it worse. Taking away money from these people will push them into disorder further.

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

I'm sure Labour contributed to the problem but to say these things are exclusively solely to one political party is nonsense. This is part of the reason why I am politically independent and never vote for a specific party. Partisanship is a relic of the past.

Distance from this particular problem does alter your perspective. I grant you that the Labour government from 1997 onwards aren't the sole and only cause for what we are seeing here. But having seen the way this country has gone since their election, I can safely state that the leadership of the UK under Labour has had a HUGE influence on what we are seeing now. An influence that no person in the UK can ignore or fail to recognise.

 Alias, on 10 August 2011 - 13:22, said:

If you haven't noticed, Australia is, politically and culturally, quite similar to the UK. We have these sorts of problems as well, primarily in the Aboriginal community and in low-class whites. I live reasonably close to several lowest of the low-class areas (government housing, etc) and I am not alien to these problems. There is also a juvenile prison reasonably close. Imprisonment and community service do work to an extent, and should to a certain degree quell some of the problems with the current batch. Once you overhaul the welfare system the rest should slowly follow.

Absolutely. Jailing these idiots is a temporary solution at best. As has been stated a few times, the root of this problem lies in the lack of respect for others that these kids have. Not just for others, but for themselves as well. No child or teenager of my generation would have ever, ever dreamed of this. Ever! These kids are raised in a society were they are handed things for doing nothing. Not punished because it's not their fault, they are poor. This has been the way of things now for over a decade. No one takes responsibility for anything, including their own behaviour!


On a separate note, whilst I applaud the "efforts" of the people in the link. This is only going to end badly.

http://news.sky.com/...rticle/16046910

Drunken blokes wandering Enfield at night, surrounded by riot police is a receipe for complete and utter disaster.

Edited by Wizard, 10 August 2011 - 13:35.