Getting less and less excited about this. May as well just stay with vCOH/OF.
DLC unlocking is alright (not 'good', but not horrible) for single-player or co-op centred games like Borderlands or Just Cause but for (supposed) competitive multiplayer games like this or League of Legends it is just absolutely stupid. And the sad part is people actually buy into it.
CJ, on 21 September 2012 - 04:39, said:
Is that a legit question? Didn't you how fucked up Company of Heroes online, with more than half the units requiring you to buy them from the store before you can use them ingame?
Everyone and their dog is going for pay 2 win these days, even full priced games, it would seem...
Except Valve.
Dota 2 and CS:GO 4lyf.
Yeah, well TF2 was ruined by free 2 play, so even Valve is at it.
And I don't get the hate towards League, the only thing that can only be bought with cash are skins that don't affect your gameplay, and only DotA players are whining about it TBH.
Yeah, well TF2 was ruined by free 2 play, so even Valve is at it.
While I definitely agree that TF2 is worse after F2P (even worse after items, don't even need F2P), it doesn't exactly have pay2win and while some weapons do have their advantages, the stock weapons hold reasonably well against everything else. That said, I stopped playing TF2 months before F2P and have only played it once or twice since.
CJ, on 21 September 2012 - 05:53, said:
And I don't get the hate towards League, the only thing that can only be bought with cash are skins that don't affect your gameplay, and only DotA players are whining about it TBH.
The thing is it has a serious effect on gameplay. While skins are the only thing money only, it takes an awful long time to unlock enough points for heroes/champions (whatever you want to call them) and then there's the whole rubbish around the summoner skills and rune pages. This is the direct opposite to Dota where the only thing separating the greatest players in the world with the worst players is their individual skill and knowledge.
With the heroes, I don't get how people can be satisfied without the whole hero pool. Dota is balanced with certain heroes being counters to others. If you cannot counter-pick, the balance is not there. It takes hundreds of hours to unlock the pool with gameplay, or substantial amount of money. This is why people familiar with Dota see League of Legends as pay2win. The only items in Dota 2 are purely cosmetic. No thing will change in game attributes.
Besides the whole pay2win thing, the other thing is restricting heroes stifles innovation. I find it strange that Riot, who subscribes to their strange 'anti-fun' ideal makes their game the complete antithesis of fun in many ways, you can play 10 games of League of Legends and know how another 100 play out. The metagame is so static it isn't funny.
Not to mention there's a complete lack of punishment for anything, so you end up getting all the players into bad habits, such as relying on huge crutches like Flash.
Now, I'm not saying League of Legends isn't fun – it is, but only to a certain extent. There is far more opportunity for strange and unheard of things to happen in Dota that while League is just as fun, it isn't as exciting. Dota can feel much more cruel, because it is, but there is also the potential for a lot more.
It's quite ironic as I was never too much a fan of Dota in the past and preferred adaptations over clones, mainly because I had some bad experiences with it long ago – but it has improved immensely since then, primarily because of Icefrog. Dota 2 is just an extension of this.
Hopefully when Dota 2 comes out of closed beta more of you folk can give it a try. It's worthwhile applying for an invite at the moment too.
The thing is it has a serious effect on gameplay. While skins are the only thing money only, it takes an awful long time to unlock enough points for heroes/champions (whatever you want to call them) and then there's the whole rubbish around the summoner skills and rune pages. This is the direct opposite to Dota where the only thing separating the greatest players in the world with the worst players is their individual skill and knowledge.
Summoner skills? What's wrong with those?
I agree that rune pages are overpriced though, as well the runes themselves (but that's not relevant since they can only be bought with IP)
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 06:13, said:
With the heroes, I don't get how people can be satisfied without the whole hero pool. Dota is balanced with certain heroes being counters to others. If you cannot counter-pick, the balance is not there. It takes hundreds of hours to unlock the pool with gameplay, or substantial amount of money. This is why people familiar with Dota see League of Legends as pay2win. The only items in Dota 2 are purely cosmetic. No thing will change in game attributes.
Ironically, I prefer by far the system that LoL has regarding champions, especially when you're starting out in the game. When I installed DotA 2, I had no clue on which hero to select because there were so many, and the UI gave no info whatsoever about them in the selection screen, whereas LoL had info about all of them, as well as a difficulty bar so you wouldn't try to play a champ with a steep learning curve in your first games.
