Russia and Georgia in Conflict
T-34
08 Aug 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...bel-region.html
wow the same day as the olympics start. T-90 tanks march in as a georgian BM-21 bombardment shook up the capital city. this could be bad. very bad.
Edited by CodeCat, 09 August 2008 - 12:33.
wow the same day as the olympics start. T-90 tanks march in as a georgian BM-21 bombardment shook up the capital city. this could be bad. very bad.
Edited by CodeCat, 09 August 2008 - 12:33.
Dauth
08 Aug 2008
While this is indeed current events allow me to re-iterate the no politics rule.
I just hope no-one is hurt and this can be resolved without serious bloodshed.
Edit: Before this kicks off, they have invaded territory that for the last 18 years has been out of their control but not directly under Russian control.
Edited by Dauth, 08 August 2008 - 19:20.
I just hope no-one is hurt and this can be resolved without serious bloodshed.
Edit: Before this kicks off, they have invaded territory that for the last 18 years has been out of their control but not directly under Russian control.
Edited by Dauth, 08 August 2008 - 19:20.
Ascendancy
08 Aug 2008
Just saw and heard of this on CNN. I really hope it doesn't escalate into some bigger conflict.
Edit: Probably better if I leave that remark out, not gonna get in trouble for it...
Edited by Ascendancy, 08 August 2008 - 19:23.
Edit: Probably better if I leave that remark out, not gonna get in trouble for it...
Edited by Ascendancy, 08 August 2008 - 19:23.
Dutchygamer
08 Aug 2008
If my sources are correct, they didn't invade Russia, only a region supported by Russia, which the Georgians want back... Just for correctnes 
Rayburn
08 Aug 2008
Georgia has invaded South Ossetia, a breakaway province which seeks to become independent from Georgia since the 1990s. The attack was launched to restore the "constitutional order" in the region. Russia is supporting South Ossetia because it does not want Georgia to become stable enough to join the EU or NATO because if that happens, western countries would be obliged to assist Georgia whenever there's future trouble with Russia...And of course there's also oil.
Edited by Rayburn, 08 August 2008 - 20:26.
Edited by Rayburn, 08 August 2008 - 20:26.
CodeCat
08 Aug 2008
I strongly disagree with any kind of attack, but I also disagree with Georgia's measures to control the region. If they really want to be independent that bad, they should be allowed to be.
Ilves
09 Aug 2008
Yep, the object is not Russia, but South Ossetia - a de-facto independent country.
The Georgians pushed hard to break into the capital and did it (as it's situated almost on the border between two countries)... but less than for a half-day and they never controlled it fully - Ossetian militia defended just long enough to Russian army to arrive.
Now the city is cleaned from Georgians because they simpy ran away when they got who's the opposing force
Georgia has lost it war before begining... but leaved 1400 civilians killed. Hope they'll get a big bunch for that
http://en.wikipedia...._Ossetia_(2008)
The Georgians pushed hard to break into the capital and did it (as it's situated almost on the border between two countries)... but less than for a half-day and they never controlled it fully - Ossetian militia defended just long enough to Russian army to arrive.
Now the city is cleaned from Georgians because they simpy ran away when they got who's the opposing force
Georgia has lost it war before begining... but leaved 1400 civilians killed. Hope they'll get a big bunch for that
http://en.wikipedia...._Ossetia_(2008)
Thunderstruck
09 Aug 2008
Do i detect politics at play here?
On subject...
Is not Russia's economy shit, or am I ill-informed? And TBH, I won't be surprised if georgia gets Nato, or most likely US support. This country, and its politicians....
On subject...
Is not Russia's economy shit, or am I ill-informed? And TBH, I won't be surprised if georgia gets Nato, or most likely US support. This country, and its politicians....
logical2u
09 Aug 2008
Can someone edit the title?
Technically, Russia invaded a breakaway state of Georgia.
Which was invaded by Georgia.
But it's a state owned by Georgia, so it's not an invasion, it's a police action...
but can a police action get countered by an invasio---ARGH MY BRAIN.
