55 replies to this topic

[Commander Abs]

It's what I've learnt to coin American-tourist syndrome.

People go to a country and expect everything to be 'the way it is back home'.

Sure, immigrants make up a country. But why are immigrants there if their cultural background isn't respected there *unless* they want to live a life different to their original culture.

If an immigrant arrives in a country where their heritage and cultural practices are allowed and respected, then all the world of power to them.

If a country *doesnt* respect an immigrants heritage and culture, then that immigrant shouldn't expect that country to change it's laws and policies to accomodate that immigrant, they just shouldn't have moved there in the first place.

*However* it is a sovereign countries right to change it's policies. A change in policy may be disrespectful to a particular group of immigrants. I won't deny that it's disrespectful, I won't deny it's even racist. But it's a countries right. And depending on your outlook of a democracy, it's either 'Everyone has a fair go', or it's "Majority Rules",,, and generally it's the latter.

If a governments decision disrespects people of a particular faith, they can leave the country. In fact, it's why you have immigrants,,, immigrants are people who are (generally) disillusioned/disappointed/disenchanted with their own country or the country they immigrated from. Even journeymen, travellers, international students. They immigrate to other countries because the opportunities they desire are not available in there present residence.

If a particular group is unwelcome, they move to a place where they are welcome. If no such places exist anymore, thats when the group should form an independant state.

[Thinker]

Commander Abs, on 12 Jun 2007, 03:41, said:

It's what I've learnt to coin American-tourist syndrome.

People go to a country and expect everything to be 'the way it is back home'.

Sure, immigrants make up a country. But why are immigrants there if their cultural background isn't respected there *unless* they want to live a life different to their original culture.

If an immigrant arrives in a country where their heritage and cultural practices are allowed and respected, then all the world of power to them.

If a country *doesnt* respect an immigrants heritage and culture, then that immigrant shouldn't expect that country to change it's laws and policies to accomodate that immigrant, they just shouldn't have moved there in the first place.

*However* it is a sovereign countries right to change it's policies. A change in policy may be disrespectful to a particular group of immigrants. I won't deny that it's disrespectful, I won't deny it's even racist. But it's a countries right. And depending on your outlook of a democracy, it's either 'Everyone has a fair go', or it's "Majority Rules",,, and generally it's the latter.

If a governments decision disrespects people of a particular faith, they can leave the country. In fact, it's why you have immigrants,,, immigrants are people who are (generally) disillusioned/disappointed/disenchanted with their own country or the country they immigrated from. Even journeymen, travellers, international students. They immigrate to other countries because the opportunities they desire are not available in there present residence.

If a particular group is unwelcome, they move to a place where they are welcome. If no such places exist anymore, thats when the group should form an independant state.

ok your right in a way but a country should respect other peoples beliefs. There not asking anything from the goverment but to let them practice a belief a basic freedom witch everyone should be allowed. Its racist\immoral to denie the muslims this. In some countries the imagrants are the ones who mainly make up the working force. So if all imigrants were to move what would happen to that countries economy? If a country shows that they disrespect imagrants that is tourist dollars lost and a working force gone. What makes a country great is a variety of people and if you disrespect imagrants you lose that.

[Commander Abs]

In a country which relies on diversity to achieve, yes a country should respect other peoples beliefs. However I would stop short at saying a great country respects immigrants. I would stop short of defining what a great country is even.

Where democracy and diversity make up for in variety of options and range of capability, they are severely deficient in terms of efficiency. Like the 'Women are better than Men' topic, different political regimes are incomparable.

If you want an example, a military is quick and efficient. It's members have no choice in what they wear, no freedom in opposing standing orders, and generally all decisions are not of their own volition, unless it concerns their own personal maintenance.

A civilian workcrew would go through the rigors of planning options, independant design approval, union policy regarding employees and much more. But that's getting off topic.

Point is respecting other peoples beliefs, cultures and backgrounds is only important in a society which holds importance on these things.

[Thinker]

Every society should hold importance of respect to other peoples beliefs if they dont That country has failed its people in a way.

Edited by thinker, 12 June 2007 - 05:05.

[Commander Abs]

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record here but they've only failed if the Government serves the people. If it's the other way around and the people serve the Government then there's no failure.

Similar to a Communist regime in a way. Respecting others is simply something ingrained into our society as the 'right' thing. There's no reason why a different society couldnt exist, where people who thought otherwise than the strict doctrine enforced by the government were shunned, singled out, even disposed of.

I'm not arguing that this would be a nice society, but it could exist and function.

[Thinker]

I say serve the people and the people will serve you and give you loyalty and respect. If the country didnt serve them they would only serve you to a point and they would show no loyalty or respect and many would leave\rebel in time.

[Commander Abs]

Then you enter the world of what 'Serving' actually means. I serve the defence forces of my country, but they bed, food, clothe me, give me medical support, family support, heck, everything I could ask.