Actually, the first hero I tried in DotA 2 was the broodmother, I'll let you guess how well that went
Also, counter picking isn't as important in LoL, which is a far better thing because getting shat on during the whole game and being 9 levels behind just because the opponent happened to counter pick you is stupid, where's the fun in having to stay under your turret all game long because the opponent is freezing the lane on his side? (I know you could gank other lanes, but if you're already behind, that's not likely to turn out so well for you, isn't it?)
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 06:13, said:
Besides the whole pay2win thing, the other thing is restricting heroes stifles innovation. I find it strange that Riot, who subscribes to their strange 'anti-fun' ideal makes their game the complete antithesis of fun in many ways, you can play 10 games of League of Legends and know how another 100 play out. The metagame is so static it isn't funny.
That's also another point I disagree on, the fact that DotA hasn't got a meta isn't necessarily a good thing, you can get a tri-lane that denies you at the start if you're on the suicide lane which totally ruins the fun (Well it did for me at least, and my ganks weren't that successful afterwards which resulted in a quick loss)
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 06:13, said:
Not to mention there's a complete lack of punishment for anything, so you end up getting all the players into bad habits, such as relying on huge crutches like Flash.
With the amount of cc in the game, I'd say any misstep is definitely punishing (well at least in ranked games), flash alone isn't going to save you, especially when the other team has it as well...
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 06:13, said:
Hopefully when Dota 2 comes out of closed beta more of you folk can give it a try. It's worthwhile applying for an invite at the moment too.
Well, as you can probably tell, i did try it, and didn't like it that much compared to LoL.
Imho, it's as fun because as you said yourself, it's too punishing... You can't go fucking around in normal games, every single game feels like you're playing on a tournament level or something...
Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love the additional gameplay mechanics in DotA, such as the denying, jungle stacking and manipulating the terrain, but it's definitely not a game that I'd call fun or would play with a group of friends "for the lols"
Summoner skills? What's wrong with those?
I agree that rune pages are overpriced though, as well the runes themselves (but that's not relevant since they can only be bought with IP)
Personally, it's just another way to fix the game into a certain pattern. The same summoner skills are usually chosen, the same runes are usually chosen. It very much keeps the game centred in only one way.
I've heard someone before say the League was very preemptive, many of the major things you do actually happen before the game actually starts – runes, limited hero pool, etc. Whereas Dota is reactive – most of what the players do is in reaction to what the other team is doing. Almost every summoner skill in League has an item in Dota that does the exact same or similar thing. E.g. Blink dagger is Flash with longer range and shorter cooldown, however it costs a substantial amount of money and is really only used for initiation as you cannot use it after being attacked.
CJ, on 21 September 2012 - 06:49, said:
Ironically, I prefer by far the system that LoL has regarding champions, especially when you're starting out in the game. When I installed DotA 2, I had no clue on which hero to select because there were so many, and the UI gave no info whatsoever about them in the selection screen, whereas LoL had info about all of them, as well as a difficulty bar so you wouldn't try to play a champ with a steep learning curve in your first games.
Actually, the first hero I tried in DotA 2 was the broodmother, I'll let you guess how well that went
Also, counter picking isn't as important in LoL, which is a far better thing because getting shat on during the whole game and being 9 levels behind just because the opponent happened to counter pick you is stupid, where's the fun in having to stay under your turret all game long because the opponent is freezing the lane on his side? (I know you could gank other lanes, but if you're already behind, that's not likely to turn out so well for you, isn't it?)
For starters, Valve are supposedly going to have a limited hero pool for beginners to run with for the first 5-10 games, but it is closed beta so you can't expect them to have all of the mechanics in place just yet. I'd really recommend you start with one of the three L's that are usually good to learn the ropes on. Lich, Lion or Lina. There are each useful support spellcasters with a stun/slow and they all have a good damage nuke ultimate so you will usually get at least some kills and assists regardless of how bad you play. Lich and Lion also have an easy way to regenerate mana, which coming from spell spam central may help ease you in.
