77 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

Niddy, on 30 Aug 2008, 15:50, said:

As I have sadid before, I am fairly happy with the way things are run here. Things go smoothly and we are wel privelidged members.
That said. I don't think it's those who roam around the forums with the "staff" badge. I see Wizard, Bob, Dauth and Overdose regularly involving themselves int he community, as well as keeping things under control, while their methods are sometimes just "Locky. Shut Up" it does prevent flames spreading, and the place is generally well maintained thanks to them.

More of the problem to me is the admins in the community, I only really see E.V.E. around, getting involved with community. With the odd visit from Codecat to post something interesting, and Comr4de and The Hunter exchanging funnies in the "Funny Quotes" thread. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, or maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Maybe there is more going on behind the scenes, maybe they do have more going on with RL, Mod work and Social Lives, and that is generally more important than here. But I'd like to see at least some effort to get to know the people that take the time to sign up on their forum. To accept them as, even friends. That's something I havent seen in a while since we've had new members joining, and it's something I really miss about this community.

That's a problem mentioned in State of Management Part I, Niddy. We don't see enough action from some high-ups to really dignify their positions. Maybe they do a TON of stuff behind the scenes, but how are we to know? And for this reason, the admins need to either re-elect some new staff that will do more or prove to us members that the current staff is already working hard.

On a separate note, I'd like to hear from more people if they'd support Nem's community leader idea.

Edited by Ghostrider, 30 August 2008 - 20:08.

[Dutchygamer]

I'm actually surprised this still ain't locked...
Anyways, I like the idea of Nem, but how do you want to do it? You can't have the whole community vote, because that's impossible to do. The group is much too large and not everyone would have the time to vote.
Also, why won't the admins mix into this discussion? We have only heard the opinions of the 'normal' members and the staff, but none of the admins IIRC. Or are they wise and keep out of this one...
Also2: what is wrong with the idea of WarMenance? As long as the forum runs good, it's ok for me...
*takes cover for incoming flame bombardments*

[WarMenace]

This is just, well, gone overboard. I hope you guys notice you're not in charge of the forums... The staff WILL take action.

[Sharpnessism]

WarMenace, on 30 Aug 2008, 16:40, said:

This is just, well, gone overboard. I hope you guys notice you're not in charge of the forums... The staff WILL take action.

honestly, stop being such a stickler for rules, people have been here for a long time and they know the consequences

[Whitey]

Actually, the community is in charge of the forums. At any point, we could desert them, leaving the place desolate. Not much of a forum anymore at that point.

The only reason such an event hasn't occurred is because of the fact that some members really just don't care enough about the situation.

-Boidy

[Lizzie]

C. Boidy, on 30 Aug 2008, 16:44, said:

Actually, the community is in charge of the forums. At any point, we could desert them, leaving the place desolate. Not much of a forum anymore at that point.

The only reason such an event hasn't occurred is because of the fact that some members really just don't care enough about the situation.

-Boidy

Correct on both points.
Also as I pointed out in another thread, pay no attention to Warmenace and his loyalist doomspeak. Frankly it's getting old rather quickly.

[Nid]

WarMenace, on 30 Aug 2008, 21:40, said:

I hope you guys notice you're not in charge of the forums.

Ahem.

WarMenace92, on 30 Aug 2008, 19:12, said:

Either way you put it, it ends now.

Neither are you.
Now asking nicely; Stop acting like you are please, it's rather irritating.

[Soul]

Might as well say something instead of lurking the topic like the last one.

I support Nem's idea for a community leader, could help bridge the gap between members and Staff. I ain't really got much else to say, but I do wish the Staff and such would take the time to say something in this topic already, but without them locking it afterwards either .

[Dr. Knickers]

I also support it; it sounds similar to what game devs do with their communities and I see nothing wrong with that.

[Eddy01741]

IBTL, it's inevitable, we all know it.

I will not flame, and I will simply voice my opinions after skimming through part 1 and 2 (quickly, so I didn't pick up all the points).

You have effectively made a Catch-22 in the fact that those that desire the position of responsibility can never have it. Simple as that. With that, those who want to be a leader and think that they are up to the task, can never become ones, no matter how much potential they have. Those that don't really care, well, they get asked if they want to be, and they're probably like "sure, why not?". It's a stupid rule, nobody is going to self destruct the forum just because they wanted to be a leader and got the position.

