61 replies to this topic

[Dr. Strangelove]

Z_mann, on 9 Dec 2008, 16:05, said:

I think you should explain the 'root's of this problem, cause we are kinda drawn round in circles here...

Also, here's the thing I've been thinking about. If lies are wrong by definition, then why do we lie? Incest is wrong by definition too, but it has been abolished almost completely. Why do humans (I'm not using the word need) lie? Cause it's fun?

Discuss further. I would, but I get randomly BsoD'ed every 2 minutes...

1: We lie, because, we as humans, which have free will, can.

Scope, on 9 Dec 2008, 19:05, said:

Dr. Strangelove, on 9 Dec 2008, 2:35, said:

How is that necessary?

EDIT: If it's not obvious yet, I'm going to keep asking something along the lines of 'why' until you get to the very 'root of the problem', for lack of a better term.

I don't know about you but without any form of entertainment, i would probably go insane. Humans by nature are social beings that need social interaction to live normally.

Why do you need your sanity?

Zero, on 10 Dec 2008, 0:27, said:

Okay, let me rephrase myself, for the survival of the human race, lies are needed. Why? Simple scenario: look at most of history. If we do not lie then there will be an infinite string of wars and proxy-wars. Why? Because that what politics is about. Hell, fuck politics, think about normal life: dating, work, even survival; how well would your income be if every time your boss (who in this instant you hate) took you to his office to talk about something and you told him how you hate him, you'd be fired in an instant. Of course, I'm not saying that relationships should be based on lies, but then again, if you tell me you have never lied, ESPECIALLY in/about a relationship, you sir are a damn liar. Lying is part of our self-preservation instinct.

Oh, and, don't make fun of anime as a sub-standard of philosophy. Anime and manga can serve as as good a medium of philosophy as books, you just have to find the right ones.

@ Dr. Stranglelove: If you watch all three and listen to the WHOLE conversation you'd see where I derive that point from. The point is, Charles wants to make a world without lies by manipulating the collective human conciousness (which he calls god), and Lelouch pointed out that in a world without lies, people would annihilate themselves. Therefore, it is a world without future.

1: How would not lying get us in a war?

2: Who said politics were a good thing?

3: Why would I work for someone I hate?

4: Show me an anime with a good, philosophy.

5: 'Collective Human Consciousness'?

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 10 December 2008 - 00:01.

[Zero]

Okay, explanation time: Lies keep us out of war, because, well, how DOESN'T it keep us out of war. Reasons for war range from insults to top-secret lies. Doesn't matter what you say, if you hide something and claim you don't have it, it's a lie. Also, look at the Cold War, FOUGHT with lies.

Now, to move on to work. Not everyone has an option to work under someone they like. Also, a lot of people work for bastards they hate, they enjoy the job/money. A boss is just a man who can get you promoted/fired, and though he is almost never the reason you get the job, he can VERY easily encourage you to give it up.

Okay, moving on again, now animes with good philosophy:

Death Note
Even the most pure are corrupted by ultimate power
Evil IS objective (look at battle between L& Kira)
Good IS objective
Many others

Code Geass
Sometimes the only way to achieve success and do what is best is through horrible means (Lelouch
unites world by killing thousands- if not millions of people- and in the end it causes
improvement

Sure there are many more, but I can't remember off the top of my mind. Ask any of the anime otakus in this forum and I'm sure they'll point out a few. BTW, I guess you aren't an avid anime fan Doc. Also, the Collective Human Consciousness was an explanation of god in Code Geass.

Also- and let this be the last thing said about politics here- I never said it was a good thing. Simply put, in the world stage and everywhere else, lies are NEEDED for human SURVIVAL.

Edited by Zero, 10 December 2008 - 01:09.

[Z_mann]

Free will is not an answer to this. People do almost everything because they have free will. I wanted a more solid answer...

[Dr. Strangelove]

Z_mann, on 10 Dec 2008, 9:50, said:

Free will is not an answer to this. People do almost everything because they have free will. I wanted a more solid answer...

There isn't. Lying is irrational, and the thing that separates humans from animals is that we can choose to act irrationally or rationally.

[Zero]

Unfortunately, however, the world is not rational. Love is not rational, nor are most, if not all emotions. Humans are ILLOGICAL creatures and therefore logic is not enough of a justification.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 0:43, said:

Unfortunately, however, the world is not rational. Love is not rational, nor are most, if not all emotions. Humans are ILLOGICAL creatures and therefore logic is not enough of a justification.