I would give you some tips for Broodmother, but I'd suggest you learn a bit more with easier characters first. Dota heroes have a much larger skill disparity and ceiling than League. Invoker is in particular targeted by Riot as being "anti-fun" as he takes some actual effort to learn how to play and how to fight against.
Plus, the beauty of the flexible meta is if you are losing a lane, quite often people will TP to another lane and either gank or push down a tower or two. Dota is very different to League in that there is no set full 25+ minute period where you are just stuck laning. There are many heroes good at roaming and the towers are also weaker in Dota so you can push a lot easier, and in some games laning can end at 10-15 minutes when the good roaming heroes hit level 6.
As for ganking other lanes, because of the nature of Dota being more punishing ganking is usually much more successful. In competitive Dota games it is common to see the total kills hit anywhere between 50-80 between two teams, whereas in competitive League it becomes an event to see more than 20 kills because of Flash, very short duration crowd control and many other things.
CJ, on 21 September 2012 - 06:49, said:
That's also another point I disagree on, the fact that DotA hasn't got a meta isn't necessarily a good thing, you can get a tri-lane that denies you at the start if you're on the suicide lane which totally ruins the fun (Well it did for me at least, and my ganks weren't that successful afterwards which resulted in a quick loss)
Really, you just need to play more. Unfortunately at the end of the day, someone is going to have to lose, and because of the way Dota matchmaking works, it should be you 50% of the time. I really suggest you try and play a bit more, particularly as some of the easier characters that I mentioned earlier, as you will get over the hard starting period quite soon.
CJ, on 21 September 2012 - 06:49, said:
Well, as you can probably tell, i did try it, and didn't like it that much compared to LoL.
Imho, it's as fun because as you said yourself, it's too punishing... You can't go fucking around in normal games, every single game feels like you're playing on a tournament level or something...
Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love the additional gameplay mechanics in DotA, such as the denying, jungle stacking and manipulating the terrain, but it's definitely not a game that I'd call fun or would play with a group of friends "for the lols"
As I mentioned earlier, give it another try. If you have played less than 20-25 games before making a full judgement about it, you're going about it the wrong way. I have played 200 hours or so of Dota 2 and have a small amount of WC3 Dota under the belt and I'm hardly the most knowledgeable source. Put some more time into it, it can feel like a chore at times. I quit for a couple of weeks after I started too, but I came back to it and I am still discovering new things every time I play.
Once you have played some games as Lina, Lich and Lion, I suggest you check these out as other reasonable easy to get into heroes:
Tidehunter
Shadow Shaman
Death Prophet
Ogre Magi
Brewmaster (if you think you can micro three things at once)
I would offer to play with you to show you some things, but unfortunately I'm stuck on US West, HK and SEA as Europe is way too much lag to play Dota on. I'm pretty sure Scope/JRK/beefjerky plays so he may be able to give you some assistance if you ask.
Finally, have a watch at this and honestly tell me how often things like this happen in League. In particular, the Puck at #4, the Storm Spirit/Lifestealer at #3 and the Chen at #1. This is the reason I like Dota better, and really the reason why many other people along with myself see it as a superior formula.
I would give you some tips for Broodmother, but I'd suggest you learn a bit more with easier characters first. Dota heroes have a much larger skill disparity and ceiling than League. Invoker is in particular targeted by Riot as being "anti-fun" as he takes some actual effort to learn how to play and how to fight against.
Well, League has been working on the skill ceiling lately, most champions are easy to play, but hard to master. Orianna is the prime example of a high skill cap champion while being (imo) one of the most fun to play ones.
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
Plus, the beauty of the flexible meta is if you are losing a lane, quite often people will TP to another lane and either gank or push down a tower or two. Dota is very different to League in that there is no set full 25+ minute period where you are just stuck laning. There are many heroes good at roaming and the towers are also weaker in Dota so you can push a lot easier, and in some games laning can end at 10-15 minutes when the good roaming heroes hit level 6.
I don't know where you got this idea of a 25 minute laning in LoL, maybe it's the case for very low elo games, but nowadays map and objective controls are primordial, which encourages semi-roaming supports, midlaners ganking every now then sometimes as soon as they get lvl 4. Basically only the toplaners can be expected to stick to their lane for 25 minutes, everyone else can be easily seen roaming after 10 minutes of play.