As for the "random blues" becoming staffers and gmoderators, something I noticed coming back from my long schoolwork hiatus. My simple question, why give them so much to be responsible for when normally, they are responsible for nothing? SOme of the newer staffers and gmoderators know that this was how they got their position, the old guys retired, the admins looked for nice people, they were picked. Others had to go through the grueling process of middle management that everybody has to go through in real life. Now, this may or may not be an ideal example, but look at stinger, who was stinger missile site before. He started off as either on the project team or a beta tester for SHW (I don't remember which), after contributing well and giving good suggestions, he was promoted to a moderator of the shockwave forum. Afterwards he was finally promoted to global moderator, others? Well, just looking at teh announcements page, The Dr was promoted from a blue to a global moderator just like that, same with Commander JB. I am not flaming them, but just look at the difference. Back when stinger was just a project team or BT, i don't think either of them even had joined ES, now he had to go through middle management, and they don't?

My point is, power should be given to thsoe who are experienced with it, and that means going up the ladder.

Like others have pointed out, it is us, the "random blues" that really control E Studios. If we get too fed up, we all start leaving, you have no power at all. Just pointing out that fact. To put it in political terms, all the fed up random blues could email all the others, and plan a coup de etat, they start a new forum, leaders are appointed BY THE PEOPLE, and then we all migrate.

Now, i'm not saying i'm that fed up, but this just isn't the fun loving community it was, IE, before, we had tolerance for political issues in the deep end (which I still miss), now, anything political gets thrown in the garbage bin when a gmod or staffer sees it.

So basically, I'm not completely satisfied, but I"m not completely displeased, but I am slowly progressing towards the dissatisfied side.

[Crazykenny]

This turned out rather nice, hasnt it?

[Wi-Ta]

WarMenace, on 30 Aug 2008, 22:40, said:

The staff WILL take action.

Yes they will somehow.

Quote

This turned out rather nice, hasnt it?

I really hope this will stay this way

And also i support Nem's idea for a community leader this is maybe on thing that can do some change.
This is it what this topic is all about to give the admins a idea what the user are thinking.

For me the admin did what they did well, but i get more and more the feeling that this forum going in the wrong direction.
The reason for this i see in a lack of time (RL,Mod edit, or waht ever).

One thing that really is bugging me is the post count in this forum.
Everyone does think that if member has a high post count he qualified to be some admin or moderator?
Wrong!
See there are many user here that are around for a long time and have no high post count.
Other are here for a month or so and have a post count like hell.
Can we please stop to judge user after there post count?
Can we please judge the user to his/her behaviour?

best regards
Wi-Ta

[Eddy01741]

Yep, suddenly the huge war and bashing has turned into nothing because some members just realized that the staffers/gmods weren't there that day for a reason.


That said, I don't think that the community thinks that this problem is completely solved, and it is inevitable that another war will start unless changes are made.

[Wizard]

Issues will be raised and looked at. We'll come to some conclusions and WILL let you know.

I am not trying to be stifling, but right now we need, for the sake of the community to put this to bed. Things will change. Improvements can be made. I think we all know that this can be left as it is now.

[Eddy01741]

I'm not trying to provoke another "war" full of bashing and flaming, I'm just stating my observations and my opinion of them. If there are not changes (some of which must be drastic), then something liek this will happen again. Look at the times this has happened before recently, when chris/yayo was 2 week banned, and when chris/yayo was banned period. Both times members questioned the actions of the staff/mods/admins.

[Ion Cannon!]

In the case of the chris's banning, members questioned the moderating teams actions without looking at the bigger picture. He broke the rules, he knew the rules, and so he was punished. You make exceptions.. bad things will happen.

[Eddy01741]

I wasn't saying he was wrongfully banned, but that in my opinion was the first outbreak of the conflict between the mods/staffers/admins and the members. It was like the straw that broke the camel's back for some members.

[Wizard]

Ok guys, I know no one is starting any flame wars, but we do need to let this go now. I have said we'll look into it. I am not going to lock this thread. I would like this to be the last post and let it die naturally. If nothing happens in x number of whatevers then you can freely post to necro.

