52 replies to this topic

[Dauth]

The Wandering Jew, on 12 Jul 2008, 5:43, said:

Edit: It seems to me that our friends who follow Islamic faith have not yet replied here (or show their opinion).

In a lot of Islamic states there are serious differences between the rights of men and the rights of women. The idea of a female religious leader I expect will be quite hard to swallow.

[Shirou]

CodeCat, on 10 Jul 2008, 19:48, said:

Then maybe you can explain why every religion and all its members need to be bashed?

I do not have anything against members of a religion, and I'm not someone 'to dislike you because you believe X and Y', I only dislike organised religion for it's feature to put the truth into your mouth and act like the god of gaps. I think everyone should make his own ideology instead of being absorbed by some giant prophecy. Ofcourse, if you want to believe what some preacher is shouting out of the blue.. go ahead..

I for one am not really against current christianity in general. I mean a true christian is a rightful person and due to his religion, he/she tends to be more of a righteous person than someone without a religion, and thus it makes the world a better place. So that are the good things that sprout from it.

In contrast with that are the religions that make people do bad things in the name of their god.. it kind of evens out there. Now let me go ontopic, people who believe that their god wants them to make females have lower priority in society, havea doubtfully righteous deity to worship. In the light of recent comments on ''HATE!! BIGOTRY!!'' I better redundantly shut my mouth.

PS: I do feel that the ban on political discussions should be removed.

Edited by Aftershock, 12 July 2008 - 08:33.

[Dauth]

Aftershock, on 12 Jul 2008, 9:33, said:

PS: I do feel that the ban on political discussions should be removed.

Can't be done, and it's the fault of people who are not old enough to take criticism of their nation. Internal politics maybe but I'd rather say no to all politics than allow some bits and not others. After some of the political content I've removed the content we would get in a politics allowed forum would be truly worrying.

[smooder]

Dauth, on 10 Jul 2008, 14:37, said:

smooder, on 10 Jul 2008, 13:49, said:

And whats with everyone bashing catholics here?

With a list of crimes comparable to any European country, they deserve it.

Zhen Ji, on 10 Jul 2008, 13:50, said:

Scopejim, on 8 Jul 2008, 22:20, said:

I asked my Christian Education teacher about this last year (I'm in a Catholic school so such a class is mandatory) and he told me the reason bishops and priests are always male and not female is because they represent Jesus Christ in performing their duties and it is strange for a woman to "represent" Christ. Honestly I can see a point in this argument but if you ask me, for a person who is deeply rooted in his faith, it wouldn't matter whether he is receiving a sermon from a man or a woman. I think that the main reason for this attitude by the Church is political.

If that's true, correct me if I'm wrong but that seems Sexist.

I actually cant believe you just said like a billion people in the world deserve to be bashed. I don't think I need to even carry on with my response.
Catholics, like most religions are sexist, but you try taking them to court over it.

CodeCat said:

Then maybe you can explain why every religion and all its members need to be bashed?

Agreed. For once.

Dauth, on 10 Jul 2008, 19:02, said:

TehKiller, on 10 Jul 2008, 18:55, said:

Quote

With a list of crimes comparable to any European country, they deserve it.

Doing a crime and using religion as a shield doesnt make you a catholic. Also that statement looks a bit hypocritical.

When they excommunicate Hitler I'll be more forgiving. All I'm saying is that the RC Church can be bashed just as much as Britain can, we don't have a glorious past. The Empire was built on a number of unpalatable systems and just as Britain has her crimes so does the RC Church. It becomes incredibly funny when the guy in charge is meant to be infallible. The advantage of the countries is that they can be criticised on what they do now, since most of the mistakes have been apologised for or undone. The Catholic Chruch just keeps making them.

Fail. When Britain apoligises for the HUGE part they played in the slave trade maybe more people will be forgivving to us. When Britain appoligises for killing aborigionies, native americans maybe more people will be forgivving. Did the vatican ever not let people into a park in their own country based on the colour of their skin? Was the vatican ever racist? No and no.

