32 replies to this topic

[markintellect]

Just curious to see what everyone's attitude is toward conscription, a topic which at the best of times can be controversial.

My opinion is that conscription can be used s an excuse for attacks on civilians, as then there would be less soldiers to fight, and that it removes a large part of the workforce from countries, removing them from advancing economies and because of that may make it harder to rebuilt after.

[Whitey]

Depends on the nation's social policies.

-Rorschach

[Reaper94]

can u explain the question lol, i got no idea what conscription is.

and on a sidenote who is rosearch?

[Whitey]

Rorschach is me.

Also, the question is whether it is right to draft civilians into the armed forces of a nation.

-Rorschach

[Reaper94]

such as what korea (i belive) does, where all civillians must serve a certain time in the armed forces?

no i meant are you boidy?

[General]

Thats one of the toplist which will concern me when I join the army next year, despite my country does not kill neighbour countrymen randomly and only harm terrorists which they deserve it, I still would like to not harm any human being, everyone does mistake, some of them greatly and some slightly... Despite I support the fight againist terrorism I still will not like to do it myself.

[Lucid]

IMO, it's only right in time of war. however, if they do have a draft, people shouldn't be able to be excluded because of their religion/beliefs.

[Dr. Strangelove]

If it was in a lassiez-faire capitalist society like one I have described, if it was clearly stated in the contraxt of citizenship than i would have no problem with it.

However, no country on earth currently abides by those rules, so I disagree with having any drafts at all.

[The Wandering Jew]

I'm confused.

Is the question "the right to refuse to kill" or "conscription"?

[Whitey]

"Is conscription right?"

-Rorschach

[Overdose]

Conscription is a way of forcing someone to kill. Understand now?

[The Wandering Jew]

Noted. Let me try to see both sides of the coin.

Conscription (or drafting, it seems the same to me) will still be enforced by governments most especially in times of war (the fastest way to obtain troops rather than "volunteering"). The last thing a human male (or female) ever want is getting drafted in the military (most especially if it is against their will, which is the usual case). Besides, most drafted recruits are very reluctant to shoot, both sides of the belligerent nations. In the first place, they do not wish themselves to be in a battlefield. (Why don't we just shoot officers anyway? They're the ones ordering the killing.)

It is within the discretion (and religious belief) of a drafted guy whether he/she will kill an enemy. The contradiction arise since killing enemies came from an order from higher authority (i.e. commanding officer). Failure to follow any order usually lead to court-martial (or worse, if one abandoned his post to avoid killing enemies will surely head the fellow to 10 years in Leavenworth).

Almost all soldiers know that killing an enemy and getting killed is part of the ugly business called war.

"Nothing's personal, just doin' my job" as they would have said.

So, where am I leading?

Conscription is necessary during war.
Conscription is unecessary during peacetime.

P.S. But I never mentioned conscription is either good or bad. That question shall fall into morality, which is relative to a person's perspective.

[Rayburn]

It really depends on what kind of state we're talking about. In a totalitarian dictatorship, conscription might be a sign that they're up to something but if the state is built on democratic values and does not follow an aggressive foreign policy that requires great offensive military power, conscription can be handy to ensure that there is still some defensive power. Whether conscription is good or bad solely depends on what the state intends to do with it. You also have to note that in some countries, there is an alternative. Germany has mandatory military service for all men at the age of 18 but those who refuse it have to do community service instead, so no-one is being forced to serve in the forces and yet, everyone has to do SOMEthing (in theory, that is)

Edited by Rayburn, 08 October 2008 - 07:08.

[TehKiller]

Conscription = Good

If it werent for conscription i doubt ill be right here now. Whoever says taht conscription is a way to force someone to kill is obviously ignorant and never been drafted. 3 generations of men in my family have all been drafted and most of em have been in combat yet never killed anyone (my uncle didnt killed anyone yet he was fighting at Čavoglave (google it) and my grandpa was also in combat during WW2 and only wounded a Italian nothing more altough his carrier ended as beign a retired major)

Also if youre a small nation to whom some countries are hostile towards than conscription is the only thing that will save it, not "AMERICA HELL YEA" forces

[Ion Cannon!]

I will never kill somebody just because my country tells me to, its absurd. In another situation that person could have been my friend, so no. I am completely against conscription.

@TehKiller ; I'm sure there are plenty of conscripts that have killed.

And if anyone tries to glorify war this is my argument. War is never glorious, war is when men lose all self will and just do what they're government tells them to. It is not glorious to die in war, its better to just not die.

