33 replies to this topic

[Code Monkey]

Dauth, on 3 Jun 2008, 23:50, said:

Evilgmk, on 4 Jun 2008, 2:39, said:

As for FHSSFCS, what is your problem with taiwan? You sound like you want China to completely obliterate the entire country.

That matter has been dealt with by the staff, please continue without drawing politics onto the forum.

Taiwan is a hot topic and something that's not fit for a gamer's board, let alone the warfare section thereof.

My apologies dauth, wont happen again. I'm just seeing this alot from him.

[Cuppa]

Evilgmk, on 5 Jun 2008, 10:03, said:

Dauth, on 3 Jun 2008, 23:50, said:

Evilgmk, on 4 Jun 2008, 2:39, said:

As for FHSSFCS, what is your problem with taiwan? You sound like you want China to completely obliterate the entire country.

That matter has been dealt with by the staff, please continue without drawing politics onto the forum.

Taiwan is a hot topic and something that's not fit for a gamer's board, let alone the warfare section thereof.

My apologies dauth, wont happen again. I'm just seeing this alot from him.

You can always PM him.

But on the note of the topic that gun looks way to big, heavy and unwieldy to be used at all.

[Dutchygamer]

Meh, it's more useable as a superweapon. You must not not use artilleries as frontline units you know

[Diamondcutter]

CommanderJB, on 31 May 2008, 10:48, said:

Look at it this way. Across the image is a very large red stamp, and though I don't speak Chinese, I would bet a very large amount of money that it says words to the effect of 'TOP SECRET'. So if this is indeed a real PLA program, what the hell is a top-secret program concept with detailed specifications doing on a GAMING FORUM? It just doesn't add up. Somehow I think this was drawn by someone as a cool and awesome prototype for what they hope will someday become a part of the PLA's arsenal (or was done by the SWR team - I wouldn't put it past them), but who is not connected to the military. Or it's a very serious breach of Chinese national security that has so far gone unnoticed because it's so implausible, but I don't really think so.
I do not intend to call anyone a liar, but given that the options are that this is actually a PLA document, in which case it would be top secret, or that it was a piece of non-military art, I'd go for the latter.

Did anyone said that this is a PLA doc...?

Sweet! I guess you would like to pay me something then...

The red "stamp" says "The best weapon to punch the Taiwanese Independentism"

I can't confirm if there's a real thing or not, but the picture itself was in a Chinese-based military magazine's paragraph introducing PLA's artillery.

...

Sometime what you see can fool you. Red stamp doesn't always says "top secret" or "classified"

But anyway this IS a very awesome looking weapon. In ShW or in reality both.

Edited by Diamondcutter, 24 June 2008 - 07:12.

[CommanderJB]

Diamondcutter, on 24 Jun 2008, 17:09, said:

CommanderJB, on 31 May 2008, 10:48, said:

Look at it this way. Across the image is a very large red stamp, and though I don't speak Chinese, I would bet a very large amount of money that it says words to the effect of 'TOP SECRET'.

Did anyone said that this is a PLA doc...?

Sweet! I guess you would like to pay me something then...

Key word highlighted. I would have bet... but I didn't. And evidently just as well. (I never bet on anything in real life. Unlike in games, where it's a great little money earner so long as you save the game each time before you play, and then just reload if you lose...)
So sorry, not coughing up.
But 'best weapon to counter/punch Taiwanese independence?' Really? I certainly wouldn't have picked that. It's not the sort of thing you see on stamps. Perhaps 'Approved' or 'Denied' would have been more likely, but a 'stamp' made up just to say all that seems a tad overblown for an official document, which again suggests this is simply art. I'd never deny that possibility.
Regardless, I'd still be sceptical that it actually exists given that (a) it's a frankly outlandish concept with performance well beyond that which several hundred years of warfare suggests is possible, and (b) no search turns up any results, which means if it does exist they're probably trying to keep it a secret (since its seems that everything else can be found on SinoDefence.com), which takes us right back to those old problems about secrecy and gaming forums.
As you say, though, one cannot deny its inherent coolness...

