68 replies to this topic

[CommanderJB]

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:33, said:

CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

I think there's one simple question which this debate should boil down to: What harm does this thread do? If it does no harm, does not adversely affect any other area of the forum, then what reason have we to take it down?

What harm does it do?
It prevents multiple staff (as with the other thread this is an interchangeable term for all of the moderating team) from doing their assigned job, which is keeping the forums nice and tidy. If these staff are spending 95% of their forum time spamming (I have proof), what kind of example does that give out to members of the lower classes? It gives out a very bad example. I'd call that a very adverse effect.

Point taken and agreed with as far as it goes. I would, however, point out, that I haven't seen anyone who appears to have taken a lead from the staff in this area.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:33, said:

CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

I'd argue it's practically the cultural beating heart of the board, a simple area for people to spam without any inhbitions, and has been this way since its inception; it hardly has any more point now than before because the whole purpose of the thread is that it has no point.

Cultural beating heart? Do people join these boards because of the Last Person to Post Wins thread? No, they don't. They join primarily for the modifications, hence I'd argue that modifications are the cultural beating heart of the board. If the thread has no point, then why is it still open?! Seems a bit hypocritical there.

Admittedly that remark probably was taking it a little too far. Perhaps a better way of stating it would be to say that it generates posts, keeps people active on the forum so they can then contribute elsewhere (not of course applicable in all cases but at least some), has contributed to forum culture in the past, has been absorbed into the E-Studios cultural matrix (as your poll stated before it was taken down, whether reasoned or not, the majority of members do want to keep it and I really don't think that this is something that should be disregarded no matter the reason for doing so) and can generally be said to have made contributions to forum life. The thread also does seem to have been closing steadily back on the original track after a very long period of utterly useless activity, though I can't say as I watch it closely.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:33, said:

CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

Far from encouraging people to make intelligent posts if their ability to make unintelligent ones is denied, all you'd see is it either being reopened or the spam spreading elsewhere.

That's the point, if intelligent posts are discouraged, that means you are effectively dumbing down the population. Is that a good thing? I'd say no.

How on Earth does it discourage people from making intelligent posts? It gives them an outlet for non-intelligent ones but you can hardly say that people are required to post there; they can post as much intelligent content as they like anywhere they want, including in LPTPW if they so choose, and the thread has no bearing whatsoever on that ability. Besides which you make the comment about lower-level intelligence posts in LPTPW then you might as well make it about the rest of SYD; while none of it has quite the 'verbal diarrhoea' quality (for want of a better word) of the majority of LPTPW it's not all exactly useful or intelligent, and much of it (WAT et al) is in some cases worse as it can make people not in on the joke confused. I know I felt that way about half of the stuff on here when I first joined (and I've still never worked out Track 24...).
People don't have to leave their brain at the door when they enter, they want to. That's the point if there truly is one. Deny them this outlet and it's my conviction that sooner or later you'd see it elsewhere, where it would do harm.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:33, said:

CommanderJB, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:14, said:

LPTPW is not an area where you'll find intelligence or a purpose, so why bother looking for one? It harms nothing, it's given rise to several of the community's key cultural devices and it's effectively no different now than it's ever been, irrespective of the direction of the posts in the thread. I can understand that it has absolutely no reason to exist whatsoever, but it has no reason not to exist, and closing it would do harm without any good to replace it.

As I've mentioned in the opening posts and in other parts of this post, it does do harm. I understand your point that if people don't have the thread to do it in, where will they do it? I said in the opening post, use MSN or IRC. This is a discussion forum, not a chatroom.

Once again, point taken and agreed with as far as it goes. It's my opinion that MSN and IRC don't provide the same sort of outlet however, and probably won't replace all of it. Most of the threads in SS are chats of one inane sort or the other anyway. That's their attraction, just as much as LPTPW.

Also once again, it's not my desire to start an argument specifically with you here. I just feel that the community's overall voice is tending toward saying that they want it kept (something the poll was demonstrating rather nicely), and I for one can't see volumes of evidence it's harming elsewhere, so this is pretty much my piece. Certainly for tonight, anyway.

Edited by CommanderJB, 06 October 2008 - 11:51.

[Arkhadancia]

I recall that we are on a forum, not a military camp.
This kind of thread annoys me, this is nothing more than a hypocritical big text.


- Arkhadancia

[Chyros]

Arkhadancia, on 6 Oct 2008, 13:44, said:

I recall that we are on a forum, not a military camp.
This kind of thread annoys me, this is nothing more than a hypocritical big text.