[Alias]

I'm pretty sure it has been "x number of whatevers by now". We have seen quite some change in this time, but some of it in my opinion is not necessarily in the right direction. We've seen the departure of two Administrators, with one being replaced. There has been various promotions here and there, however there are still quite a few inactive/'lacking' members of the admod team. The leadership sector is still too large, yet still not spread out enough. There is a fairly active portion of the day where there is quite often not an admod present, and another fairly active portion of the day where the majority of the admods are present. This issue was raised in the first thread on this matter, yet I have not seen much change on it. A few of the admods present during the 'majority' time, are not really active during the 'minority' time, and during this 'majority' time, they don't do much by way of helping the community as most of it is done by the more dedicated troupe. This leads to questions of redundancy.

However, these previous months have led to some steps in the right direction, with quite a few admods being more aware of the rules they enforce, along with being more active in areas they weren't previously, sadly this isn't true for some of them. Some of them sadly continue along with the same ignorance/hypocrisy/arrogance/inactivity they had before, and some of them have even taken a step back into some of these. Another thing on the negative side is the (expected) failure of the Community Leader (mostly due to the position not being anything more than a name), and this Community Leader was a major contributor to some of the 'solution' to this thread, however it did not end up how it was envisioned, and hence we are back to square one: changes in leadership.

[Libains]

Well I didn't imagine I'd see this thread ever again. Ah well. As you say, there are two very specific times when this forum peaks. These are evening time GMT (2000-0000), and early morning GMT(0400-0700), as far as I can tell. It would also be fair to say that the first of these times is by far the busiest times, with the bulk of the posting members posting around this time, due to their timezone. As the evening goes on, activity drops until the early morning GMT, which is when essentially, the evening for the Americas kicks in. The bulk of the stadmins reflects these timezones, with all of the moderators bar Comr4de and JB occupying timezones in Europe, thus being available for the time periods when the forum peaks, and then JB and Comr4de, along with Stinger to a degree, keep the forums ticking over while the rest of the team sleeps. Nonetheless, the stadmins moderate when they are available to - it's too much to ask for one of the European-based moderators to moderate into the very small hours of the morning. I would, however, agree that from the perspective of somebody in a similar timezone to yourself, that the stadmin presence is limited, considering how you occupy the times that most of them are asleep or at work/educational institutions. Sadly, I don't think that there is much that can be done about this, as the majority of members here are from the European areas, and this is reflected as such in the locations of the Stadmins. I won't go so far as to express my thoughts on redundancy, but will simply leave it at that additional heads can be helpful in decision making circumstances, and not everything needs to be in plain view of the public.

As to the 'ignorance/hypocrisy/arrogance/inactivity' I will point out that the moderating team is always active, as you pointed out in your opening paragraph - hence the 'inactivity' point is redundant. I am yet to see a misuse of power from the team, but if you wanted to link to an example of said arrogance/hypocrisy I would take it into account. Currently, the stadmins fulfils their duties, and take into account the views of the Community, while still being firm on areas where they feel that the Community would benefit - the PA changes are testament to that, even if it wasn't the complete change that some people were hoping for, it was certainly a step in the right direction as judged from what we suggested. However, the stadmins have proven that they can listen - not everything was done perfectly, but no human is perfect, and the result has proven to create a better vibe between the stadmins and the rest of the community. Frankly, don't fix what isn't broken, and currently, I can't see how it is. My only thought for change would be to perhaps balance between the two timezones a bit more, but I'd only perform that change if the forums became more active overnight, while they appear not to be at the moment.

[Alias]

AJ, on 30 Jan 2009, 19:08, said:

Well I didn't imagine I'd see this thread ever again. Ah well. As you say, there are two very specific times when this forum peaks. These are evening time GMT (2000-0000), and early morning GMT(0400-0700), as far as I can tell. It would also be fair to say that the first of these times is by far the busiest times, with the bulk of the posting members posting around this time, due to their timezone. As the evening goes on, activity drops until the early morning GMT, which is when essentially, the evening for the Americas kicks in.

Therefore because of the European-centred staff there is about 7 of them active in GMT evening, and about 2 at most active in GMT morning.