[CodeCat]

I would rather face what horrible punishment the government has for me, than lower myself to the level of following orders into harming or killing another person.

[Wizard]

CodeCat, on 8 Oct 2008, 11:21, said:

I would rather face what horrible punishment the government has for me, than lower myself to the level of following orders into harming or killing another person.

QFT

I can not and do not agree with conscription. I applaud those that volunteer for the armed forces and believe we should hold their efforts and sacrifices in much higher regard in the wider society. However there should not be a single situation where conscription should be the answer.

[Chyros]

Quote

I can not and do not agree with conscription. I applaud those that volunteer for the armed forces and believe we should hold their efforts and sacrifices in much higher regard in the wider society. However there should not be a single situation where conscription should be the answer.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

[Dauth]

Chyros, on 8 Oct 2008, 11:43, said:

Quote

I can not and do not agree with conscription. I applaud those that volunteer for the armed forces and believe we should hold their efforts and sacrifices in much higher regard in the wider society. However there should not be a single situation where conscription should be the answer.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

QFT

Hence if I do ever meet someone who has served I always say thanks to them.

[TehKiller]

Insomniac!, on 8 Oct 2008, 10:07, said:

@TehKiller ; I'm sure there are plenty of conscripts that have killed.

And if anyone tries to glorify war this is my argument. War is never glorious, war is when men lose all self will and just do what they're government tells them to. It is not glorious to die in war, its better to just not die.

Still what i was trying to point out is that you dont need to kill someone if youre a conscript.

I'm not glorifying war but when agression is made upon your country will you run away from military service or stay and fight for your home?

[Wizard]

TehKiller, on 8 Oct 2008, 13:16, said:

Still what i was trying to point out is that you dont need to kill someone if youre a conscript.

I'm not glorifying war but when agression is made upon your country will you run away from military service or stay and fight for your home?

@ 1: Sorry but the implicit purpose of the military is the use of lethal force. Ergo, you join you are expected to kill, whether you do or not is a matter of chance, circumstance or fortune.
@ 2: You point is irrelevant here. If aggression or force is threatened, then guess what, I might choose to fight. I might choose to run. But it's my choice, not my Governments and it never, ever, for any reason should be.

[TehKiller]

Conscripts arent really expected to kill...they are trained to hold their ground as long as possible. They aint even used in offensive actions for Christ's sake. Sure that they are most likely going to kill but that doesnt mean a conscript will kill someone.

Im not talking about the goverment choosing what will you do but im talking are you going to be a coward and run away or you are going to stay fight for your country and your own self?

[Wizard]

TehKiller, on 8 Oct 2008, 15:00, said:

Conscripts arent really expected to kill...they are trained to hold their ground as long as possible. They aint even used in offensive actions for Christ's sake. Sure that they are most likely going to kill but that doesnt mean a conscript will kill someone.

I am sorry but if you are in the Military it is inevitable that lethal force is used, if not then it might as well be the Samaritan Army. To be Military means that you are trained to use lethal force. Therefore you are expected to kill. Whether you end up in the position to do so, as I said is circumstancial.

TehKiller, on 8 Oct 2008, 15:00, said:

Im not talking about the goverment choosing what will you do but im talking are you going to be a coward and run away or you are going to stay fight for your country and your own self?

Conscription is the act of a Government forcing you into the army, the point that we are talking about. If you are therefore forced to join, by an act of law, you have no will.

[Dutchygamer]

Chyros, on 8 Oct 2008, 12:43, said:

Quote

I can not and do not agree with conscription. I applaud those that volunteer for the armed forces and believe we should hold their efforts and sacrifices in much higher regard in the wider society. However there should not be a single situation where conscription should be the answer.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

QFT too

[Ion Cannon!]

TehKiller, on 8 Oct 2008, 15:00, said:

Conscripts arent really expected to kill...they are trained to hold their ground as long as possible. They aint even used in offensive actions for Christ's sake. Sure that they are most likely going to kill but that doesnt mean a conscript will kill someone.

Im not talking about the goverment choosing what will you do but im talking are you going to be a coward and run away or you are going to stay fight for your country and your own self?

Conscription takes away the right of choice, thats the whole point. There is no choice involved. And really you should be more careful of your use of words such as cowardly. Does me not doing what my government wants me to do make me a coward? If anything its the opposite. The phrase war is hell is used for good reason. I have the utmost respect for those that choose to do it, especially with the wages they get paid compared to useless people like footballers and celebrities.