30 replies to this topic

[RaiDK]

Just mechs.

No pilots that can predict the future
No secondary characters with mystical powers
No singers that sing songs with super powers
No pilots with special future predicting or bezerker mode powers
No mystical powers the main characters utilize

Is it just me or does like EVERY mecha series EVER have to use some sort of weird mystical power thingo?

[Alias]

Well it is anime... you cannot expect it to be sensible, sadly.

[Lord PieMonster]

hmm....
Makes me think MechWarrior needs a TV show. If done well, that could be pretty cool.

[Sgt. Rho]

Lord PieMonster, on 26 Dec 2008, 9:17, said:

hmm....
Makes me think MechWarrior Armored Core needs a TV show. If done well, that could be pretty cool.

[Overdose]

Thankfully Macross doesn't isn't any mystical with exception of Macross Zero.

[Zeke]

Gundam 00?

[RaiDK]

Overdose, on 27 Dec 2008, 0:46, said:

Thankfully Macross doesn't isn't any mystical with exception of Macross Zero.

Um, they sing songs to attack people...

[Overdose]

-------->[MACROSS SPOILERS]<-----------







The songs worked well against the Zentradi and Meltrandi, better than any weapon. This is because they had existed for entire millenniums without culture. Human or in this case Micronian life, was deemed dangerous to them because the culture shock was so immense it was affecting their performance in war. In fact some didn't even want to fight anymore. Imagine being part of an alien race almost older than time itself that only knew how to make weapons and fight and reproduces through cloning alone. One day all of a sudden, you discover about this awesome thing named music and that you can fall in love with someone. That there's so many things you can do with your life other than to wage war and kill.

This was the ultimate end to Space War I. About half of them became our friends and live and fight along side us in the Macross universe but even those that refused and live the space pirate life still benefit from culture. I'm sure they enjoy sex very much, enough to have single gender fleets because remaining contact the old way was deemed 'unproductive'.

Next up would be the Protodeviln. That's a lot of spoilers and I know you haven't seen all of Macross 7.

Now the Vajra. The 'bad guys' I hate the most. The Vajra communicate through songs within their ' sentient network' (in layman's terms, a hive mind). Normal singing couldn't affect them, because their senses don't work like ours. In in the end it took someone (rather two people) infected with the Vajra disease to actually communicate with them. The Vajra attacked humans because they couldn't understand us. They knew already Ranka but when they listened to Sheryl song they understood that we were different from one another and thus completely different from them. Now the Vajra is another alien race that mankind 'dominated'.

All of this is because music is a the center piece of Macross. Macross might have mecha, huge battles in space and may have more explosions than all anime combined but the main focus is still music. Macross is about music and love triangles and not about wars or cool robots. Understand?

[Nid]

I don't think any Gundam series have any mystics or super powered characters in. They all have the odd Cheesy, Corny or Lame line here and there though though.

[Destiny]

Nidmeister, on 27 Dec 2008, 5:02, said:

I don't think any Gundam series have any mystics or super powered characters in. They all have the odd Cheesy, Corny or Lame line here and there though though.

IIRC the Gundam SEED series has characters have this..."SEED" mode or crap that makes them kill-all-without-getting-shot-down-like-a-berserk-idiot-mode. If I recall it's some acorn or a seed that explodes or something like that.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Lord PieMonster, on 26 Dec 2008, 3:17, said:

hmm....
Makes me think MechWarrior needs a TV show. If done well, that could be pretty cool.

Mech Warrior did have a TV show in the late 80's, called Battletech. The style of the cartoon was similar to Transformers and the storyline followed the Mech Warrior/Battletech lore. For some of the scenes, 3d animation was used, but by today's standards, it was primitive at best.

[Foxhound]

Nidmeister, on 26 Dec 2008, 16:02, said:

I don't think any Gundam series have any mystics or super powered characters in. They all have the odd Cheesy, Corny or Lame line here and there though though.

You could consider the Newtypes from the rarely-seen-stateside Gundam series like Gundam X and the like to be mystics of sorts, even if they were simply cybernetically enhanced or evolved humans.

[RaiDK]

Yeah, Gundam has Newtypes / Bezerkers / Mystics.

I think it's funny how they can't just make a series with robots in it. Even Fullmetal Panic had some weird superhuman issue (Can't remember the name, been a while since I've watched it)

[AllStarZ]

Because mechs that are ten storeys high and move with a speed and grace of a ballerina and with enough firepower to obliterate entire cities aren't. Honestly, can't the Japanese make mechs in more modest proportions, like the Tachikomas from Ghost in the Shell?

[Zero]

RaiDK, on 26 Dec 2008, 7:45, said:

Just mechs.

No pilots that can predict the future
No secondary characters with mystical powers
No singers that sing songs with super powers
No pilots with special future predicting or bezerker mode powers
No mystical powers the main characters utilize

Is it just me or does like EVERY mecha series EVER have to use some sort of weird mystical power thingo?

Gundam. Sure, they have SEED mode and whatnot, but actually, it's not a mystic power. Newtypes, coordinators, and SEED mode are all the result of either genetic engineering/evolution (according to the shows) so the background is actually scientific. Actually, a LOT of the stuff from Gundam (especially the first season) are based in science, and actual science too. So, there are really no mystic powers that I can think of.

Also, everyone keeps complaining how all these Mecha are impossible. They ARE possible, however, most of these animes take place hundreds if not thousands of years in the future, and by then we will definitely have composites and whatnot strong and light enough to do all this and more.

[Cuppa]

Zero, on 2 Jan 2009, 12:45, said:

Also, everyone keeps complaining how all these Mecha are impossible. They ARE possible, however, most of these animes take place hundreds if not thousands of years in the future, and by then we will definitely have composites and whatnot strong and light enough to do all this and more.

Or just some really good Phlebotinum

EDIT: Oh look! Code Geass and Gundum are listed under the Green Rocks article!

Edited by Cuppa, 04 January 2009 - 00:23.

[Zero]

Okay, I'll explain that AND the Super-Prototypes/Ace Customs:

Sakuradite and the M-Particles existed because they needed to, however, these particles are by no means magical. M-Particles happen naturally and exist much like elements/atoms. Sakuradite is a finite Fossil Fuel, much more powerful than oil, and it is what seemed to change the world most in Code Geass. So, don't make fun of them, one day we may discover things such as them, they are scientifically possible (as far as I know) and that is become research went into them when inventing them. Now, magical crystals that can shoot out lightning, and so on, no....just no....

First Ace Customs: There are times when Aces modified their own weapons, something seen in Guerilla Wars, and sometimes in planers. Ace Customs are made to allow a pilot to function to FULL potential, maximize damage to the enemy (better to put a weapon that cost 5x as much as a normal one in the hands of an ace who's least likely to get it destroyed than a rookie), and also make sure the Ace survives to fight another day.

Super-Protos: This is sometimes seen in aircraft. Simply because, prototypes, ESPECIALLY when dealing with something as massive, huge, and expensive as a mecha (which is probably several TRILLION dollars of research and development). They have MUCH more money put into them: Armor, Weaponry, Speed, all put up popostrously to testbed MANY things because doing them one at a time would be WAY too expensive. Of course in SEED it is much cooler in my opinion as the Strike (the Proto-of-Protos) has several extension parts that it can equip to fight with. Also, in a few cases, the stress is so HUGE that just piloting it can cause death (Wing Zero; Talgeese (1?/2?); few others)

All in all, the customs and protos are viable, especially since the protos are usually FORCED into battle, then examined, data is taken, and they are further used by Aces because they are so unique and powerful. We don't do this with aircraft for obvious reasons, but, again, mechs cost a SHITLOAD more and a prototype mech will almost always testbed and emphasize on many things which are then made into cheaper version. Sometimes they beat it in one aspect, but lose in almost other. Finally, another thing is that these protos also usually tend to specialize on ONE aspect. Examples:
-Strike: Multi-Purpose testbed, superior to no other proto in any aspect but pilot
-Aegis: Mobile-Armor& Mobile Suit in one, agility and CQC
-Blitz: Stealth, Guerilla, and Sabotage
-Buster: Advanced Heavy/Long-Range Weaponry, Armor
-Freedom: Multi-Targeting Systems, VERY Advanced Heavy/Long-Range Weaponry and Systems, Artillery, N-JC
-Strike: VERY advanced CQC and mobility, N-JC
-Duel: Obvious, close quarters combat and basic weaponry
-RX-78: Offensive testbed
-Zero Wing: prototype emphasizing on power and mobility, offensive, too dangerous to be piloted by most without killing them

Edited by Zero, 16 January 2009 - 01:12.

[Cuppa]

Zero, on 3 Jan 2009, 21:30, said:

Okay, I'll explain that AND the Super-Prototypes/Ace Customs:

Sakuradite and the M-Particles existed because they needed to, however, these particles are by no means magical. M-Particles happen naturally and exist much like elements/atoms. Sakuradite is a finite Fossil Fuel, much more powerful than oil, and it is what seemed to change the world most in Code Geass. So, don't make fun of them, one day we may discover things such as them, they are scientifically possible (as far as I know) and that is become research went into them when inventing them. Now, magical crystals that can shoot out lightning, and so on, no....just no....

Exactly. They exist for the sake of powering the mechs and thus, moving the plot foward and thusly, making them phlebotinum/green rocks. You seems like you really know your ropes err... tropes! (omg i am so punny)

EDIT: On topic: Going to have to agree with this guy:

AllStarZ, on 27 Dec 2008, 8:00, said:

Because mechs that are ten storeys high and move with a speed and grace of a ballerina and with enough firepower to obliterate entire cities aren't.

Edited by Cuppa, 04 January 2009 - 04:57.

[Zero]

Cuppa, on 4 Jan 2009, 5:52, said:

Zero, on 3 Jan 2009, 21:30, said:

Okay, I'll explain that AND the Super-Prototypes/Ace Customs:

Sakuradite and the M-Particles existed because they needed to, however, these particles are by no means magical. M-Particles happen naturally and exist much like elements/atoms. Sakuradite is a finite Fossil Fuel, much more powerful than oil, and it is what seemed to change the world most in Code Geass. So, don't make fun of them, one day we may discover things such as them, they are scientifically possible (as far as I know) and that is become research went into them when inventing them. Now, magical crystals that can shoot out lightning, and so on, no....just no....

Exactly. They exist for the sake of powering the mechs and thus, moving the plot foward and thusly, making them phlebotinum/green rocks. You seems like you really know your ropes err... tropes! (omg i am so punny)

EDIT: On topic: Going to have to agree with this guy:

AllStarZ, on 27 Dec 2008, 8:00, said:

Because mechs that are ten storeys high and move with a speed and grace of a ballerina and with enough firepower to obliterate entire cities aren't.

However, just because they are so, it doesn't make it unrealistic, so as far as the mechs themselves are involved (as well as things such as SEED mode and Newtypes), they ARE actually posssible.

About the mech movement things. Again, don't forget that many of these worlds are worlds were decades of research (centuries in most gundam worlds it seems, as well as they are VASTLY more advanced than we are in most Gundam Universes as they can create space-colonies with artificial gravity-can't remember the name right now, but in SEED they had the ones that Braum proposed) SOLELY on these mechs.

[Cuppa]

Zero, on 15 Jan 2009, 20:11, said:

However, just because they are so, it doesn't make it unrealistic, so as far as the mechs themselves are involved (as well as things such as SEED mode and Newtypes), they ARE actually posssible.

About the mech movement things. Again, don't forget that many of these worlds are worlds were decades of research (centuries in most gundam worlds it seems, as well as they are VASTLY more advanced than we are in most Gundam Universes as they can create space-colonies with artificial gravity-can't remember the name right now, but in SEED they had the ones that Braum proposed) SOLELY on these mechs.

Well sure, the Applied phlebotinum in Code Geass and Gundum do have some basis from reality. Sakuradite is some kind of metal or semiconductor and the Minovosky particle is related to Helium-3 and Deuterium fusion. But that's it. Everything else is just fantasy like the high speed flying and the crazy maneuverability.

You can create artificial gravity by placing a space station at a Lagrange point or making object rotate, and who is this Braum guy?

[Mathias]

The most realistic mech anime I've seen was Gasaraki. Unfortunately it segued into nonsense towards the end.

[Nid]

Cuppa, on 16 Jan 2009, 3:14, said:

Well sure, the Applied phlebotinum in Code Geass and Gundum do have some basis from reality. Sakuradite is some kind of metal or semiconductor and the Minovosky particle is related to Helium-3 and Deuterium fusion. But that's it. Everything else is just fantasy like the high speed flying and the crazy maneuverability.

You can create artificial gravity by placing a space station at a Lagrange point or making object rotate, and who is this Braum guy?

Ok, lets make an anime where all the mechs are made out of everyday materials, are slow, vulnerable, and tanks can just out perform them in both speed, agility and armour, making the whole military switch over to mechs a plain stupid idea.



There has to be some form of surrealism here otherwise the mechs wouldn't be there in the first place, at the moment you appear to be dismissing anything that isn't possible.

[Zero]

Cuppa, on 16 Jan 2009, 3:14, said:

Everything else is just fantasy like the high speed flying and the crazy maneuverability.

You can create artificial gravity by placing a space station at a Lagrange point or making object rotate, and who is this Braum guy?

Ok, first of all Braum is the father of modern rocketry (made the V1+V2 rockets, and later the Saturn family of rockets for US Space Race in Cold War)

Second, Don't forget they are HUNDREDS if not thousands of years more advanced. For example, gundanium and phase-shift armor (which I believe could be achieved in the form of an Electro-Magnetic Shield to shield from metal weapons, which it does), they are both made of supertough materials. By the time we are able to build space stations like that in the same everyday manner as they seem to do in Gundam and can establish HUNDREDS of them in space, then we will have thrusters capable of powering a several thousand ton machine, super-strong (and super-light) alloys, and we will be able to grant them more than ballerina-like maneuverability and grace.

[Crazykenny]

Such serie exists. Google for Gasaraki

[AllStarZ]

If mechs or power suits ever see military use, they may eventually make tanks obsolete. The role of the tank on the battlefield is to provide mobile armoured firepower, and a future mechanized warrior somewhat larger than a man may be able to provide that without so much speed but with just as much protection and firepower, and all in a size that is convenient in urban environments.

The thing is though, making huge Gundams is impossible. They cannot move with that much speed, that much manoeuvrability, and they cannot be made that big. They completely ignore existing physical laws. I only "dabble" in physics, but at the very least they break all three of Newton's fundamental laws of motion, and at least the first law of thermodynamics. They can accelerate from a standing position to non-visible speed in less than a second, and then decelerate at the same rate. Similarly, due to this insane acceleration/deceleration, an enormous amount of energy must be transferred from one state to another. Even in a non-gravity environment you cannot ignore these laws.

They wouldn't even be militarily practical: Something like Wing Zero would take an incredible amount of resources to construct, be logistically demanding, and would spend more time in a shop than out in the field. The larger and more technically complex something is, the more likely it is to break down. And then you'd only have at best a few at a time, which hardly makes them strategically useful even if they are incredibly powerful. So they can crush conventional weapons with ease. But the amount of resources you dedicate to their upkeep would come at the cost of your other forces.

A weapon is only as strong as its weakest component. The Panther tank for example. Thick, well-sloped armour and a powerful anti-tank gun, but a technically flawed and underpowered engine meant that sometimes even simply getting hit anywhere by a tank projectile without it penetrating could shut off the engine.

Like most science-fiction, socio-economic and military realities are completely ignored, or not at all understood.