91 replies to this topic

[Alias]

It would be nice to get another staff response. It feels like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

Nem, on 30 Aug 2008, 6:56, said:

Any idea how many people would come forward if they did not fear staffer backlash? There are many that feel the same way.

Just so everyone knows again. PLEASE state your opinion. Nothing here breaks the rules or anything major.

C. Boidy, on 30 Aug 2008, 7:05, said:

I can only support the points brought up by Alias. Really, I have nothing more to say.

Thanks, man. The support of people like you should hopefully help this.

[Kichō]

Just like Boidy said I support this because of the points you made, though some of the staff ain't that bad. >_>

[Alias]

Zhen Ji, on 30 Aug 2008, 7:12, said:

Just like Boidy said I support this because of the points you made, though some of the staff ain't that bad. >_>

It would be nice to tell me which points. Never did I say all the staff were bad, although a large portion of them (in my eyes) are either incompetent or inactive.

[Nem]

Post edited, sorry for any confusion. I don't have much of a problem with staffer moderation skills. I just want them to take a more active role on keeping the forum moving. This community is built upon a dieing game. If the people with the power to act don't, it wont last, and all of these issues will be meaningless.

Edited by Nem, 29 August 2008 - 21:25.

[WarMenace]

I agree with Alias too, that's all im gonna say.

[Alias]

I can see you lurking, staff, respond or agree.

[Jok3r]

Alias, on 29 Aug 2008, 5:38, said:

I was told to create a seperate thread for this, so here it is. Before I start - "staff", "administration" and "leadership" are all interchangeable. In this context they all mean the same thing - any member with moderating powers over a large sector of this forum. Also in b4 huge slabs of text.

While the majority of the staff perform their job fine, there is a select few who I feel are lacking.
Some of them think their position somehow grants them immunity to the rules, some others don't even know what the rules are, and even some of them don't do a thing for the public sector (in my eyes, the staff serving the community should be their first and foremost priority). This has been an issue for a while now, but recent events have made me take this more seriously.

I do understand the staff have lives outside of this place, but seriously... if you haven't actually used those powers you have at least once a fortnight minimum, then in my eyes, I really don't see any point in you having them. I currently think the leadership sector of this forum is far too large. Yes, there are timezone holes, however - this situation is like a kitchen. You do not add fresh meat on top of the pile of decomposing meat. You chuck away the rotten meat and replace it, not add to it. There was a gargantuan amount of European staff, and a tiny amount of staff east or west of Europe. However, you've done a good job with the Global Mod idea to combat this. It's a good idea, but I feel it has been executed incorrectly. If I were running the place, moderators should only be promoted if they are active in a good 80% at least of the public sector, and at least have had some role in the private sector. Too many staff just leads to a power struggle, which then leads to the forum becoming more and more of a "police state", so to say.

Now onto the my pet peeve - the rules. The rules should:

• Apply to everyone, regarless of status (otherwise you'll soon be having "person x did, so why can't I?"). I have spotted a few "higher ups" who have broken rules.
  
• All apply. A rule is a rule. Enforce one of them, enforce them all.
  
• If you aren't going to enforce them, remove them or modify them so they are right. If you aren't going to remove signatures wider than 500px, change it to the actual cut-off you WILL remove them at, for example if you're not going to remove it until it's greater than 600px wide, change the rule! (I have noted a few staff who have broken the width limit, and some who have even broken the height limit and others who have broken other rules). Cue point #1 in this case.
  
• Be known by all. ESPECIALLY in the case of staff - if the staff member doesn't know what they are actually enforcing, why are they doing the job? This is like having a whole bunch of cops on the street not knowing what is legal and what is illegal.

On a closing note, yes I like my metaphors. The staff of this place will be looked at in a much higher tone if you are less hypocritical and actually know what you are doing. Also - everything in this thread is entirely going by the rules (free speech, constructive criticism), so no locking this just yet. And to end this post with a cliché - "too many cooks spoil the broth".

...
Ok, I've disagreed with you on so many things before you, Alias, but on this, I have to stand with you. Step up, or step down... this is going way to far. Yes, its a forum, yes it all comes down to whoever is paying the bills. However... if you expect anyone to stick around, I'd heed his words...
Swimmer

[retry_1]

i agree with alias' original post fully.

and i loled at eve's mentioning of giving Gmod to people who want to help, or have helped the community. no offense to commanderJB here, i think he'll do a good job, but boidy and other longtime members have wanted to help, and have helped the community a lot longer, and more frequently than he has.

Edited by retry_1, 29 August 2008 - 21:52.

[Nem]

Nem, on 29 Aug 2008, 17:18, said:

Post edited, sorry for any confusion. I don't have much of a problem with staffer moderation skills. I just want them to take a more active role on keeping the forum moving. This community is built upon a dieing game. If the people with the power to act don't, it wont last, and all of these issues will be meaningless.

Please! Please don't let this slip threw the cracks! The more important issue is the community's growth. I rarely see the number of registered users out number the guests, They are out there. We need to get the staff to take a more active roll on getting these people signed up.