Seriously though politics FTL, Olympics FTW, South Ossetia sucks to be you right now but seriously Georgia and Russia open up a humanitarian corridor or you'll be starting another massacre.
Technically, Russia invaded a breakaway state of Georgia.
Which was invaded by Georgia.
But it's a state owned by Georgia, so it's not an invasion, it's a police action...
but can a police action get countered by an invasio---ARGH MY BRAIN.
Seriously though politics FTL, Olympics FTW, South Ossetia sucks to be you right now but seriously Georgia and Russia open up a humanitarian corridor or you'll be starting another massacre.
CommanderJB
09 Aug 2008
Mmm. Not a good thing to have conflict anywhere in the world, but I have to say that I'm partly on South Ossetia's side here. One of the fundamental rights recognised under the U.N. charter is the right of people to national self-determination, and while I realise that geopolitics and nationalism make the situation infinitely more complex than this, to have to invade your own country seems to illustrate just how much that right is being denied. Hope that's not too political, but simply this isn't a good thing and I don't approve of the use of arms in this situation at all.
Thunderstruck
09 Aug 2008
What shall they do, have a cup of tea and strumpets?
You do realise that man chooses the easiest way to do things, which is by force. And if that is the way it will happen, people will die eventually. That "war" is no better or worse then The war in Iraq, but it is still no surprise. I expect this to boil over soon, but there will be more death. Now, I am not against war, but it is still not good to know that people are dying, and be helpless to take action. In the same sense, look what happens after war... Monetary income goes up. Such has been the case in the past. The fact that Georgia invaded a region ( I call it that since it is not a country) for such a reason is rather dumb. And the fact that Russia is helping Ossetia is also no surprise. Remember who they are fighting? GEORGIA! They had slaughtered Georgia in the past, so maybe they are just helping because it is simply a good excuse and disguise. It's simple.... Really, it is.
You do realise that man chooses the easiest way to do things, which is by force. And if that is the way it will happen, people will die eventually. That "war" is no better or worse then The war in Iraq, but it is still no surprise. I expect this to boil over soon, but there will be more death. Now, I am not against war, but it is still not good to know that people are dying, and be helpless to take action. In the same sense, look what happens after war... Monetary income goes up. Such has been the case in the past. The fact that Georgia invaded a region ( I call it that since it is not a country) for such a reason is rather dumb. And the fact that Russia is helping Ossetia is also no surprise. Remember who they are fighting? GEORGIA! They had slaughtered Georgia in the past, so maybe they are just helping because it is simply a good excuse and disguise. It's simple.... Really, it is.
Hobbesy
09 Aug 2008
UPDATE: Russia has officially declared war on Georgia. The shit has hit the fan.
Soul
09 Aug 2008
Høbbesy, on 9 Aug 2008, 0:40, said:
UPDATE: Russia has officially declared war on Georgia. The shit has hit the fan.
Ah shit, things are going to get a hell of a lot worse
.Edit: Reactions taken from Wikipedia.
Quote
Armenia - The Armenian Foreign Ministry said Yerevan is closely monitoring the situation and urging the conflicting parties to call a halt to military operations. "We are certainly concerned about the situation and hope that a solution will be found very quickly," Deputy Foreign Minister Gegham Gharibjanian told RFE/RL. "We hope that the parties will make maximum efforts to quickly stop bloodshed and find peaceful solutions to contentious issues," he said.[97]
Azerbaijan - A spokesman for the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry, Khazar Ibrahim, said that the Georgian actions were in accord with international law and that Azerbaijan recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia.
Canada - Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, David Emerson, released the following statement: "Canada is gravely concerned about the recent violence in South Ossetia, and we deplore the casualties that have resulted. We call for an immediate halt to the hostilities and strongly urge all parties involved to display restraint in words and deeds, and to respect national boundaries. Canada stands ready to work with its partners in the United Nations and in the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe to support efforts toward a peaceful resolution of the conflict."
China - China called for worldwide truce coinciding with the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.