But I serve the forces, and thus, I serve my government. But yeah,, that's getting very off-topic.

[Whitey]

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I say serve the people and the people will serve you and give you loyalty and respect.

Bullshit. They won't serve you back, they'll take full advantage of you and then toss you to the wolves. Don't say I'm wrong because I and everybody else does this on a daily basis.

[Thinker]

Those people are a drain on a country and should contribute somthing to the goverment. Anything that the goverment is involved with can get corrupt or taken advantage of. It is our job as a people to make sure it doesnt and if you arent one of those people then thats pitiful what you do to your country and the people who died to protect it and make it.

[Whitey]

Wonderful, now you are somewhat aware of the burden every country faces.

And yet, while you are being a little goody-two shoes over there, you aren't helping your country either. What you are helping is the people that just love to mooch off of your tax money.

Imagine your government like a GIGANTIC mother of a chocolate moose pie. Everybody around you is chowing away at that pie, and you are just baking more to feed to the masses. This isn't helping your country in any significant way, but is hurting yourself in a very significant way. All that labor you put in and you don't get anything out of it. You are a pushover and you are aiding those that want that pie. So all that money you pour into the government is funneled away from you and you see perhaps a crumb in return per year. Eventually, you shrivel up and die from starvation.

If, however, you stop helping expand your government, the only thing you are hurting is the mass of people that are also fighting for that slice o' pie. And in hurting them, you are helping yourself. If you manage enough of the pie, the others trying to grab it will shrivel up and die of starvation and you will be the big lardass. But when people with the mind to help the country are the lardasses, then once the others shrivel up, you can start to help your country rebuild.

Moral of the story: The US and Britain and the like have really shitty governments that need to be dissolved and rebuilt in a way that keeps the bad guys from snatching their own for themselves with no intention of helping in the future.

[Thinker]

It may seem that way to you becuase like you said you are one of those people. You are also ignorant my tax money may help lazyass people but it also goes towards my army for protection researching and other positive things while you only seem to look at the negative. You also look at the people who burden a country rather then help it. You are negative towards your country and its people. How can a goverment expand and get better when it has people like you. Also how could usa have bad goverment when there the number one superpower. You dont know the definition of unity.

[Whitey]

No sir, you don't know the definition of naive. I'll leave it at that as this is very off-topic. *Mutters about the whole realist/idealist debate*

Back on topic: The Swiss have every right to ban Minarets under certain circumstances. I wouldn't care if they banned all prayer-calling devices as they are a hinderance and simply irritate the average person.

Perhaps we should revolutionize the idea and develope things called cellphone alarms. Oh, that's right, we already have those. I use one to wake myself out of bed befor I dream myself to death.

Edited by Solo Wing, 12 June 2007 - 07:28.

[CodeCat]

As odd as it seems, the US is a perfect example of what happens when immigrants get their way and start taking over the culture of the country they come to. And no, I'm not talking about spanish americans. I'm talking about the English vs the native inhabitants.

I say if people come to a country, they adapt to its ways. In older times, when there were less immigrants entirely (think a few hundred years ago), people HAD to adapt, because if they didn't they'd be social outcasts. They probably wouldn't survive if they demanded people adapt to them, they'd just get ignored/hated and maybe even killed. So they can keep their culture/belief/whatever, but only as long as it doesn't start to interfere with the culture of the country they come to. Integrate, not differentiate (math pun intended).

[Commander Abs]

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Integrate, not differentiate (math pun intended).

and effective to boot

But you've raised a good point there. When the English came to America, while my American history is pretty crap, I'm pretty sure a Church would've been one of the key structures to go up in any early settlement, or at least some form of worship, since religious unrest was a big source of English immigrants.

Then things started to get a bit too hot for the local inhabitants of America, so what happened? They were more or less conquered.

To draw quite a stark parallel, now we've got Minarets popping up in foreign lands. I'm not even going to go near an accusation of 'Oh noes, muslims are invading' because thats rubbish, but you can see why people might move to prevent something like that. Imagine if Indians were outright opposed to Churches being erected in the new world?

[Whitey]

Being part Native to this place (Blackfoot tribe FTW!) I think I have a somewhat less biased account when I say this: While I dislike the fact that Europe slaughtered so many of the Natives and attacked brutally, I can't help but feel that it is still not parallel to the modern problem with immigration.

Whereas back then, the Native Americans had no established country. The Europeans came in and established a nation with something called borders. National boundaries did not exist between the native tribes, only rough "turfs" if you will. While their slaughter cannot be justified, ther cultural conversion can to an extent. But today in the US, there are deliberate borders that people cross, and once they are crossed, they DEMAND from us. They remind me of my little sister. My parents buy her a cell phone (she's 11) and the next day she is pissed off and demanding a holde rfor it. We get that and its on to "rhinestones" (stickers that are shiny and are made for cellphones, AKA overpriced garbage). Give them opportunity and they'll just hack away at you until you are nothing. And that is the reality of not just the US, but humanity.