Edited by Nem, 29 August 2008 - 22:19.

[Sgt. Nuker]

retry_1, on 29 Aug 2008, 17:51, said:

but boidy and other longtime members have wanted to help, and have helped the community a lot longer, and more frequently than he has.

From what I remember, the reason you guys wouldn't be promoted is because you "wanted" it and it's known to the top brass. That's the only reason I think that's keeping you guys out of the upper echelons, and to a point, I believe that reason to be ridiculous.

[Wizard]

We aren't quiet without reason. There has been some apparent animosity towards staff members here of late and sometimes it is better to let things progress than intervene all the time, also it is helpful to hear your views without our voices clouding the issue or arguing. We are certainly not going to hammer down on anyone, anyone who can produce a criticism or criticisms in the way it has been done here.

In fact I am glad we have stepped back from this for the most part. It is very good to see this discussion take place in the way it has done and to be honest I am feeling rather proud about the way everyone feels about this forum and community (as are some of my colleagues). There has been a real lack of activity in some quarters, there is no denying that. It is worrying that there are Project Leaders who have threatened to walk away from ES due to this fact as well. The goal here has always been to support the mods first and foremost and it worries me that certain things have gone so far.

If you hold a title here then you have a responsibility to follow through on. This is clear. There are always going to be other issues that can interfere, this is RL and it should always take priority, but that doesn't mean that the community should suffer as a result. Sometimes there are bigger issues at stake. The overriding duty for any moderator is to do what is good for the community. Here I agree with you Alias.

Edited by Wizard, 29 August 2008 - 22:19.

[Alias]

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:16, said:

In fact I am glad we have stepped back from this for the most part. It is very good to see this discussion take place in the way it has done and to be honest I am feeling rather proud about the way everyone feels about this forum and community (as are some of my colleagues). There has been a real lack of activity in some quarters, there is no denying that. It is worrying that there are Project Leaders who have threaten to walk away from ES due to this fact as well. The goal here has always been to support the mods first and foremost and it worries me that certain things have gone so far.

Why? The more staff input into this the better. I want to see how YOU feel about the inner workings, as just a few who aren't staff know how it works. If there is lack of activity, you replace the "stale bread" with "fresh bread". You don't want the mould from the stale bread seeping onto the fresh bread. My point here is that some staff are past their lifetime. The novelty has worn off, they are inactive and they know it.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:16, said:

If you hold a title here then you have a responsibility to follow through on. This is clear. There are always going to be other issues that can interfere, this is RL and it should always take priority, but that doesn't mean that the community should suffer as a result. Sometimes there are bigger issues at stake. The overriding duty for any moderator is to do what is good for the community. Here I agree with you Alias.

Then you would agree the ones who do not do their job to be inactive?

[Mbob61]

I gotta agree with alias and all the points he has put forward.
I don not want to name names but even in the short time i have been on this forum i have seen many issues with the moderating team.
To cap it all of in my opinion was the firing of the now named Warboss Nooka who did the job better than anyone in my opinion. Whatever the reason was for the firing doesn't matter, but the firing of the best staffer imo really did the damage.I d
I do not want this to turn into a war about the firing of nooka but thats just my view

Mike

Edited by mbob61, 29 August 2008 - 22:34.

[Dauth]

Firstly, Wizard here speaks for me, I agree with everything he said.

Wizard, on 29 Aug 2008, 23:16, said:

We aren't quiet without reason. There has been some apparent animosity towards staff members here of late and sometimes it is better to let things progress than intervene all the time, also it is helpful to hear your views without our voices clouding the issue or arguing. We are certainly not going to hammer down on anyone, anyone who can produce a criticism or criticisms in the way it has been done here.

In fact I am glad we have stepped back from this for the most part. It is very good to see this discussion take place in the way it has done and to be honest I am feeling rather proud about the way everyone feels about this forum and community (as are some of my colleagues). There has been a real lack of activity in some quarters, there is no denying that. It is worrying that there are Project Leaders who have threatened to walk away from ES due to this fact as well. The goal here has always been to support the mods first and foremost and it worries me that certain things have gone so far.

If you hold a title here then you have a responsibility to follow through on. This is clear. There are always going to be other issues that can interfere, this is RL and it should always take priority, but that doesn't mean that the community should suffer as a result. Sometimes there are bigger issues at stake. The overriding duty for any moderator is to do what is good for the community. Here I agree with you Alias.

mbob61, on 29 Aug 2008, 23:33, said:

I gotta agree with alias and all the points he has put forward.
I don not want to name names but even in the short time i have been on this forum i have seen many issues with the moderating team.
To cap it all of in my opinion was the firing of the now named Warboss Nooka who did the job better than anyone in my opinion. Whatever the reason was for the firing doesn't matter, but the firing of the best staffer imo really did the damage.I d
I do not want this to turn into a war about the firing of nooka but thats just my view

Mike

I too don't want to see a flame war started, especially over events over 6 months old.

I would much rather people discussed the topic Alias brought up.

Edited by Dauth, 29 August 2008 - 22:41.