The Moscow 5 team is probably the best example for that, their strategy relies on invading the enemy jungle every time they get a chance to do so.
And I've personally played a ton of games where we'd stop laning at 15 minutes...
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
As for ganking other lanes, because of the nature of Dota being more punishing ganking is usually much more successful. In competitive Dota games it is common to see the total kills hit anywhere between 50-80 between two teams, whereas in competitive League it becomes an event to see more than 20 kills because of Flash, very short duration crowd control and many other things.
Well that's kinda relative, flash and cc can't always save you from a gank in LoL either, since turrets do a lot less damage than they do in DotA, allowing you to towerdive enemies if they flashed away, plus there's a near 4 minutes cooldown on Flash...
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
As I mentioned earlier, give it another try. If you have played less than 20-25 games before making a full judgement about it, you're going about it the wrong way. I have played 200 hours or so of Dota 2 and have a small amount of WC3 Dota under the belt and I'm hardly the most knowledgeable source. Put some more time into it, it can feel like a chore at times. I quit for a couple of weeks after I started too, but I came back to it and I am still discovering new things every time I play.
Will do, when the game is released. For now I cba to learn a hundred new heroes and their abilities/how to counter them though. Especially since I've got around 2k games under my belt in LoL :<
Thanks for the suggestion and the help offer btw
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
Finally, have a watch at this and honestly tell me how often things like this happen in League. In particular, the Puck at #4, the Storm Spirit/Lifestealer at #3 and the Chen at #1. This is the reason I like Dota better, and really the reason why many other people along with myself see it as a superior formula.
Honestly? Well that video didn't really look like a top plays to me, the fact that everyone is blinking around every now and then makes the game look broken to me. You say that flash is a bad thing because it lets you get away with your misplays in LoL, but from what I can see in Dota, it's downright overkill D:
(Also, that video editor needs to die D:)
I would give you some tips for Broodmother, but I'd suggest you learn a bit more with easier characters first. Dota heroes have a much larger skill disparity and ceiling than League. Invoker is in particular targeted by Riot as being "anti-fun" as he takes some actual effort to learn how to play and how to fight against.
Well, League has been working on the skill ceiling lately, most champions are easy to play, but hard to master. Orianna is the prime example of a high skill cap champion while being (imo) one of the most fun to play ones.
Most of them seemed pretty easy to master to me. There is just about zero complex mechanics in League. If Orianna was in Dota she'd be lower-mid tier of difficulty at best. A prime reason for this is there is no heroes or items which allow you to control creeps or proper summoned units (no, the alt-click summons doesn't count). Please do tell me when Riot adds a hero like Invoker (or even one at a similar level of complexity), considering they've already expressed their distaste at the idea of things that actually require learning (completely disregarding the fact that Guinsoo, who actually works for Riot, designed the completely imbalanced 27 skill Invoker in the Allstars days).
CJ, on 27 September 2012 - 07:07, said:
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
Plus, the beauty of the flexible meta is if you are losing a lane, quite often people will TP to another lane and either gank or push down a tower or two. Dota is very different to League in that there is no set full 25+ minute period where you are just stuck laning. There are many heroes good at roaming and the towers are also weaker in Dota so you can push a lot easier, and in some games laning can end at 10-15 minutes when the good roaming heroes hit level 6.
I don't know where you got this idea of a 25 minute laning in LoL, maybe it's the case for very low elo games, but nowadays map and objective controls are primordial, which encourages semi-roaming supports, midlaners ganking every now then sometimes as soon as they get lvl 4. Basically only the toplaners can be expected to stick to their lane for 25 minutes, everyone else can be easily seen roaming after 10 minutes of play.
The Moscow 5 team is probably the best example for that, their strategy relies on invading the enemy jungle every time they get a chance to do so.
And I've personally played a ton of games where we'd stop laning at 15 minutes...
Please, go on about how the League meta isn't stale. It is common knowledge in the entire community that just about every game plays the same.
CJ, on 27 September 2012 - 07:07, said:
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
As for ganking other lanes, because of the nature of Dota being more punishing ganking is usually much more successful. In competitive Dota games it is common to see the total kills hit anywhere between 50-80 between two teams, whereas in competitive League it becomes an event to see more than 20 kills because of Flash, very short duration crowd control and many other things.