I have to say that I disagree with everything you just said.

[Zero]

EXPLAIN YOURSELF!!!! I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THIS!!! Saying simple things like that to EVERY SINGLE question is just childish! That is a childish argument! Why am I wrong? Because you say so? No, I'm not, I want proof, FACTS. At least put up a good argument Doc......

Give me one instance in which love is rational. Emotions, for the most part are irrational, and humans are NOT rational. Hell, what IS rational? Ration, like common sense, is objective, and therefore a disillusion of the masses (if not, prove it).

Also, justify logic as an argument, or else don't bother as all you are doing is blocking it out, and that is ignorant, childish, and very unproffesional.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 1:49, said:

Also, justify logic as an argument, or else don't bother as all you are doing is blocking it out, and that is ignorant, childish, and very unproffesional.

I really don't know how to respond to this. If logic isn't the proper currency of debate, then what is? feeling? I feel that what you say is wrong but I can't actually prove it? Imagine applying that to math. Sure, this equation isn't true, but I feel it is. 2+2=5, or 3, or whatever the hell Big Brother wants it to be.

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 1:49, said:

Give me one instance in which love is rational. Emotions, for the most part are irrational, and humans are NOT rational. Hell, what IS rational? Ration, like common sense, is objective, and therefore a disillusion of the masses (if not, prove it).

The WHOLE point of objectivity is that it applies everywhere, to everybody, and it doesn't matter if anybody believes it or not, and objective thing is still true, that objectivity transcends the whole dross of 'I feel this' or 'In my opinion', that it is simply true, and that it has weight, because you cannot merely say it, that you have to prove it by virtue of reason and logic, and that objective things are not made up like a constructivist would have you believe, but that they are discovered, that one person can know an objective truth, and shine brighter than any million, or billion, or trillion howling voices to the contrary, that truth, and good, and justice, and knowledge, and right are greater than any evil that would try to destroy it.

If you want me to prove something with FACTS, than you must accept logic as an argument, because facts are pointless without logic, and logic cannot be used without facts.

[Zero]

Dr. Strangelove, on 11 Dec 2008, 5:02, said:

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 1:49, said:

Also, justify logic as an argument, or else don't bother as all you are doing is blocking it out, and that is ignorant, childish, and very unproffesional.

I really don't know how to respond to this. If logic isn't the proper currency of debate, then what is? feeling? I feel that what you say is wrong but I can't actually prove it? Imagine applying that to math. Sure, this equation isn't true, but I feel it is. 2+2=5, or 3, or whatever the hell Big Brother wants it to be.

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 1:49, said:

Give me one instance in which love is rational. Emotions, for the most part are irrational, and humans are NOT rational. Hell, what IS rational? Ration, like common sense, is objective, and therefore a disillusion of the masses (if not, prove it).

The WHOLE point of objectivity is that it applies everywhere, to everybody, and it doesn't matter if anybody believes it or not, and objective thing is still true, that objectivity transcends the whole dross of 'I feel this' or 'In my opinion', that it is simply true, and that it has weight, because you cannot merely say it, that you have to prove it by virtue of reason and logic, and that objective things are not made up like a constructivist would have you believe, but that they are discovered, that one person can know an objective truth, and shine brighter than any million, or billion, or trillion howling voices to the contrary, that truth, and good, and justice, and knowledge, and right are greater than any evil that would try to destroy it.

If you want me to prove something with FACTS, than you must accept logic as an argument, because facts are pointless without logic, and logic cannot be used without facts.

No, I disagree, Logic is not needed to explain facts. Facts can stand by themselves as they are proven, so use facts and examples, not just empty words!

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 23:57, said:

No, I disagree, Logic is not needed to explain facts. Facts can stand by themselves as they are proven, so use facts and examples, not just empty words!

Facts are completely useless without logic. You can't form a theory without facts and logic. If you don't value you logic, then you can completely disregard facts.

[AllStarZ]

In an argument, presenting facts without logical process is like building a house of cards with no bottom.

Edited by AllStarZ, 12 December 2008 - 01:51.

[Zero]

No, theories are formed through facts and INFERENCE. I appreciate the worth of logic, however, I will tell you it is NOT best argument for EVERYTHING. You at LEAST need a reasoning for your logic as everyone's logic is different..... at least to some degree. You need FACTS TO JUSTIFY LOGIC!! Logic by itself is as useless as a dead dog, it does nothing for anyone.