AJ, on 30 Jan 2009, 19:08, said:

The bulk of the stadmins reflects these timezones, with all of the moderators bar Comr4de and JB occupying timezones in Europe, thus being available for the time periods when the forum peaks, and then JB and Comr4de, along with Stinger to a degree, keep the forums ticking over while the rest of the team sleeps. Nonetheless, the stadmins moderate when they are available to - it's too much to ask for one of the European-based moderators to moderate into the very small hours of the morning. I would, however, agree that from the perspective of somebody in a similar timezone to yourself, that the stadmin presence is limited, considering how you occupy the times that most of them are asleep or at work/educational institutions. Sadly, I don't think that there is much that can be done about this, as the majority of members here are from the European areas, and this is reflected as such in the locations of the Stadmins. I won't go so far as to express my thoughts on redundancy, but will simply leave it at that additional heads can be helpful in decision making circumstances, and not everything needs to be in plain view of the public.

You missed Overdose there, but that's about all. While the European admods moderate "when required", they just aren't required as the more dedicated ones do things and the others just sit there doing nothing, they may make a post or two, but several of them I haven't seen do any moderating action in a long while. If you actually do look in "Today's Active posts" at the bottom of the main page, you'll see that there is about a 50/50 split in the forum activity, but a 1/5 split in admods. With the redundancy, take this example:
It is currently 2200 GMT, at peak time - admods 1 through to 5 are all active. Admods 1 and 2 are the dedicated ones, who do most of the forum related maintenance, admods 3-5 haven't moderated for a long time and therefore I believe them to be redundant as moderators. On decisions: do they need moderating powers they do not use to help with decision making?

AJ, on 30 Jan 2009, 19:08, said:

As to the 'ignorance/hypocrisy/arrogance/inactivity' I will point out that the moderating team is always active, as you pointed out in your opening paragraph - hence the 'inactivity' point is redundant. I am yet to see a misuse of power from the team, but if you wanted to link to an example of said arrogance/hypocrisy I would take it into account. Currently, the stadmins fulfils their duties, and take into account the views of the Community, while still being firm on areas where they feel that the Community would benefit - the PA changes are testament to that, even if it wasn't the complete change that some people were hoping for, it was certainly a step in the right direction as judged from what we suggested. However, the stadmins have proven that they can listen - not everything was done perfectly, but no human is perfect, and the result has proven to create a better vibe between the stadmins and the rest of the community. Frankly, don't fix what isn't broken, and currently, I can't see how it is. My only thought for change would be to perhaps balance between the two timezones a bit more, but I'd only perform that change if the forums became more active overnight, while they appear not to be at the moment.

The moderating team is not always active (I said majority, not all). Certain people disappear for months, others don't use their powers for months, some others think their position gives them some forcefield against criticism. The admod team as a whole fulfils their duty, but it is half of the actual team that does this duty. The others just aren't needed. In order to 'balance', you either need to subtract or add, and due to the admods already covering all the duties required, it makes sense to demote the ones who aren't doing anything.

[Whitey]

I can only agree with the points raised. Being a forum moderator, is, after all, like being a politician. It is not a role of dominance, but of service to the community.So when the community is not served by the admod team, well, then there is clearly an issue present.

-Rorschach

[Lizzie]

Rorschach, on 30 Jan 2009, 17:09, said:

I can only agree with the points raised. Being a forum moderator, is, after all, like being a politician. It is not a role of dominance, but of service to the community.So when the community is not served by the admod team, well, then there is clearly an issue present.

-Rorschach

Assuming it's a democratic system in the first place of course.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Even if many of the admods don't use their powers, what difference does it make? They cost nothing to maintain.

Lizzie, on 31 Jan 2009, 1:31, said:

Rorschach, on 30 Jan 2009, 17:09, said:

I can only agree with the points raised. Being a forum moderator, is, after all, like being a politician. It is not a role of dominance, but of service to the community.So when the community is not served by the admod team, well, then there is clearly an issue present.

-Rorschach

Assuming it's a democratic system in the first place of course.

Which it isn't. The way I see it, the admods are given authority by the people who own the place, and that they owning this forum, it is a privilege, not a right to be here. If they want to run this place into the ground or make the background pink that's their decision.

[Alias]

Dr. Strangelove, on 31 Jan 2009, 12:26, said:

Even if many of the admods don't use their powers, what difference does it make? They cost nothing to maintain.

Why have something you never use? Why prevent the potential of others?