Estonia - The Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement on August 8th calling for an immediate stop to the hostilities to avoid further casualties, and starting peaceful negotiations. The statement suggests that the basis for these negotiations could be the proposal by the Georgian president to guarantee broad autonomy for South-Ossetia. For a quick solution the European Union and OSCE are expected to respond adequately and international efforts should be closely coordinated. Estonia supports the intermediation proposal by Finland. Estonia is ready, in keeping with its capability, to take part in humanitarian assistance.
Finland - Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, also serving as the OSCE chairman-in-office, has been in contact with both Tbilisi and Tskhinvali, urging the parties to stop any military action and to try and restore direct talks instead. He has decided to deploy his Special Envoy immediately to Georgia, and is also himself preparing to travel to the region.
France - France has been trying to urge both sides reach a ceasefire.
Germany - Foreign Minister Steinmeier has stated being "appalled by the escalation of violence" and demanded that "all combat has to be ceased immediately" on August 8th. He urged the international community prevent "tensions, violence and looming war" from "spreading throughout the Caucasus".
Iceland - The Icelandic Minister for Foreign Affairs Ingibjörg Sólrún Gísladóttir has in a statement from the Ministry called on the belligerents to preserve civilians and demands a quick end to the hostilities with a peaceful solution.
Israel - On August 5th, it was reported by Stratfor and Russia Today that Israel planned to halt arms sales to Georgia because of Russian objections.
Kazakhstan - Following Vladimir Putin's remarks, the President of Kazakhstan, Nursultan Nazarbayev, said "The Georgian leadership was not right when it failed to inform [other nations] on its actions toward South Ossetia and about higher tensions taking place there". Interfax also reported that Nazarbayev "agreed with Putin's view that countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States should make an assessment of the situation and undertake efforts to halt it".[107]
Latvia - The Latvian Minister of Foreign Affairs phoned to Georgian Minister of Foreign Affairs and stated that Latvia supports territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia and stressed that use of military force should be avoided and current situation should be solved in negotiations. He also said that Russia should use its influence in South Ossetia to stop Ossetian provocations and expressed hope that Russia will not get militarily involved.
Lithuania - On August 7th, President of Lithuania, Valdas Adamkus, received a phone call from the President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili. Saakashvili asked Lithuania’s president to help inform heads of the European Union and other western states of the situation in the region.[109] Adamkus assured that Lithuania would inform other European partners about the situation in Georgia and would seek adequate attention and assistance from the European Union in dealing with the situation. On August 8, Lithuanian Foreign Affairs Minister Mr. Petras Vaitiekūnas was sent to Georgia. He will be there to inform the EU partners about the situation in Georgia. Lithuania is also evacuating about 50 of its citizens from conflict regions.
Netherlands - Dutch prime minister Jan-Peter Balkenende spoke with Vladimir Putin and Nicolas Sarkozy in Beijing where expressed his concerns on the situation. He pointed out the importance of preventing as much violence as possible and how there should be worked on achieving stabilisation.
Poland - Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has published the following statement on its website: "MFA of Poland is very disturbed by the situation in the region of South Ossetia in Georgia. MFA thinks it is unacceptable for foreign military forces to attack Georgian territory. MFA is calling to both sides of the conflict to cease fire and return to negotiations. MFA reminds that it is important to provide safety for international humanitarian organisations, especially OBWE and Red Cross International and safely evacuate civilians from the war zone. MFA is calling state and international organisations to engage in the process of solving the conflict in the region of South Ossetia in Georgia and to help bring the situation back to normal while respecting Georgian borders
Sweden - Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt said in a statement: "The way in which the situation in South Ossetia has deteriorated is cause for profound concern. It is extremely important that all those involved show restraint and play their part in bringing about a political solution," ... "I am particularly concerned about the impact of the conflict on civilians. Georgia and Russia are dangerously close to war and there is a great risk of this spreading to other parts of the Caucasus." Bildt further stated that the crisis is due to "provocations from the South Ossetian side" and that the Georgian forces are trying to "restore the constitutional order". and that the Russian bombing of Georgia is "very worrying and will demand a forceful reaction from the United Nations and the European Union."