+1
Whatever the outcome of this thread, I'd like to ask that whatever the Staffers and Admins decide collectively, this be their final verdict. This is the fifth time I've had to hear this.

Quote

If you want to keep the thread, give me reasons WHY.

Why not "if you want to close the thread, give me reasons why"? Are all threads locked if there no arguments are provided for not locking them? No, they aren't.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 10:29, said:

[/list]POINTS AGAINST:

• Too spammy - most posts are just two letters or half a sentence and rarely relate to anything significant.
  
• Continuing the point above, most of the stuff posted would be better kept in the IRC or said via MSN.
  
• Unproductive - the thread distracts a number of members of the moderating team from their set job.
  
• Drain on the forum resources - the more and more posts the server has to receive, send and store stresses the server. These resources could be better spent on productive posts.
  
• Pointless. The thread has no backing to it other than the fact you have to post last (thus unless the thread is locked it will never truly end). Most other things posted in the SYD have at least some backstory behind them and require some thinking to post in.
  
• Breaks the rules to a certain extent.
  
• Counterpoints to the "for" points - the communication and meeting can be easily done through other mediums, such as MSN, IRC, PM or even in a game played online.

myself, for the fifth time said:

I only post in there when I have nothing to do, I just occasionally switch to the screen and post, it's not like I'm going out of my way to post there. I figure it's the same for you guys.

LPTPW is a great social contact point, I think. Some people in my friends list are there because I met them in that thread. It's basically like IRC in there, except much, MUCH more active [also, you don't have to respond immediately, you can reply to a post whenever you want, making it much more convinient than MSN or the IRC]. It remains one of the most casual, friendly and non-tense areas of the entire forum, IMO. I see no need for this, tbh.

myself again said:

Personally, I think that apart from a separate channel for chit-chat and general kidding around, it [doubles as] a great outlet for the compulsive spammers among us. The good thing is that lots of nonsensical spam generally doesn't interfere with the ones talking to each other, partly because of the forum's quote option.

meeee said:

[Also,] I seriously don't see why any member of the moderating team should be criticised just because they frequent a thread that a particular member doesn't like. And the argument that team members would be more active elsewhere if they'd post less is a complete non-argument [because nobody is non-posting somewhere else just to post in LPTPW]. So striking off the benefits posting there less is supposed to give leaves exactly zero reason to do so.

I said:

[...]please don't do something that 1) I think comes forth from ranting and venting, 2) IMO would not be constructive in any way whatsoever and 3) would, as far as I see it, only serve to make the forums less active.

[Wizard]

^ And that is why I changed my mind a while ago to just leave it be.

[Crazykenny]

Close it down. To be honest, its a waste of server space.

[Chyros]

Crazykenny, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:12, said:

Close it down. To be honest, its a waste of server space.

You can just remove the first thousand or so pages of it if server space becomes an issue. Locking it doesn't help much.

[Wizard]

This topic isn't about locking it, nor should it have been about who posts in there.

This is about how many of the membership feel that the content is way below par. And to a point I agree, it is. We have rules on spam and even in SYD. Alias has tried to get everyone's attention on to the matter that the quality of the content is pointless. + + D: + lol mean nothing. There is a difference between those and what could be posted in there. That was the orignal gripe.

[Alias]

Arkhadancia, on 6 Oct 2008, 22:44, said:

I recall that we are on a forum, not a military camp.
This kind of thread annoys me, this is nothing more than a hypocritical big text.

Even if we are on a light-hearted gaming forum, there are still rules and regulations to abide by. This isn't an Anarchy.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 0:32, said:

Quote

If you want to keep the thread, give me reasons WHY.

Why not "if you want to close the thread, give me reasons why"? Are all threads locked if there no arguments are provided for not locking them? No, they aren't.

That was an explanation to why I removed the poll... if you read at the start:

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 19:29, said:

[...]so I will happily discuss and accept points from any people that disagree.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 0:32, said:

Quote

I only post in there when I have nothing to do, I just occasionally switch to the screen and post, it's not like I'm going out of my way to post there. I figure it's the same for you guys.
LPTPW is a great social contact point, I think. Some people in my friends list are there because I met them in that thread. It's basically like IRC in there, except much, MUCH more active [also, you don't have to respond immediately, you can reply to a post whenever you want, making it much more convinient than MSN or the IRC]. It remains one of the most casual, friendly and non-tense areas of the entire forum, IMO. I see no need for this, tbh.