This isnt sexism. The Vatican have their reasons. It is a Catholic belief that Jesus chose men to lead after him (all the desciples and apostles were men... unless you are gnostic and believe Mary Magdeline was one)

Catholics believe God works in mysterious ways and human logic can not work out everything.

Why would catholics not want fem,ale priets unless they had good reason.

[Shirou]

smooder, on 12 Jul 2008, 20:44, said:

This isnt sexism. The Vatican have their reasons. It is a Catholic belief that Jesus chose men to lead after him (all the desciples and apostles were men... unless you are gnostic and believe Mary Magdeline was one)

Catholics believe God works in mysterious ways and human logic can not work out everything.

Why would catholics not want fem,ale priets unless they had good reason.

Yeah, every form of sexism has it's own reasons but that doesn't mean they are justifiable just because they are religious. Sure, believe what you want to, but if that is the case, you must be able to take and handle criticism from people who do not believe that.

And with the RC Church I don't think that is really the problem, it is with the Islam. I really, really hate the fact that seem to undermine the right of free speech and freedom of expression by saying everything that people do against them is ''racist'', ''hateful" and ''discrimination''. because they feel harmed by it and can't handle no criticism, thinking they have the right to shut our mouth, and the problem is that it's working actually. (Take the recent arrest of a cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot the deep point) moment that I can't openly bash any religion, especially the islam, anymore, I'll be out of this country.

Edited by Aftershock, 13 July 2008 - 10:39.

[TehKiller]

Well bash your own religion not somebody else's.As far as "sexism" in religion it is very justifiable just because it IS religious and no feminist will change that, especially not an atheist.

[Shirou]

Within their own religion they can do what they want and if they want to keep rules that set women inferior I won't be the one to stop them, but I will criticize them, that's my right to do.

[TehKiller]

It is your right to criticise as much as you want but you have no right to bash someone's religion/belief

[Dauth]

TehKiller, on 13 Jul 2008, 14:08, said:

It is your right to criticise as much as you want but you have no right to bash someone's religion/belief

Even when they advocate executing you for not being of the same religion?

On of the reasons the Church doesn't want female bishops is that the bishops are meant to represent the disciples, all 12 of which were men.

By that logic the best bishop is either, A Jewish fisherman, A Convicted Thief, An Ex Tax Collector... You get my drift.

It's all a load of nonsense but people want it to stay because it stayed before and they are scared of the change. For the sake of sense, we spent thousands of years living in caves and you don't seem to complain about a nice semi-detached place by the sea.

[The Wandering Jew]

Aftershock, on 12 Jul 2008, 16:33, said:

...

PS: I do feel that the ban on political discussions should be removed.

Well, we would have a wholly different argument if the ban would be lifted. I prefer to keeping politics out of the question.

[markintellect]

Alias, on 11 Jul 2008, 5:17, said:

There is one thing I still do not get about this place. We cannot share our views of other countries but we can bash their beliefs?

Either allow politics here or ban religion, because it's starting to look a bit hypocritical.

Religion = Politics.

Think about it.

[Alias]

They are partially related, but in no way are they the same.

[Dauth]

It does get very interesting since it is logically impossible to discuss Islam, because the Islamic Church = The Islamic State, a rulership abandoned in the West 500 years ago.

If you ban religion then there's not a lot left to talk about.

[Sharpnessism]

Why not let politics back in then?

Quote

Even when they advocate executing you for not being of the same religion?

On of the reasons the Church doesn't want female bishops is that the bishops are meant to represent the disciples, all 12 of which were men.

What about governments that execute you because of your ideology? Or torture?

[Dauth]

Sharpnessism, on 31 Jul 2008, 17:25, said:

Why not let politics back in then?

Because there are a number of members who have the views either 'America is great, everyone who disagrees is a gutless communist who wants to kill us all.' or 'America is evil and is the reason for everything wrong in the world.', neither of which will back down and you get flame wars and trust me the people know who they are and they don't need to post in here defending themselves.