Turkey - Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said that the fighting is a grave concern for Turkey, which neighbors Georgia. Erdoğan has called for an immediate cease-fire and has said that he would call Georgian and Russian leaders to urge restraint if necessary. Later on that day, Turkey agreed to a Georgian request to supply 30-40 MW of electricity to Georgia.
Ukraine - The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine called to all sides to stop fire immediately and to start solving the problem by negotiations. Ukraine has confirmed its position of support of Georgian territorial integrity and sovereignty. It was stated that Ukraine is ready to make its contribution to peaceful resolution of the region's conflict within the framework of international diplomatic efforts. Ukranian president Viktor Yushchenko, has sent his special representative Kostyantyn Yelisyeyev to Tbilisi as a result of phone conversation of Georgian President Saakashvili. The aims of the visit are consultations with Georgian authorities and representatives of OSCE, investigation of the situation in the region and presenting of the Ukrainian position on peaceful resolution of conflict. The Foreign Ministry also called on Russia to remove its troops from Georgia and pressure the "separatist regime" to negotiations.
United Kingdom - The Foreign and Commonwealth Office states on its website that it is 'monitoring developments in Georgia following news that there has been heavy fighting between Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists. We urge an immediate ceasefire in the fighting in South Ossetia and for a resumption of direct dialogue between all parties.'
United States - After the GMT 4:00 8 August UN Security Council meeting, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried said that it appeared that the South Ossetians were the provokers of the violence. Fried said, "We have urged the Russians to urge their South Ossetian friends to pull back and show greater restraint. And we believe that the Russians ... are trying to do just that." White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said on 8 August, "All sides should bring an immediate end to the violence and engage in direct talks to resolve this matter peacefully." Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice later stated: "We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil."
Azerbaijan - A spokesman for the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry, Khazar Ibrahim, said that the Georgian actions were in accord with international law and that Azerbaijan recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia.
Canada - Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, David Emerson, released the following statement: "Canada is gravely concerned about the recent violence in South Ossetia, and we deplore the casualties that have resulted. We call for an immediate halt to the hostilities and strongly urge all parties involved to display restraint in words and deeds, and to respect national boundaries. Canada stands ready to work with its partners in the United Nations and in the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe to support efforts toward a peaceful resolution of the conflict."
China - China called for worldwide truce coinciding with the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.
Estonia - The Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement on August 8th calling for an immediate stop to the hostilities to avoid further casualties, and starting peaceful negotiations. The statement suggests that the basis for these negotiations could be the proposal by the Georgian president to guarantee broad autonomy for South-Ossetia. For a quick solution the European Union and OSCE are expected to respond adequately and international efforts should be closely coordinated. Estonia supports the intermediation proposal by Finland. Estonia is ready, in keeping with its capability, to take part in humanitarian assistance.
Finland - Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, also serving as the OSCE chairman-in-office, has been in contact with both Tbilisi and Tskhinvali, urging the parties to stop any military action and to try and restore direct talks instead. He has decided to deploy his Special Envoy immediately to Georgia, and is also himself preparing to travel to the region.
France - France has been trying to urge both sides reach a ceasefire.
Germany - Foreign Minister Steinmeier has stated being "appalled by the escalation of violence" and demanded that "all combat has to be ceased immediately" on August 8th. He urged the international community prevent "tensions, violence and looming war" from "spreading throughout the Caucasus".
Iceland - The Icelandic Minister for Foreign Affairs Ingibjörg Sólrún Gísladóttir has in a statement from the Ministry called on the belligerents to preserve civilians and demands a quick end to the hostilities with a peaceful solution.
Israel - On August 5th, it was reported by Stratfor and Russia Today that Israel planned to halt arms sales to Georgia because of Russian objections.
Kazakhstan - Following Vladimir Putin's remarks, the President of Kazakhstan, Nursultan Nazarbayev, said "The Georgian leadership was not right when it failed to inform [other nations] on its actions toward South Ossetia and about higher tensions taking place there". Interfax also reported that Nazarbayev "agreed with Putin's view that countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States should make an assessment of the situation and undertake efforts to halt it".[107]
Latvia - The Latvian Minister of Foreign Affairs phoned to Georgian Minister of Foreign Affairs and stated that Latvia supports territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia and stressed that use of military force should be avoided and current situation should be solved in negotiations. He also said that Russia should use its influence in South Ossetia to stop Ossetian provocations and expressed hope that Russia will not get militarily involved.
Lithuania - On August 7th, President of Lithuania, Valdas Adamkus, received a phone call from the President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili. Saakashvili asked Lithuania’s president to help inform heads of the European Union and other western states of the situation in the region.[109] Adamkus assured that Lithuania would inform other European partners about the situation in Georgia and would seek adequate attention and assistance from the European Union in dealing with the situation. On August 8, Lithuanian Foreign Affairs Minister Mr. Petras Vaitiekūnas was sent to Georgia. He will be there to inform the EU partners about the situation in Georgia. Lithuania is also evacuating about 50 of its citizens from conflict regions.
Netherlands - Dutch prime minister Jan-Peter Balkenende spoke with Vladimir Putin and Nicolas Sarkozy in Beijing where expressed his concerns on the situation. He pointed out the importance of preventing as much violence as possible and how there should be worked on achieving stabilisation.
Poland - Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has published the following statement on its website: "MFA of Poland is very disturbed by the situation in the region of South Ossetia in Georgia. MFA thinks it is unacceptable for foreign military forces to attack Georgian territory. MFA is calling to both sides of the conflict to cease fire and return to negotiations. MFA reminds that it is important to provide safety for international humanitarian organisations, especially OBWE and Red Cross International and safely evacuate civilians from the war zone. MFA is calling state and international organisations to engage in the process of solving the conflict in the region of South Ossetia in Georgia and to help bring the situation back to normal while respecting Georgian borders
Sweden - Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt said in a statement: "The way in which the situation in South Ossetia has deteriorated is cause for profound concern. It is extremely important that all those involved show restraint and play their part in bringing about a political solution," ... "I am particularly concerned about the impact of the conflict on civilians. Georgia and Russia are dangerously close to war and there is a great risk of this spreading to other parts of the Caucasus." Bildt further stated that the crisis is due to "provocations from the South Ossetian side" and that the Georgian forces are trying to "restore the constitutional order". and that the Russian bombing of Georgia is "very worrying and will demand a forceful reaction from the United Nations and the European Union."
Turkey - Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said that the fighting is a grave concern for Turkey, which neighbors Georgia. Erdoğan has called for an immediate cease-fire and has said that he would call Georgian and Russian leaders to urge restraint if necessary. Later on that day, Turkey agreed to a Georgian request to supply 30-40 MW of electricity to Georgia.
Ukraine - The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine called to all sides to stop fire immediately and to start solving the problem by negotiations. Ukraine has confirmed its position of support of Georgian territorial integrity and sovereignty. It was stated that Ukraine is ready to make its contribution to peaceful resolution of the region's conflict within the framework of international diplomatic efforts. Ukranian president Viktor Yushchenko, has sent his special representative Kostyantyn Yelisyeyev to Tbilisi as a result of phone conversation of Georgian President Saakashvili. The aims of the visit are consultations with Georgian authorities and representatives of OSCE, investigation of the situation in the region and presenting of the Ukrainian position on peaceful resolution of conflict. The Foreign Ministry also called on Russia to remove its troops from Georgia and pressure the "separatist regime" to negotiations.
United Kingdom - The Foreign and Commonwealth Office states on its website that it is 'monitoring developments in Georgia following news that there has been heavy fighting between Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists. We urge an immediate ceasefire in the fighting in South Ossetia and for a resumption of direct dialogue between all parties.'
United States - After the GMT 4:00 8 August UN Security Council meeting, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried said that it appeared that the South Ossetians were the provokers of the violence. Fried said, "We have urged the Russians to urge their South Ossetian friends to pull back and show greater restraint. And we believe that the Russians ... are trying to do just that." White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said on 8 August, "All sides should bring an immediate end to the violence and engage in direct talks to resolve this matter peacefully." Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice later stated: "We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil."
Edited by Soul, 09 August 2008 - 05:05.
Ilves
09 Aug 2008
Quote
Edit: Reactions taken from Wikipedia.
And what? It's predictable that everybody said "oh plz, don't do that, be nice bunnies"
Quote
but can a police action get countered by an invasio---ARGH MY BRAIN.
POLICE ACTION? :wahhhhhaa: Man, where have you bean? They invaded Ossetia with tanks and armed soldiers, previously razing the capital to ground using BM-21 Grads and bombers (without any respect to that, that they are firing on sleeping people in the city). How often does police in USA uses MLRSes'? And tanks? Erh?
Russia just took Georgian bombers back to the ground and pushed those guys out of the city, where they were maraudering and randomnly shooting at anything that moves. Also Russia is now helping the surviving civilians to survive after Georgia's little party (most of the city destroyed, every second building was caught in flames).
Dutchygamer
09 Aug 2008
I've recently finished Call of Duty 4, and now that game seems to become real. That's very, very scary
LCPL Carrow
09 Aug 2008
It looks like things are gonna be a repeat of previous Russia-Georgia conflicts. Sucks, to be sure, but you jump between two guys with AKs pointed at each other and try and convince them not to shoot. Yeah the fuck right, but that's the only way this shit'll end anytime soon. All the political "oh please stop" bullshit is nothing but the obligatory bullshit that diplomacy demands.
BTW, first post from Iraq
BTW, first post from Iraq
Dauth
09 Aug 2008
Carrow does have a good point, it is hard to force people to be diplomatic when you can't smack their heads together.
How is Iraq? hope you get through your active time safely mate.
How is Iraq? hope you get through your active time safely mate.
CodeCat
09 Aug 2008
But on the other hand, if you figuratively smack their heads together, you're involving yourself in someone else's matters.
NergiZed
09 Aug 2008
I hear that Georgia is pulling all of their troops back from Iraq; surprisingly, they are the 3rd biggest foriegn contributor to Iraq, right behind the US and UK at about 2k troops. (here)
I also hear that Russia has lost 4 aircraft to AA fire already.
Georgia also picked a great time for this comflict, right during the Olympic opening Ceremony.
Though I think Russia's gonna win this one. BUT they don't have the home-field advantage, they currently don't have the numerical advantage, and they currently only have ONE supply line over the caucas mts range. But eventually, Russia will prolly suceed.
More details here
I also expect the ShangHai Corp. to do nothing, as well as NATO. The UN's prolly going to do something, but I think it's something that doesn't involve bullets.
Update: Death toll already at 1,500! Which surpasses the amount of US troops that died in Afganistan, 3-fold.
So far 10 Russian planes have been downed by AA fire.
Apparently some Georgian warplanes have been downed as well. (here
Jesus Christ!
Edited by NergiZed, 09 August 2008 - 10:18.
I also hear that Russia has lost 4 aircraft to AA fire already.
Georgia also picked a great time for this comflict, right during the Olympic opening Ceremony.
Though I think Russia's gonna win this one. BUT they don't have the home-field advantage, they currently don't have the numerical advantage, and they currently only have ONE supply line over the caucas mts range. But eventually, Russia will prolly suceed.
More details here
I also expect the ShangHai Corp. to do nothing, as well as NATO. The UN's prolly going to do something, but I think it's something that doesn't involve bullets.
Update: Death toll already at 1,500! Which surpasses the amount of US troops that died in Afganistan, 3-fold.
So far 10 Russian planes have been downed by AA fire.
Apparently some Georgian warplanes have been downed as well. (here
Jesus Christ!
Edited by NergiZed, 09 August 2008 - 10:18.
Dutchygamer
09 Aug 2008
I hope the UN doesn't send an army there, or else I can guess who will end up there (sorry for the politicness, but it's the truth)...
Dauth
09 Aug 2008
It's a war, as long as no one goes bashing Russia, Georgia or any other nation/political entity then the points of enlightened self interest I will allow.