I know that you post there when you are bored, but I feel from what I've seen from some others that they only come to this forum to post there. There wouldn't be anything wrong with that if they weren't members of the staff.
I understand that it is a communication device, and I understand it is more accessible than MSN/IRC, and I've given that in the opening post, however as I mentioned before, this forum isn't designed to be a chatroom. It is meant to be a discussion board. The top five most active posters in that thread are all within two hours of a timezone from each other, so it isn't going to be hard to find eachother on an instant messaging service or the IRC.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 0:32, said:

Quote

Personally, I think that apart from a separate channel for chit-chat and general kidding around, it [doubles as] a great outlet for the compulsive spammers among us. The good thing is that lots of nonsensical spam generally doesn't interfere with the ones talking to each other, partly because of the forum's quote option.

It is just as easy to compulsively spam via MSN (group chat exists for a reason!), and just as easy to not interfere with others (private chat).

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 0:32, said:

Quote

[Also,] I seriously don't see why any member of the moderating team should be criticised just because they frequent a thread that a particular member doesn't like. And the argument that team members would be more active elsewhere if they'd post less is a complete non-argument [because nobody is non-posting somewhere else just to post in LPTPW]. So striking off the benefits posting there less is supposed to give leaves exactly zero reason to do so.

I personally think that they should be criticised if it is the only thing they frequent. If the only thing they frequent is that thread and it gets locked, yes they will be unhappy, and yes they may not even post constructively instead - but if this is the case it is obvious that said moderator has lost interest in the forum if all they care about is one thread; hence you are left with either an inactive moderator (see "State of Administration" threads) or a moderator who is active again in other areas of the forum (positive effect!).

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 0:32, said:

I said:

[...]please don't do something that 1) I think comes forth from ranting and venting, 2) IMO would not be constructive in any way whatsoever and 3) would, as far as I see it, only serve to make the forums less active.

2. See the above section and practically every other post I've made. There will be constructive outcomes from it.
3. It will only make the forums less active to those that aren't interested in the place any more. This is one thread we are talking about, not a whole section. It isn't taboo to shut down a section, so why would it be taboo to close a thread?

Edited by Alias, 06 October 2008 - 14:22.

[Crazykenny]

Chyros, on 6 Oct 2008, 15:15, said:

Crazykenny, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:12, said:

Close it down. To be honest, its a waste of server space.

You can just remove the first thousand or so pages of it if server space becomes an issue. Locking it doesn't help much.

Its not just that. I mean, that thread serves no purpose other then using up bandwith. I cant see the fun or logic in mindless spam like that. If you wanna have senseless spam and flame wars, go do them on msn.

[Wizard]

There is a substantial amount of people on the board that have given their voices to enjoying the particular thread. Unless there is an overwhelming consensus from everyone there will be no removal of the topic. It can be corrected to within the rules, so it will be first. We haven't locked it for this reason already. This topic has served it's purpose to remind people that

Quote

Even spam has its limits and we do not allow threads that seem to have no use other than to pointlessly make new posts. 'Games' are allowed as long as there is at least some intellectual value to them. Do not create threads where the idea is simply to make posts without any use at all. Spam posts and threads that are found outside of the spam forum, or that are too spammy even for the spam forum, will be deleted, closed or moved. Repeat offence may result in a warning.

And it should apply to everywhere. LPTPW included.

[Mbob61]

I repeat what i said before and follow the words of Arkhadancia.
Place god lighten up a bit. Its just a bit of fun surely? Sure you don't like posting in it but thats your choice. Many people clearly do like to have a good spam if they are bored or maybe stressed.
If this was a serious website which served a proper purpose i might agree but this is a fun gaming forum so i say let it stay.
Jesus lighten up a bit....

Mike

And btw i see little difference is discussion board and chat room. They are 2 ways of saying almost exactly the same thing.

[Arkhadancia]

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

Arkhadancia, on 6 Oct 2008, 22:44, said:

I recall that we are on a forum, not a military camp.
This kind of thread annoys me, this is nothing more than a hypocritical big text.

Even if we are on a light-hearted gaming forum, there are still rules and regulations to abide by. This isn't an Anarchy.

There is a difference between anarchy and "open forum".
Your thread is completely hypocritical and attack some of the moderators.
For what purpose ? Create tension on the forum ? Say what you have on the heart about some people ? Remove something appreciate by some members of the forum ? So that's your vision of a forum ?