Quote

Quote

Even when they advocate executing you for not being of the same religion?

On of the reasons the Church doesn't want female bishops is that the bishops are meant to represent the disciples, all 12 of which were men.

What about governments that execute you because of your ideology? Or torture?

It's amazing how many of these are religious Governments, and torture derived information is of low yield to any intelligent person. If I tortured you enough you would tell me where Lord Lucan is, but he won't be there.

[Sharpnessism]

Dauth, on 31 Jul 2008, 12:34, said:

Sharpnessism, on 31 Jul 2008, 17:25, said:

Why not let politics back in then?

Because there are a number of members who have the views either 'America is great, everyone who disagrees is a gutless communist who wants to kill us all.' or 'America is evil and is the reason for everything wrong in the world.', neither of which will back down and you get flame wars and trust me the people know who they are and they don't need to post in here defending themselves.

Quote

Quote

Even when they advocate executing you for not being of the same religion?

On of the reasons the Church doesn't want female bishops is that the bishops are meant to represent the disciples, all 12 of which were men.

What about governments that execute you because of your ideology? Or torture?

It's amazing how many of these are religious Governments, and torture derived information is of low yield to any intelligent person. If I tortured you enough you would tell me where Lord Lucan is, but he won't be there.

Well I wasn't really talking about the effectiveness of torture since I agree with you anyway on that point. I'd argue further but you'd be right in the end that it would probably end with what you said earlier.

Edited by Sharpnessism, 31 July 2008 - 17:46.

[Alias]

Dauth, on 1 Aug 2008, 2:34, said:

Because there are a number of members who have the views either 'America is great, everyone who disagrees is a gutless communist who wants to kill us all.' or 'America is evil and is the reason for everything wrong in the world.', neither of which will back down and you get flame wars and trust me the people know who they are and they don't need to post in here defending themselves.

And there isn't the same thing with religion?

There is, except the religious people here are a little less overzealous than the Americans.

Edited by Alias, 01 August 2008 - 08:34.

[Dauth]

More factions make the hatred less of an issue, tbh this is a poorly used section. I do say that we'd have nothing to talk about, this isn't quite correct, looking through the last few topics not much has come up.

[Zero]

Okay, I'm Catholic and I've got one thing to say: Dauth you are sooooooooooooooo wrong about us and our crimes. The Catholic Church has, by itself, in less than 100 years, done crimes bad enough to make Hitler, Stalin, and every other bad European leader put together seem like little kids. Case and point- they banned medicine during the middle ages (which definitely contributed to the death toll of the black death), killed anyone who wasn't white form the dark ages all the way to mid 1600s (as well as the "nonbelievers who had some individualty) set up a monarchy worst than any Europe has seen before, gave Europeans permission to ahnialate all foreign cultures and people (and my people were part of that large group), invaded and forcefully took over Muslim land..... and there's a lot more, but I won't even bother with it, the list is too long. In short, my church is probably the single most corrupt organization there has ever been (the church labeled Mary Magdela a prostitute but according to some ancient documents of the time that were found back in the 90s, it turned out she was one of Jesus' most ddeveloped followers financially and spiritually and if you read the bible, you'll see that the diciples where more than jealous of her and I bet that's why she ended up a whore. Also, we killed the templars, the poor bastards who'd devoted their lives to us and helped us fight the "Muslim invaders" for no reason other than fear and a paycheck from the French king. What more, the Church has not yet apologized for any of it's crimes, come on! I just want to hear an I'm sorry I killed your people and culture!

The Church has always used religion to mask it's crimes, saying it was done "in the name of God." Such as when they chose to "introduce" their religion to the New World in the name of God, under orders, from God. You think zealots are bad? How many zealots have destroyed entire empires and cultures, the Church has eliminated more culture and people in the 1400 years it has been around than anything else in all of world history and there are even popes renown for bloodlust and a crave of war.