Well that's kinda relative, flash and cc can't always save you from a gank in LoL either, since turrets do a lot less damage than they do in DotA, allowing you to towerdive enemies if they flashed away, plus there's a near 4 minutes cooldown on Flash...
Towers do waaaaaay more damage in League than in Dota. How many Dota games have you actually played? One, two?
In Dota you protect the towers, in League the towers protect you.
CJ, on 27 September 2012 - 07:07, said:
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
As I mentioned earlier, give it another try. If you have played less than 20-25 games before making a full judgement about it, you're going about it the wrong way. I have played 200 hours or so of Dota 2 and have a small amount of WC3 Dota under the belt and I'm hardly the most knowledgeable source. Put some more time into it, it can feel like a chore at times. I quit for a couple of weeks after I started too, but I came back to it and I am still discovering new things every time I play.
Will do, when the game is released. For now I cba to learn a hundred new heroes and their abilities/how to counter them though. Especially since I've got around 2k games under my belt in LoL :<
Thanks for the suggestion and the help offer btw
It is already technically done, besides the fact they need to add the rest of the hero pool. The way the game plays won't change between now and official release. In fact, it'll be easier to start learning now as there isn't the entire pool. Don't forget in Dota you aren't held by the hand and can actually select things other than your own hero (so you can learn about all 10 heroes in the game and their abilities).
Really, you just need to play some more games. I guess I had it a little easier as I had some WC3 Dota knowledge but it only took me about 20 games get to know most of the heroes that you'll see in pub games. I think your problem is you're looking at Dota through League-tinted glasses.
CJ, on 27 September 2012 - 07:07, said:
Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 07:31, said:
Finally, have a watch at this and honestly tell me how often things like this happen in League. In particular, the Puck at #4, the Storm Spirit/Lifestealer at #3 and the Chen at #1. This is the reason I like Dota better, and really the reason why many other people along with myself see it as a superior formula.
Honestly? Well that video didn't really look like a top plays to me, the fact that everyone is blinking around every now and then makes the game look broken to me. You say that flash is a bad thing because it lets you get away with your misplays in LoL, but from what I can see in Dota, it's downright overkill D:
(Also, that video editor needs to die D:)
I guess you just need more game knowledge to know what is good and what isn't. All of those required a huge amount of map awareness, skill (particularly the Puck dodges), timing and good game sense.
The thing is, unless you have a blink ability, which only a very small amount of heroes do, Blink Dagger requires both a purchase (it's a midgame item) and it cannot be used for 3 seconds after being attacked. It isn't a get out of fail card, you have to be able to play the situation very well in order to be able to escape with it.
Please, go on about how the League meta isn't stale. It is common knowledge in the entire community that just about every game plays the same.
When did i deny that fact? I was talking about the laning part and how it does involve ganks + map control, not about the meta.
Alias, on 27 September 2012 - 10:49, said:
Towers do waaaaaay more damage in League than in Dota. How many Dota games have you actually played? One, two?
In Dota you protect the towers, in League the towers protect you.
Should have been more accurate here, I was talking about the damage you take early on. In LoL you can actually towerdive with your jungler at lvl 2-3 and not die if you know what you're doing and the lane is pushed, due to the way the turret targeting works.
Please, go on about how the League meta isn't stale. It is common knowledge in the entire community that just about every game plays the same.
When did i deny that fact? I was talking about the laning part and how it does involve ganks + map control, not about the meta.
The samey, predictable laning stage is the meta. 2+1+1+J. Plus so many heroes/champions are pretty much the same, so the lane composition may differ in heroes, but it ends up playing the same again, because so many heroes have the same ability set just repackaged into something slightly different.
CJ, on 27 September 2012 - 12:03, said:
Alias, on 27 September 2012 - 10:49, said:
Towers do waaaaaay more damage in League than in Dota. How many Dota games have you actually played? One, two?
In Dota you protect the towers, in League the towers protect you.
Should have been more accurate here, I was talking about the damage you take early on. In LoL you can actually towerdive with your jungler at lvl 2-3 and not die if you know what you're doing and the lane is pushed, due to the way the turret targeting works.