[Dr. Strangelove]

How can you discover facts without a process of logical deduction?

[Zero]

Okay, I'll admit I made no sense; I was frustrated at something else. however, just give facts to back your reasoning. Logic without facts is just opinion, and Facts without Logic is worthless, however to reply to my question, you must use BOTH, as they are incomplete without each other.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 11 Dec 2008, 1:43, said:

Unfortunately, however, the world is not rational. Love is not rational, nor are most, if not all emotions. Humans are ILLOGICAL creatures and therefore logic is not enough of a justification.

Simply put: Nothing irrational can survive in a rational world, unless they leach off of that which is rational.

Edited by Dr. Strangelove, 12 December 2008 - 03:53.

[Zero]

Then insects must be rational as they lived long before "rational" creatures, and will live long after we are gone (IF that ever happens), as will all other animals and plants (which are living things)

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 12 Dec 2008, 21:29, said:

Then insects must be rational as they lived long before "rational" creatures, and will live long after we are gone (IF that ever happens), as will all other animals and plants (which are living things)

They are.

[Zero]

And the same thing can be said about ants, and bacteria, and ALL other living things! So therefore, we are NO BETTER than animals (or every other living thing) because if an insect (most of whom don't even have a brain) are rational animals, then we are still ANIMALISTIC IN NATURE!!!!!!!

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 13 Dec 2008, 22:27, said:

And the same thing can be said about ants, and bacteria, and ALL other living things! So therefore, we are NO BETTER than animals (or every other living thing) because if an insect (most of whom don't even have a brain) are rational animals, then we are still ANIMALISTIC IN NATURE!!!!!!!

They have a very limited rationality preprogrammed by their instincts, which sometimes does not serve them(moths instinctively follow the moon at an exact 30 degree angle, which acts as a navigational aid, however, this often causes them to fly right into fires). Humans, on the other hand, have free will, which has limitless capability but does not insure survival the way an animals instincts would.

[Zero]

Again, unless you can PROVE that ONLY humans have free will through any non-religious means, I suggest you drop that statement. Also, explain plants, they survive in a rational world, only leaching off soil and sunlight and have no rational thinking as they don't even have a nervous system (to my knowing).

[Dr. Strangelove]

Zero, on 13 Dec 2008, 22:47, said:

Again, unless you can PROVE that ONLY humans have free will through any non-religious means, I suggest you drop that statement. Also, explain plants, they survive in a rational world, only leaching off soil and sunlight and have no rational thinking as they don't even have a nervous system (to my knowing).

I'm not saying that there aren't intelligent aliens with free will, humans are the only species on the planet that can choose to actively engage in self-destructive practices.

[Zero]

Dr. Strangelove, on 13 Dec 2008, 22:58, said:

I'm not saying that there aren't intelligent aliens with free will, humans are the only species on the planet that can choose to actively engage in self-destructive practices.

Ummmmm.....aliens?......I just meant on Earth, you can't prove what you're saying definitively. Also, we are the only creatures capable of engaging in those because we are also the only ones who have the tools to do so (weapons; and the only weapon we have actually capable of annihilating the entire human race, the nuclear weapon), so of course.....Also, because of those things we are more paranoid and afraid of most things (as a race).

[Dr. Strangelove]

A self-destructive practice can be as simple as getting drunk.

[Alias]

Zero, on 14 Dec 2008, 10:10, said:

Ummmmm.....aliens?......I just meant on Earth, you can't prove what you're saying definitively. Also, we are the only creatures capable of engaging in those because we are also the only ones who have the tools to do so (weapons; and the only weapon we have actually capable of annihilating the entire human race, the nuclear weapon)

Incorrect. A chimpanzee can murder another chimpanzee with a rock. A chimpanzee can commit suicide by jumping from a high tree.

[walkingGhost]

The Columbia Encyclopedia, on 6th Edition 2001-05, said:

In situations of great stress in captivity dolphins have been known to commit suicide by starvation, battering against walls, or drowning.

That should do the trick...

@Strangelove: It would be nice to define 'free' will, since you use it as a key- argument.

Personally, I think the one and only reason for lying is:
Lying makes life easier.

Thus, lying is perfectly logical, assuming that everyone wants his life to be easy (maximum success, minimum effort)

Edited by walkingGhost, 14 December 2008 - 14:36.