[Mbob61]

hence why i posted that i did not want it to be about that.
Just my view. *facepalms* just pretend i didn't write that then.

Mike

[Overdose]

You guys believe I do a bad job?

[Alias]

Overdose, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:58, said:

You guys believe I do a bad job?

You're on my competent list, don't worry.

[Slightly Wonky Robob]

Wiz speaks for me too, I don't really have much more to say on the matter.

[Alias]

Respond to this then.

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:22, said:

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:16, said:

In fact I am glad we have stepped back from this for the most part. It is very good to see this discussion take place in the way it has done and to be honest I am feeling rather proud about the way everyone feels about this forum and community (as are some of my colleagues). There has been a real lack of activity in some quarters, there is no denying that. It is worrying that there are Project Leaders who have threaten to walk away from ES due to this fact as well. The goal here has always been to support the mods first and foremost and it worries me that certain things have gone so far.

Why? The more staff input into this the better. I want to see how YOU feel about the inner workings, as just a few who aren't staff know how it works. If there is lack of activity, you replace the "stale bread" with "fresh bread". You don't want the mould from the stale bread seeping onto the fresh bread. My point here is that some staff are past their lifetime. The novelty has worn off, they are inactive and they know it.

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 8:16, said:

If you hold a title here then you have a responsibility to follow through on. This is clear. There are always going to be other issues that can interfere, this is RL and it should always take priority, but that doesn't mean that the community should suffer as a result. Sometimes there are bigger issues at stake. The overriding duty for any moderator is to do what is good for the community. Here I agree with you Alias.

Then you would agree the ones who do not do their job to be inactive?

[Wizard]

There isn't anything that I can add to this discussion about the "inner workings" of ES that is of benefit that I haven't already said. There is a lack of activity, granted, being on the "inside" doesn't mean that I can add anything else to that here. There are somethings that aren't spoken about in public here, be it mod work or staff work. That is the same all over the world.

I have agreed with your points Alias, there is nothing else I will say beyond that.

[Alias]

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 9:35, said:

I have agreed with your points Alias, there is nothing else I will say beyond that.

So you agree that inactive moderators should be honourable demoted?

[Whitey]

To go off on Nuker's point of those "wanting" the position being made unable to attain it: I too believe this to be one of the most moronic rules ever put into action. Everybody "wants" a position above everybody else, even if only for the shiny badge. If noobdy "wanted" to be put into a higher position, society would collapse.

Let's look at Barack Obama, for example. Did he attain his position by refusing to be vocal about his desire to run a country? If you answered "yes" to that question, please, cease your reading of this post, I do not wish to waste your time.

No, real leadership requires a desire to lead. There has to be a motivation to commit to a job, even if it is an enjoyable one.

Yes, long ago I was quite open about the fact that I wouldn't mind being a staffer. I still wouldn't. In fact, I'd enjoy it. And, in fact, I think I deserve it more than the vast majority of members here, including some of the staffers. Does this make me incapable of leadership? No, it does not. Just because we admit that we wish that we could be raised to a higher position in the community does not, by any means, make us immature, incompetent, or any such adjective to describe an individual incapable of holding an occupation on a forum.
________

Now then, here are a few of my own issues with teh forum administration:
-The Administrators outnumber any other position of enforcement on the forum.
-There appears to be a touch of favoritism.
-Forgiveness is all but unattainable in the eyes of the staff.
-Throughout my years here, there has always been somewhat of a membrane between the staff and standard members, where the staff take on an arrogant attitude that shines down on everybody else. Of course, this couldn't be reflected in any way, ever.

I'm sure I could rattle off a number of others, but I'm not interested in doing so at the moment.
________

On a slightly related note: I really don't understand the criteria necessary for becoming staff in the first place, or, for that matter, an administrator. In the past, there have been some issues with staff that have really boggled me. I remember asking myself "And this person is held in a respectable position... why?". This has gotten better in the forum today, but I doubt it has anything to do with rigid decisions made by the administration.

In fact I'm willing to bet that this place is only active for two reasons: It's been around a long time, and a few decent mods are hosted here.

I might have more to say on this later.

-Boidy

Edited by C. Boidy, 29 August 2008 - 23:47.

[Dauth]

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 0:35, said:

There isn't anything that I can add to this discussion about the "inner workings" of ES that is of benefit that I haven't already said. There is a lack of activity, granted, being on the "inside" doesn't mean that I can add anything else to that here. There are somethings that aren't spoken about in public here, be it mod work or staff work. That is the same all over the world.

I have agreed with your points Alias, there is nothing else I will say beyond that.

Alias, on 30 Aug 2008, 0:39, said:

Wizard, on 30 Aug 2008, 9:35, said:

I have agreed with your points Alias, there is nothing else I will say beyond that.

So you agree that inactive moderators should be honourable demoted?

It would be ideal for inactive moderators to become active again.

[Whitey]

Key Word: Ideal.

-Boidy

[Alias]

Dauth, on 30 Aug 2008, 9:50, said:

It would be ideal for inactive moderators to become active again.

Sadly we don't live in an ideal world.