This is due to how tower aggression worked in WC3. You just need to do a little reading up on the subject, it's not that hard (as long as there's a couple of creeps around) to dive the tower early. You just need to know what to do, and have a hero which is sufficiently good at diving.
Dota has some burden of knowledge. Some things you just need to read about.
Towers do waaaaaay more damage in League than in Dota. How many Dota games have you actually played? One, two?
In Dota you protect the towers, in League the towers protect you.
Should have been more accurate here, I was talking about the damage you take early on. In LoL you can actually towerdive with your jungler at lvl 2-3 and not die if you know what you're doing and the lane is pushed, due to the way the turret targeting works.
This is due to how tower aggression worked in WC3. You just need to do a little reading up on the subject, it's not that hard (as long as there's a couple of creeps around) to dive the tower early. You just need to know what to do, and have a hero which is sufficiently good at diving.
Dota has some burden of knowledge. Some things you just need to read about.
Yeah, I kinda noticed that when I watched 10 hours worth of videos about the gameplay differences between LoL and DotA x)
Towers do waaaaaay more damage in League than in Dota. How many Dota games have you actually played? One, two?
In Dota you protect the towers, in League the towers protect you.
Should have been more accurate here, I was talking about the damage you take early on. In LoL you can actually towerdive with your jungler at lvl 2-3 and not die if you know what you're doing and the lane is pushed, due to the way the turret targeting works.
This is due to how tower aggression worked in WC3. You just need to do a little reading up on the subject, it's not that hard (as long as there's a couple of creeps around) to dive the tower early. You just need to know what to do, and have a hero which is sufficiently good at diving.
Dota has some burden of knowledge. Some things you just need to read about.
Yeah, I kinda noticed that when I watched 10 hours worth of videos about the gameplay differences between LoL and DotA x)
The worst thing is those videos probably won't go into the more egregious of differences, like the fact that casting spells on heroes doesn't draw creep/tower aggro but attacking with your autoattack does.
The best way to learn about it is to play, though.
Since CJ was so adamant about me watching the League finals, I thought it was quite amusing how hopeless Riot was. Once again, League isn't a bad game, Riot is just an awful company.
– No soundproof booths for the players – players can hear the commentary, awesome (and can almost see the projection behind them as well)
– Why choose an outdoor venue?
– Either 60 minute snoozefests with no kills or 30 minute snoozefests with no kills
– People cheering at wards dying because the games were so boring (there is a reason why wards are limited in Dota)
– Having to replay the same game 4 times because the netcode is horrible, and...
...most importantly,
– No replays, no save games and no LAN means the entire tournament crapped out at the end so they've had to delay the entire thing for a week
Riot needs to realise that they just can't throw money at things and expect it to work. They're the joke of the esports world at the moment.
For starters, considering the volume they'd need at the venue (especially since it was outside), the volume that the closed headphones (what they were using) would need to have would be high enough to damage the ears. You can't use active noise-cancelling headphones for something like that because it isn't ambient noise that they are trying to keep out. Having a closed booth would also stop the screen spying (Dota also has referees in the booth as well). Seriously, it would only cost them $10000-$15000 max to get some good quality booths. If they were really struggling for money (which they aren't) they could've just eliminated the money prizes for 11th and 12th place.
CJ, on 07 October 2012 - 09:04, said:
As for the net crash, well it's the responsibility of LA's ISPs.
As mentioned before, it wouldn't effect anything if it was hosted offline. If that happens in Dota, they just pause so they stream can start again later (if the stream is deemed important enough to delay the game). If the game server itself was effected then in Dota you just load up the savegame.
I will say that remakes have had to happen in Dota, but extremely, extremely infrequently.
CJ, on 07 October 2012 - 09:04, said:
The real BS about this whole thing is how they got to remake when CLG clearly was winning every time.
Unfortunately you'll never know how they would've turned out. The way these sorts of games work is it can turn around extremely fast, less so in League than in Dota but it can happen.
CJ, on 07 October 2012 - 09:04, said:
Although, I'll admit that this tournament is a JOKE.
Good to hear it. It's not just the way Riot has handled it though, the games have been pretty awful as well bar a few of them.
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Alias, on 21 September 2012 - 05:28, said:
