37 replies to this topic

[T-Man]

Heya boarders

I've always been interested in military tech, but one thing that i've never managed to get my head around is the letter/number systems countries used to idnetify their vheicles.

For example, the Americans seem to use M## for everything, but then sometimes the numbers are in a wierd order (e.g. M60 Patton followed by M1 Abrams). Then you've got the biggest confusion of all, the Russian tanks. T-72 was the base tank, but the T-64 was a more advanced design, yet had a lower number designation. At first i thought it was to do with the date the tank was designed, but the T-72 and 64, from what i have read, were developed around the same time.

I thus start this thread. Does anyone here understand any of these systems and how they work? If anyone could shed some light, i'd really apprechiate it. Of course, i suspect the biggest cause of all this confusion is simply that the designations were designed for foreign languages and don't read well in English, so i would be interested to hear from any Chinese or Russian board members who might be able to shed some light with regards to the designations for their homes in their native languages.

Thanks
T-Man

[BeefJeRKy]

M1 where the one means number 1? You can also argue F35 vs F22 where the F22 is more advanced than the F35 despite the JSF being newer.

[Jok3r]

From what I know:

The russians tend to name infantry weapons with the year they were designed (I.E. AK47 and 74)

Americans name their tanks after generals (Patton, Sherman, Abrams ETC)

Honestly, I know very little else- though I'm going to go looking now .

Also: F (F-16, F-15, ETC) is a fighter designation, while B is a bomber designation (B2 Spirit, B1 Lancer...) Except there are exceptions...

Edited by Swimmer, 07 December 2008 - 02:35.

[Sicarius]

Just want to add something here:
IIRC the NATO reporting names for all Eastern Bloc aircraft start with the same letter as their type.
Therefore: Fulcrum, Fishbed, Flanker= Fighter aircraft; Bear, Badger, Blackjack= Bombers, Etc.
NATO even used syllables to further distinguish types. 1 syllable= prop-driven planes, 2 syllables= Jet aircraft.
Although this doesn't really answer your question it's interesting all the same.

Edited by Sicarius, 07 December 2008 - 05:14.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Apart from what they said, it is all based on the whims of the defense contractors that design them.

[AllStarZ]

On American aircraft: It seems that as far as fighters are concerned, they are named in series, at least since the formation of the United States Air Force. So it starts from F-1 and goes on from there. Some aircraft never made it past prototype stage, which is why there are blanks.

Exceptions are the F-86, F-35, and the F-100 and up series, the latter being reserved for interceptors.

As for tanks... Well after World War II, they were named for the year in which they are introduced. I can suppose that the Abrams and Bradley are called M-1 and M-2 respectively because they represent a complete reformation of the current ground forces, but that's all I can think of.

But the US has been through a number of different classification systems for different military equipment. Fighter aircraft used to be designated by the prefix "P" for Pursuit. So the F-86 could be so named because it was a left-over of that system.

Edited by AllStarZ, 07 December 2008 - 07:20.

[Whitey]

CH = Cargo Helicopter
UH = Utility Helicopter
AH = Attack Helicopter
OH = Observation Helicopter

Not sure on others though.

-Rorschach

[Waris]

Sicarius, on 7 Dec 2008, 15:43, said:

Just want to add something here:
IIRC the NATO reporting names for all Eastern Bloc aircraft start with the same letter as their type.
Therefore: Fulcrum, Fishbed, Flanker= Fighter aircraft; Bear, Badger, Blackjack= Bombers, Etc.
NATO even used syllables to further distinguish types. 1 syllable= prop-driven planes, 2 syllables= Jet aircraft.
Although this doesn't really answer your question it's interesting all the same.

To add NATO's Eastern Bloc weaponry callsign:
Submersible crafts named after NATO phonetic alphabet (except for a select few): Alfa (Alpha), Hotel, Kilo, Foxtrot, Victor etc
AA missiles starts with an A: Adder, Archer, Amos, Aphex etc.
SAM starts with a G: Gecko, Goa, Ganef, Grumble, Gadlyf, Grouse etc.
Surface-to-surface missiles (including ballistic) starts with an S: Scud, Sunburn, Switchblade, Scalpel, Sickle, Styx, Stalin, Satan etc.
Air-to-surface missiles starts with a K: Kitchen, Karen, Kent, Krypton etc.

[partyzanpaulzy]

For that Soviet/Russian codes for tanks T-64 was introduced in service before T-72, but it proved to be more complicated or expensive, so T-72 has been chosen.
The number reffers to the year when a tank has been introduced in service. Before getting this code they are code as object ### - like Object 270 (nuclear war tank) or Object 640 (Black Eagle tank, the best Russian tank after T-95, available on export).
T-90S - S means some imrovement
Numbers of Soviet/Russian planes reffers to their evolution, not like US aircrafts.
S-37 = Su-47 ... first code reffers to a prototype of Sukhoi aircraft, the 2nd is code for final product in Sukhoi's catalog (above Su-35 only prototypes exist).
MiG-1.42 = one of the most advanced MiGs (MiG-35 is probably the best), code is probably some sort of inner prototype coding (MiG 1.42 - > MiG-42)
MiG-35 = heavilly modernized MiG-29 (this is marketing turn - see Mi-30)
T-72M4 CZ - czech modernization of T-72 (MP is Ukrainian, originally had to be Czech as M3,... )
Tu-2000 - number reffers to be something "the best", cancelled scramjet bomber, like Aurora which has never existed (depends on you if you want believe these military words - like the use (now official version) of the LASER in Ussuri Conflict in 1960's (well some witnesses say there were thick cables)), well army tech. is more far than civilian (10 or more years)

LT-38 - light tank mark 38 (Czechoslovakia)* - the most advanced light tank in year 1938 when it has been introduced to service, like other millitary stuff it became vital help for Nazi forces and has been breaking French or EastEuropean lines (don't forget how betrayel can turn against you)

Similar coding applies for NATO codes and American, but American is much more complicated.
American coding seems sometimes pretty mysterious to me (F114 is older than F35, but F14 is older than F15 and same applies to F16,F18,F22,F35).

*in Czech it's lehký tank vzor 38, but the initials are practically same

[Lucid]

here is the breakdown of American designations.

the letter (eg. F,A,C, ect.) refers to the aircraft's role (F-Fighter, A-Attacker, B-Bomber, H-Helicopter, E-Electronic, U-Utility, Q-Drone, C-Cargo, X-Experimental.) The number refers to the design number, and next letter refers to the specific model.

for example, F-15E
Fighter-15th design-Model E

[BeefJeRKy]

I believe the the M in M16 or M4 stands for Munitions.

[AllStarZ]

Nope. M stands for Model.

[BeefJeRKy]

Well at least now I can correct my friend.

[Foxhound]

Also remember that the USAF decided not long after the Century Series of fighters (F-102, F-104, etc.) that they would reset the designation line to match with the Navy to make the Unified System in 1962. The higher F-100s, e.g. F-110 and beyond, are reserved for aircraft captured from foreign powers for evaluation (and black project aircraft; supposedly, the Boeing Bird of Prey had an F-1xx designation). This is why we're back with the F/A-18, F-22, and F-35 now. The F-117A was kept in the old designation system to keep Russian intelligence off the trail of the stealth fighter project (and the F to attract fighter pilots, who were needed to fly the attacker), which started before the fall of the Berlin Wall. After all, you don't want your enemy knowing about your top-of-the-line toy, now, do you?

[Warbz]

In Air Cadets I learnt that the letters were abbreviations.
AKA: Harrier-GR7, the GR stands for Ground Reconnaissance.

The rest I forgot.

[Sgt. Rho]

Also, Germans tend to name their tanks after Animals, mostly large cats (Leopard, Tiger, Panther, etc)

[Jazzie Spurs]

Scope, on 9 Dec 2008, 4:49, said:

I believe the the M in M16 or M4 stands for Munitions.

It stands for military IIRC, The M16, M4A1 uses a different mechanism than the Civilian version. But I am not sure about that.

[Lucid]

Nope, "M" stands for model

[CommanderJB]

Russian designations are trickier because they have a few different cases where they have two words for the same letter. Here's some ones you might come across:

UB: When seen on an aircraft, this stands for 'combat trainer' and is a 2-seat variant. For example: MiG-29UB

M: This almost always means 'modernised' and is seen on anything from missiles to tanks to aircraft to helicopters. Sometimes seen in combination with other letters such as 'BM' (literally 'big modernisation'). For example: BMP-3M, A-50M
In one case it is used for 'Malaysia' (in Su-30MKM).

M# (where # is an integer): Delineates different modernised versions of a design. For example: ZSU-23-4M4, Buk-M2.

E: This is the most commonly-used letter for export variants. For example: Iskander-E, MiG-31E, Tor-M2E

K: This has several different uses. It can delineate:
Command versions of a vehicle (for example BMP-3K, BMP-2K T-80UK)
The carrier version of a fighter (for example MiG-29K)
The country China in an export variant built specifically for that country (Su-30MKK)
On a Sukhoi aircraft: 'Commercial' version (i.e. one not intended for use by Russia's armed forces. Effectively a different way of saying export variant.)

S: Typically stands for 'series', in reference to a continuous line of production or upgrades. Usually seem as SM (as in Su-27SM) in which case it is a series modification, which are smaller and less comprehensive than full upgrade packages given just an M designator, so it can be read as 'small' as well. You can also combine it with an integer to get things like Su-27SM2, which is the second in a series of small modifications. Not sure what it stands for in T-90S, India's export version of the T-90MBT, though.

IB: Only appears once in Su-27IB (which became the Su-34), and it means Fighter-Bomber (Istreyibel Bombardirovschick).

T:
Vehicles: a tank (for example T-72, T-90)
Aircraft: A Sukhoi internal prototype (for example T-50, the current internal designation of their PAK FA design)

F: A naval version of a vehicle (for example BMP-3F)

O: There is some element of flame weaponry in the vehicle or weapon's design (for example RPO-A, BMO-T, TOS-1). One exception that comes to mind is the MiG-29OVT: The OVT stands for thrust-vectoring in this instance.

B: On vehicles, especially tanks, this indicates a version which has been significantly upgraded and is considered a separate member of the design 'family' (for example T-80B, T-72B)

V: On tanks, this indicates a version designed to be fitted with explosive reactive armour.

Edited by CommanderJB, 10 March 2009 - 23:18.

[AZZKIKR]

well, Any russian unit ending with UK is the command version.

[CommanderJB]

Actually you're right - K is also command (not UK as that's only the case in the T-80UK. 'U' apparently standing for yet another variant of 'improved'. BMP-3K is the command version without a 'U' you see).

[AZZKIKR]

forgot about that. apparently, if it's like a T-72M, it's an export model, but T-72M1 is modernised vers. of T-72M.

[CommanderJB]

Ack, leave it to them to buck the trend with some counter-intuitive exception somewhere. That's the only M designator for an export variant I've ever seen though.

[partyzanpaulzy]

T-72M4CZ
Heavilly modernized T-72 (only panzer and few other parts are original, motor and so is new, added new firing system, added reactive armor) used in the CZech Army, but I don't know if they even asked Russians when they were upgrading this).
PT-91 Twordy, P is probably Poland T is probably tank and 91 means probably 1991, Twordy means hard. It's Polish modernized T-72.
M-84 I can just guess 84 could be from year. It's Croatian tank derivated from T-72.
TR-125 Romanian modernized T-72 with 7 travelling wheels. Probably something like Tank Romanian.
But in these 3 designations were probably used designations in national languages, even though words like tank or modernization are international, so they haven't changed much from the original word.
EDIT:
BMPT - Boyevaya Mashina Podderzhki Tankov, Tank Support Fighting Vehicle (heavy personnal carrier on T-72 chassis)
Following list has been translated from www.vojsko.net:
T-72 - basic version
T-72K/T72AK/T-72BK - command version of tank T-72
T-72A - version with laser rangefinder
T-72AV - version with reactive armor
T-72M - export version
T-72M1 - modernized version T-72M with extra panzer
T-72B - version with thicker panzer of the turret
T-72B1 - version without possibility shooting anti-tank homing shell from the cannon
T-72S/S1 - export version of T-72B/B1
T-72BM - version with reactive armor of 2nd generation
T-72M4 CZ - Czech modernized version with new motor of 1000 h.p., new system of firing, reactive panzer and other additions
PT-91 - Polish modernized version of T-72
TR-125 - Romanian version of T-72 with 7 travelling wheels
M-84 - Yugoslavian version of T-72
M-84A - version with new motor of 1000 h.p. and new panzer
M-95 Degman - Croatian version of M-84 with improved panzer
MTU-72/ - bridge tank
BREM-1/2 - salvage tank (on getting other vehicles back on the road)
IMR-2 - engineer tank on T-72 chassis

Edited by partyzanpaulzy, 17 December 2008 - 21:13.

[Zaho]

There are plenty of weapons based on the T-72 chassis. I have mentioned here in this forum several months ago about a tank named T-72MD2. It has 2 prototypes build and banned from military utilization, since they are proving very hazardous if destroyed. These tanks have been put nuclear engines, which greatly increase their range and speed. In fact such power proves maybe hazardous to the tank itself, nuclear reactors power big things such as cities and capital ships. The range of these tanks could not be estimated properly, but I have heard something like 15000 km top. I don't know how much of this is true, since I could not find it on the internet and I heard it from my uncle who is a senior officer in the Bulgarian Army. I think that there are plenty of cool things that are rendered classified

Who knows what kind of mammoth class tanks have been created and never revealed to the public