Edited by CommanderJB, 24 June 2008 - 07:39.

[Diamondcutter]

Diamondcutter, on 24 Jun 2008, 16:09, said:

Sweet! I guess you WOULD like to pay me something then...

In the same case, you didn't pay me either.

But again, no one in this post or the one you referred to had suggested that this is an official PLA weapon proposal, so clear the mind. As you said, this IS just an art. However, not someone who try to make a fantasy army and impress everybody.

As I mentioned, just an impression drawing in a Chinese military magazine article.

And sorry if I made this article become a little bit involved with politics, I promise this will be my last word about the conflict here. But as a matter of fact, it seems that everybody in the mainland China society is looking forward to take (back) Taiwan, despite if the propaganda did anything to them.

But no hard feelings right? :chillpill1:

Back to the topic, I don't think there is a real thing exist, but I do think the concept is possible, as the similar type of shell are using by M109 and AS90

[CommanderJB]

Right, yeah, should've noticed that 'would'. Sorry, I didn't want to come across as being too snooty about it, I was just having a bit of fun really. So certainly no hard feelings.

I was primarily using responses to your posts to further put forward my opinions to people who thought/still think that it was/is real, particularly as outlined below:

Zhen Ji, on 31 May 2008, 5:25, said:

It's real. The PLA/TPA uses them.

So yeah, I reckon it's art, and I now know you reckon it's art too, so we're all good. Anyone else can just form their own opinions. Again sorry if I caused any offence or annoyance.

[FrontlineChaos]

CommanderJB, on 31 May 2008, 9:48, said:

Look at it this way. Across the image is a very large red stamp, and though I don't speak Chinese, I would bet a very large amount of money that it says words to the effect of 'TOP SECRET'. So if this is indeed a real PLA program, what the hell is a top-secret program concept with detailed specifications doing on a GAMING FORUM? It just doesn't add up. Somehow I think this was drawn by someone as a cool and awesome prototype for what they hope will someday become a part of the PLA's arsenal (or was done by the SWR team - I wouldn't put it past them), but who is not connected to the military. Or it's a very serious breach of Chinese national security that has so far gone unnoticed because it's so implausible, but I don't really think so.
I do not intend to call anyone a liar, but given that the options are that this is actually a PLA document, in which case it would be top secret, or that it was a piece of non-military art, I'd go for the latter.

k, just gonna translate what it said...
The large red stamp was: "The cheapest way to stop/fight/retaliate in the case of Taiwanese Independence""

Railraod type--Low Trajectory Ramjet Smoothbore cannon/howitzer
Design
Firing a 1500 meter/sec round through a smoothbore cannon, bypassing high air density areas, into the upper atmosphere, flying along the curvature of the Earth, then using a GPS tracking system+Gyroscope, the shell can obtain an accuracy of about 250 meters, and using some kind of (couldn't understand) correction mechanism, the second shell would be pretty close to the target.

Size of barrel (diameter) 400mm
Size of shell (diameter) 300mm
Weight of shell 250kg
RoF: 2/min

Diagram right nest to it shows how the shell should look, and the shells are as follow
High Explosive
Bunker-Buster
Anti-Ship
Nuclear
-Neutron Pulse
-Neutron Radiation
-Neutron Overpressure

Under that
-Anti-Tank submunitions 35 bomblets
-Anti-Personnel/Anything alive (So the text says) (Napalm, I believe) 300 bomblets
-Fuel-Air Explosive (Thermobaric Weapon)
-Anti-Low Orbit Satellite Weapon
-Anti-Satellite Cluster munition

The cannon diagrams should be easy to comprehend
the only thing that requires translating is...
"Loading mode" (left) and "Firing mode" (Right)

On the top left hand corner, it describes the stages of the shell from firing to impact
and the magnified area is basically describing the ramjet engine

And it looks to me like you can load these things onto sufficiently large cargo ships to whack Taiwan...