As for the women part.... well, the church now a days is better..... but still pretty damn retarded. I think women should be allowed to be priests and this is nothing more than stubborn sexism. Also, I think priests should be allowed to have children, why? Let's face it, what brings you "closer to God" and makes you more faithful, and thankful than having a child and seeing the miracle of life. Hell, I want a woman as Pope, maybe then the stubborn bastards will modernize. I'm just tired of all this crap that is supposedly "to strengthen your bond with Christ" and all this does is scare people away (I think the Church would have a lot more followers and would be gaining members instead of losing them if they modernized and stop trying to make everything so serious and ancient. In fact, I think that in a lot of ways Islam is better than Christianity, just like Christianity is better than Islam in other ways. If the churches could all just get over themselves and stop arguing over stupid things then it would be possible for Islam, Judaism and Christianity to fuse into one religion because our beliefs are essentially all the same, except that we argue over ridiculously small things, and to make my point: Jesus, was not the messiah, the messiah's one and only job was to bring about Armageddon and Jesus never did as far as I know, but then again I've only written the bible twice (our 7th grade teacher made us write it as a punishment) and read it like four times, I probably missed it! No, he may have been the same person who'll become the messiah, but in that life he wasn't, he was just a prophet, and that is pretty much what Muslims and Jews believe. I have a million more too. I say, change your ways or fall to the same fate as the all other religions before you!

Oh, and one last thing, Dauth, please let politics back in or at least make a new section for it, I mean, I lack any intellectuals to speak strategy and politics with. I mean, when you think about it, religion and politics, while nowhere near the same, are always intertwined. So, at least make a new section strictly for politics.

[Dauth]

I have read your post in entirety, twice and I agree with an awful lot of it, you sound like the second reasonable Catholic I have met.

However my point about the pro and anti US members still stands true, and until the entire moderating team feels that this is no longer the case we will not allow politics back. Believe me if I thought that a discussion about politics could be done without petty flame wars I would make a request in the staff area for a subforum. I honestly don't see a time when this forum will not be awash with the blood from the hearts on the sleeves of the members here, and I cannot create a private access forum for certain members because that sort of tiered society never works.

[Zero]

Dauth, on 6 Aug 2008, 17:57, said:

I have read your post in entirety, twice and I agree with an awful lot of it, you sound like the second reasonable Catholic I have met.

However my point about the pro and anti US members still stands true, and until the entire moderating team feels that this is no longer the case we will not allow politics back. Believe me if I thought that a discussion about politics could be done without petty flame wars I would make a request in the staff area for a subforum. I honestly don't see a time when this forum will not be awash with the blood from the hearts on the sleeves of the members here, and I cannot create a private access forum for certain members because that sort of tiered society never works.

Thank you, and I'm sorry about the suggestion, I'm new to the forum and didn't know about the pro/anti-america people. But, seriously, what a shame! Honestly! I wish people could be less biase about countries and what they do! I mean, personally, I don't like the French (they are ungrateful and unwilling to thank us for helping them out in WWI and WWII, and what's more their pride...... I hate pride). Everyone blames entire countries, but in reality it's the dumbasses running the country that are at fault, all of them! The only times America hasn't been run by a complete deuchebag idiot was during George Washington's, FDR's, Kennedy's, Teddy's, and Madison's terms (maybe Jefferson too). In short, all you haters out there, don'tt blame the entire country! And for the obssessed lovers, this country is not as perfect as you think!-Sorry, just wanted to say that. Thanks again for the compliment.