[smooder]

Nightshadow, on 12 Jun 2007, 04:05, said:

If you let immigrants slide too much, they'll expect more and more and leech off you. Like how some Hispanic immigrants want us to print the pledge in Spanish, I say "LEARN THE FUCKING LANGUAGE!! ESPECIALLY IF YOU EXPECT US TO LEARN YOUR LANGUAGE IN YOUR COUNTRY!! YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL!!" Sorry if I come off as racist, but it is already happening here in the U.S. You have to show them that you won't bow to their demands. They should follow the law just like everyone else. If your media portrays you badly, then that's the bleeding-heart media, control them, like we need to do with the fucking paparazzi or whatever.

OK Mr. American.

why dont you speak a native american language.
I'm betting you are not a native american.
You speak english.

Your family imposed your culture and your language on the native americans.

Speak "our" language.. Are you joking? are you for real?

It really annoys me to see americans like this.

America is "the land of the free" all languages should be welcome.

if the english are allowed to speak their own language why shouldnt everyone else?


EDIT: i didnt see this but codecat the dutchy put what i was saying into better english

CodeCat, on 12 Jun 2007, 11:47, said:

As odd as it seems, the US is a perfect example of what happens when immigrants get their way and start taking over the culture of the country they come to. And no, I'm not talking about spanish americans. I'm talking about the English vs the native inhabitants.

Edited by Smooder, 12 June 2007 - 18:49.

[Whitey]

No. I am in part a native to this country (with a slew of other nationalities) and I would appreciate it if I could call up for some pizza and get something I can understand as opposed to someone speaking a language that I haven't learned.

America is the land of the free sure, but freedom needs its boundaries. If the vast majority of Americans speak English, then why must you come into this country and refuse to learn our language.

Now I wouldn't mind it as much, but no, the federal government decides to FORCE me to learn OTHER languages within my countries own borders just so I can get a higher education. Now last I checked, Spanish isn't America's designated language, and yet, there are things called ESL courses where you don't need to learn English, and you can take these all the way through college. You can't do the same with English though. I just don't get it.

[CodeCat]

Solo Wing, on 12 Jun 2007, 21:13, said:

Now I wouldn't mind it as much, but no, the federal government decides to FORCE me to learn OTHER languages within my countries own borders just so I can get a higher education. Now last I checked, Spanish isn't America's designated language, and yet, there are things called ESL courses where you don't need to learn English, and you can take these all the way through college. You can't do the same with English though. I just don't get it.

Welcome to the world, my son. We have to learn Dutch, English, German and French. You have absolutely nothing to complain about whatsoever.

[Commander Abs]

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America is "the land of the free" all languages should be welcome.

Bah,,, freedom doesnt exist. If freedom really did exist, I would be able to walk down the public street with a sign saying "I Hate (insert derogatory term for a race), they deserve nothing" and not be assaulted, charged, whatever. I'm not threatening or imposing my way on others, i'm merely expressing my freedom of speech and declaring how I feel.

Obviously, thats stupid, and I'd deservedly be beaten or arrested for such a thing. BUT if a country really is a 'land of the free' I *should* be allowed to say such things in public.

Thanks to restrictions on freedom, this is not allowed.

Off - topic: You a dutchy codecat? I don't live there, but I'm half dutch Hope that means you like salty licorice

[Whitey]

There's a flaw in your argument Codecat, we aren't learning to communicate with our neighboring countries, we are learning to communicate with our next door neighbor.

But that's not the flaw, the thing is, while us in the states have to learn Spanish, the Spanish-Speaking in the states don't have to learn English.

[Thinker]

Yes we do my sister is constantly told in school to learn english so she sighns up for classes to learn. If she doesnt learn the basics of english she fails english class. Witch is most likely to happen. its hard to learn two languages and memorize them. @ codecat wow you have to learn all thos languages that must be hard as hell.

[Whitey]

Well my own school has "English Second Language" courses, in which they teach in Spanish. Perhaps yours is of a higher quality but whatever, I am damn sick of being forced to learn another language so I can work in an occupation that has no use for knowing any language but English.

For the first centuries of its life, the US pretty much only spoke English, but now with teh wave of illegal immigrants we are being forced to covnert to the ways of the immigrants as opposed to vice versa, and this bugs me to hell and back.

[Thinker]

No they just dont want us to be concetied and think we dont need to know about other peoples cultures and so we dont think were the best and they must learn about us and our ways we need to be open to other languages and cultures becuase everyone in america wont know english no matter how hard we try to educate them.

[Whitey]

That's the problem. We don't try.

[Thinker]

Well I guess your right in a way.