Quote

~ Alias
Your friendly neighborhood Community Leader.

If this was really the case, replies like those of Chyros have enough to make you understand that "Last Person to Post Wins" is important for some people here, and therefore should not be deleted.
If you don't understand it, the discussion is not worth continuing.


- Arkhadancia

Edited by Arkhadancia, 06 October 2008 - 15:15.

[Chyros]

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

I understand that it is a communication device, and I understand it is more accessible than MSN/IRC, and I've given that in the opening post, however as I mentioned before, this forum isn't designed to be a chatroom. t is meant to be a discussion board.

I'd hardly call any thread in the SYD part of a discussion board, yet no-one objects to that.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

The top five most active posters in that thread are all within two hours of a timezone from each other, so it isn't going to be hard to find eachother on an instant messaging service or the IRC.

You can't have conversations as easy as the ones in LPTPW over IRC, MSN or any messaging client that works on a similar basis. Forum posts have the distinct advantage of being accessible to everyone, so whoever wants to can reply. And because of the handy quote system and non-direct nature of conversations, you can quote specific posts and reply to whatever you want to, whenever you want to.

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

I personally think that they should be criticised if it is the only thing they frequent.

Then why not take it up with the people in question instead of throwing it over the whole forum?

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

This is one thread we are talking about, not a whole section. It isn't taboo to shut down a section, so why would it be taboo to close a thread?

Because it is the oldest thread still in existence, and the most active as well? Because it's part of the culture of this forum? Because it has more than 50% more posts than all of General Discussion or Game Discussion? More than Artwork, Entertainment and all Technology and Science combined? You said yourself once that the forum's heart was its mods. Then perhaps because it has three times more posts than all mods other than ShockWave combined? More than six times as many as everything in Rise of the Reds? Mind you, Wizard has already stated that closing the topic won't happen.

Edited by Chyros, 06 October 2008 - 15:12.

[Pav:3d]

Crazykenny, on 6 Oct 2008, 15:12, said:

Close it down. To be honest, its a waste of server space.

agreed
It looses its novelty v quickly, and as said, it can just be done over MSN

[Dauth]

Yes the server space is filled up by posts and not at all the space used by the mods for hosting. Come on people use two of your braincells before posting.

[Ion Cannon!]

To all those saying it close it down -
You may not see the fun in posting endless pointless spam, frankly neither do I. But some people do like it, so why should they not be allowed to do so? Does them being able to spam take away any of your enjoyment of the forum?

I'm sure we would all like to see higher quality posts, but its the SYD, you can't really expect much intelligent conversation can you?

[Brad]

You are all simply being biased to yourself, step back and look at it in a third perspective. And to all you saying close it down, give me a good reason, give me a good reason why you don't like it. Most of you are being biased in this perspective as well, as not everyone on this froum is connected Via Msn, and personally, I prefer LPTPW rather than IRC for passing time. I only go on IRC to have fun.

For my point of veiw, I say leave it be, as it is a way of passing time and making light conversation, usually. It is also useful for meeting new members, i made my first post in there . If bandwidth becomes an issue, just restart or delete the first thousand posts.

[Alias]

Dauth, on 7 Oct 2008, 2:25, said:

Yes the server space is filled up by posts and not at all the space used by the mods for hosting. Come on people use two of your braincells before posting.

The difference is the fact that mods are productive.

In relation to stressing the server, this is about connections not just storage. Every time somebody opens that thread the server has to retrieve the posts, especially since it is a "very active" thread that could be done elsewhere without stressing the server with unnecessary connections.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 2:05, said:

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

I understand that it is a communication device, and I understand it is more accessible than MSN/IRC, and I've given that in the opening post, however as I mentioned before, this forum isn't designed to be a chatroom. t is meant to be a discussion board.

I'd hardly call any thread in the SYD part of a discussion board, yet no-one objects to that.

Most of the other threads have a backing, they have a dead-set reason to exist that most people understand. This thread has no distinct direction.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 2:05, said:

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

The top five most active posters in that thread are all within two hours of a timezone from each other, so it isn't going to be hard to find eachother on an instant messaging service or the IRC.

You can't have conversations as easy as the ones in LPTPW over IRC, MSN or any messaging client that works on a similar basis. Forum posts have the distinct advantage of being accessible to everyone, so whoever wants to can reply. And because of the handy quote system and non-direct nature of conversations, you can quote specific posts and reply to whatever you want to, whenever you want to.