I know what you mean about reasonable, my mom and her friends are catholic and my god..... they are insane! She honestly thinks that gay marriage is wrong. She thinks a man and woman who hate each other have more of a right to get married than two gays who love each other, and here's the punchline...... that's only because it was in the bible! Honestly, I think without the bible and religion, in general, life would be so much easier because we wouldn't have to argue about who's God is the real God, we'd just have to believe in gravity, electromagnetism, and all the other of the universe's forces, not some book which emphasizes on bull statements that most people actually believe! If God is real, he is one really cruel son of a bitch (especially since it even says in the bible that a good Christian is "god fearing" and it does too, look it up). And last but not least without religion we wouldn't have like 79% of the people lost in war, because most wars are religious struggles (and the Vatican is responsible for about 58% of those * smile.*

[CodeCat]

Alias, on 11 Jul 2008, 6:17, said:

There is one thing I still do not get about this place. We cannot share our views of other countries but we can bash their beliefs?

My view on this is that while people can choose their beliefs, people don't choose the country they live in.

[TehKiller]

CodeCat, on 6 Aug 2008, 21:43, said:

My view on this is that while people can choose their beliefs, people don't choose the country they live in.

Actually its the other way around... Its alot harder to change religion than the country youre living in.

Quote

Hell, I want a woman as Pope, maybe then the stubborn bastards will modernize. I'm just tired of all this crap that is supposedly "to strengthen your bond with Christ" and all this does is scare people away (I think the Church would have a lot more followers and would be gaining members instead of losing them if they modernized and stop trying to make everything so serious and ancient. In fact, I think that in a lot of ways Islam is better than Christianity

Sorry m8 but these sentences look a bit of ironic to me.

[Zero]

TehKiller, on 7 Aug 2008, 10:03, said:

CodeCat, on 6 Aug 2008, 21:43, said:

My view on this is that while people can choose their beliefs, people don't choose the country they live in.

Actually its the other way around... Its alot harder to change religion than the country youre living in.

Quote

Hell, I want a woman as Pope, maybe then the stubborn bastards will modernize. I'm just tired of all this crap that is supposedly "to strengthen your bond with Christ" and all this does is scare people away (I think the Church would have a lot more followers and would be gaining members instead of losing them if they modernized and stop trying to make everything so serious and ancient. In fact, I think that in a lot of ways Islam is better than Christianity

Sorry m8 but these sentences look a bit of ironic to me.

Actually, all you need to change religion is to say "I'm tired of this shit, let me try something new." To change the country you live in you need to pay for the visa, stay there for a few years and then pay for the passport. Whatmore, you have a lot of other issues a lot of the time too (such as learning new customs, a new language, and getting used to foods and other things you are not used to). In reality, it's a hell of a lot easier to switch religion because it's cost nothing (unless you want to be a dumb ass scientologist) and also, it's quicker.

Oh, and what do you mean ironic?

[NergiZed]

Zhen Ji, on 10 Jul 2008, 13:50, said:

Scopejim, on 8 Jul 2008, 22:20, said:

I asked my Christian Education teacher about this last year (I'm in a Catholic school so such a class is mandatory) and he told me the reason bishops and priests are always male and not female is because they represent Jesus Christ in performing their duties and it is strange for a woman to "represent" Christ. Honestly I can see a point in this argument but if you ask me, for a person who is deeply rooted in his faith, it wouldn't matter whether he is receiving a sermon from a man or a woman. I think that the main reason for this attitude by the Church is political.

If that's true, correct me if I'm wrong but that seems Sexist.

Well, quite frankly, most religions are. In Chritianity, you've never seen a pope who's a woman (and prolly never will for a LONG time) and prolly will take a while to get Female Bishops. With Islam you've got that whole 'women have half the rights of men, and aren't allowed to do a lot of things'. With Judaism women can't where the yarmulka (those funky hats that jewish men people where).

The only religions that I can't think of sexism is Buddism and Taoism, but I'm petty sure they are as well.

But really, you can't blame them; it's written into their holy scriptures, it's been like that for generations, it's basically law. If you don't want to be sexist, you should prolly not be so zealous and/or pious.

Although religion can change, you sure don't see witch hunting anymore. (I wonder why there were never any 'wizard hunts' )

Edited by NergiZed, 07 August 2008 - 13:26.