Don't worry, I've learned fluent Mandarin so I'm pretty sure that what I translated was correct (unless there are codewords and alternate meanings I don't know)
Sorry if there were grammatical errors, Mandarin doesn't use the same rules as English.

And actually I can confirm the existence of this weapon (well, actually same concept), of course, it did seem to be on a much smaller scale. (ok, I'm living in China currently, and I have a military outpost four blocks away from my house, Shanghai does seem to be a great place to put long range cannons meant to bombard Taiwan with right? I mean densely packed so the Taiwanese can't attack it, and close enough for the cannons to work)
The cannon I did see was no where near the size of this thing, and the Taiwanese military is actually well aware of this weapon (the small one), heck, if things get worse, Taiwan might start building up an invasion force in Jingmen, to attack Xiamen (Stone's throw away), sieze the nearby nuclear missile siloes and control centers, try and rewire the nukes, and threaten Beijing with them. (What kind of idiot put nukes so clow to another country?)

Of course the big thing I have yet to see.

[CommanderJB]

Hello FrontlineChaos, and welcome to Fallout Studios. It's good to see you're investigating the board thoroughly, as there's plenty to see, and I look forward to future discussions with you. Always great to see intelligent and articulate members who aren't afraid to share their opinion widely from day one, that's for sure. As a Global Moderator it's also my duty to help make sure this forum runs smoothly, and I have a couple of things to point out in this regard. Firstly, the last post in this topic was on the 24th of June (I should know, after all), which means this topic has been dormant for almost a full five months. On most boards the revival of such 'dead' topics is known as 'necromancing' or 'necroing' for short. On this forum the policy on 'necroing' applies to topics over two weeks old, and while it doesn't state penalties, it's as well that you know necroed topics are typically locked. Please refer to the forum rules for further information (and make yourself familiar with them while you're there as well, always handy). Now as a new user this is entirely forgiveable, and as your post did add to the discussion I'm not going to lock it straight off (this is also partly because I want to respond and see the discussion continue personally, but hey! I'm only human).
Secondly this board has an extremely short fuse when it comes to politics. We have recently opened the Political Area, but I'm afraid that as a new user it will be a while yet before you're eligible to post there. The rest of the board is entirely off-limits to politics, and as you'll see if you read back through the thread, this has become an issue before as Taiwan is an inherently politically charged topic. It's best to discuss only the hardware aspects of this weapon and leave any real-world considerations alone so discussions can continue free of flame and ill-meaning among members who hold differing viewpoints on their use. This extends to all areas of the forum save the PA. Again, please refer to the rules for further information.

Now, with all the administrative stuff out the way, to business! There was a translation of the page posted in a discussion from some time ago, which I dug up in the first page and posted there, although the translation wasn't really as good as that which you posted above, so kudos with that. The stamp, as I have had pointed out to me, does not read what I thought it did. This does not change (in fact in some ways it reinforces) my belief that these are not official military specifications for a deployed or projected weapons system. Not only does the system not make sense from a technical standpoint, and I have turned up a total lack of any secondary evidence whatsoever on the internet, if the system was real the last place you'd expect the news to be broken is with a detailed tech spec by a computer games team.
Now, I'm not calling you a liar here. A truck-mounted howitzer is entirely possible and such weapons have been entering service with militaries around the world. I cannot however believe that what you've seen are weapons firing ramjet-assisted shells into low orbit. Such a weapon lies well outside the realms of several hundred years of ballistic experience. Such an undertaking would make a cruise missile (or even a ballistic missile) look positively cheap by comparison. I am of the belief that this design is not an official PLA document. My best guess would be that this represents the hopes of a commentator and is a theoretical concept rather than any plan for a real-life weapon. So... it might be a cool design, but I personally absolutely don't think it's from the PLA. There is so much of the design that simply doesn't make sense from a military standpoint.