I'd say you can have them easier over MSN. You get a notification whenever a new message is recieved, you have a nice enclosed space between all of you. You can quote via MSN/IRC too (i.e. @Chyros:, or "random text here") allowing the bypassing of unwanted messages. Whoever wants to join the IRC, can. As I said, the thread may be overall more accessible, but does that single reason outweigh all the negative connotations?

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 2:05, said:

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

I personally think that they should be criticised if it is the only thing they frequent.

Then why not take it up with the people in question instead of throwing it over the whole forum?

It is beyond that stage. They correct their actions for a day or two, and then return to normal.

Chyros, on 7 Oct 2008, 2:05, said:

Alias, on 6 Oct 2008, 16:19, said:

This is one thread we are talking about, not a whole section. It isn't taboo to shut down a section, so why would it be taboo to close a thread?

Because it is the oldest thread still in existence, and the most active as well? Because it's part of the culture of this forum? Because it has more than 50% more posts than all of General Discussion or Game Discussion? More than Artwork, Entertainment and all Technology and Science combined? You said yourself once that the forum's heart was its mods. Then perhaps because it has three times more posts than all mods other than ShockWave combined? More than six times as many as everything in Rise of the Reds? Mind you, Wizard has already stated that closing the topic won't happen.

Getting it closed would be a last resort, only if you people cannot improve the quality of your posts (you guys did it for about a page and then you just went back to two letter spam again).

Edited by Wizard, 06 October 2008 - 15:53.

[Mbob61]

Personally, i think this thread is doing more harm than good.
Sure you may not like it but do not take it away from those who do.
your posts like this really do more harm than good in my opinion.
My advice, either make a poll so you can gauge opinions or leave it here.

Mike

[jnengland77]

Server space is not an issue, we have plenty of space. And in all honesty it does not affect server performance that much. I don't know how IPB nor do I know much about how MySQL works exactly, but I know the basic idea. I just use 10 posts per page (default) so it'll only open and find 10 posts from a thread. That is, it looks up the thread id, and skips ahead to the desired location, and reads 10 posts. So the same goes for "Last to post wins" thread. Only 10 posts (in my case) are being opened at a time. No drain on the server other then space, which we have plenty to spare, and one thread (even thousands of pages) won't hurt the server.

Otherwise once in a while I look into that thread, because it's enertaining. I don't think I've posted anything in that thread yet.

~jnengland77

[Rayburn]

As it has been mentioned before, the novelty of the thread has worn off long ago and the thing is of little use. Sure, it has been there for years and it might be considered an iconic feature of the Serial Spammers but at the end of the day, it's still pointless and since there's a new reply in there almost every minute, it's kind of hard to keep track of other topical threads in the SYD when looking at the forum index. I actually wouldn't mind to see it locked.

[Stinger]

If people weren't posting in that thread every minute like their life depends on it then I think they might be forced, in a sense, to channel their energy into something more productive instead. The thread detracts from the productivity of the board. Ergo, for every post made in LPTPW, a better one could be made elsewhere.

[Slightly Wonky Robob]

Stinger, on 6 Oct 2008, 20:53, said:

If people weren't posting in that thread every minute like their life depends on it then I think they might be forced, in a sense, to channel their energy into something more productive instead. The thread detracts from the productivity of the board. Ergo, for every post made in LPTPW, a better one could be made elsewhere.

You honestly believe that if I hadn't posted in LPTPW I would have 12k posts?

If I (and I'm sure most others) didn't post in LPTPW, they wouldn't instead post meaningful posts elsewhere. Try using some real logic.

[Stinger]

Okay, so if people wouldn't make meaningful posts elsewhere, then I don't think they have much to contribute to this board anyway, do you?

How's that for logic?

Edited by Stinger, 06 October 2008 - 20:25.

[Chyros]

Stinger, on 6 Oct 2008, 21:53, said:

If people weren't posting in that thread every minute like their life depends on it [...]

This is simply not the case. Those that post there do so every now and then, just in between things. Nobody is clinging to their monitor or even keeping the topic's tab on top to reply as fast as possible. Nobody is not doing other things to post there.

Quote

Okay, so if people wouldn't post meaningful posts elsewhere, then I don't think they have much to contribute to this board anyway, do you?

How's that for logic?

Ah, now that's something completely different. One much more worth the trouble of investigating that just blaming it on a random topic.