407 replies to this topic

[Libains]

Golan, on 24 Apr 2009, 17:46, said:

CodeCat, on 23 Apr 2009, 21:57, said:

Define win.

An outcome that you like.

WNxMastrefubu, on 23 Apr 2009, 22:49, said:

KamuiK, on 23 Apr 2009, 11:57, said:

Alias, on 23 Apr 2009, 17:49, said:

KamuiK, on 24 Apr 2009, 1:48, said:

-is allmighty and allloving, why does He not do anything against the evil?

It's called free choice.

Then He is not allmighty, if he cannot alter the mind.

if your sons keep hitting and cutting eachother you would not let them continue and use "free will as an exuse". you would stop them. assuming ofcourse you love your child. eh?

a) What makes you think that God would apply your own moral standards?
b) Why the hell should she see humanity as her children?

I believe that it is mentioned in the Bible multiple times that we are God's children, as we were created by him in his own image. However, God does have no need to apply our morales in how he deals with us. Much in the same way that a Photographer will not interfere with Nature that he is photographing, God will not interfere with his creation here on Earth. I like to think that God has a hand in a few things - if not to necessarily cure an affliction the second it appears, but to alter something in a tiny way (Butterflies and wings anyone) so as to help humanity in the future.

[BeefJeRKy]

Chyros, on 24 Apr 2009, 2:17, said:

ultimentra, on 24 Apr 2009, 1:39, said:

God doesn't do anything against evil because without evil there is no good. Without ying there is no yang.

Uhhh, how was it in the garden of Eden then, before Eve took that fruit thingy? The bible itself denies the exact thing you're saying.

Before the fruit there was always good and evil. When Eve and Adam succumbed to the temptation, they were then able to distinguish between the two and so became like God and the angels.

[ultimentra]

If there was only good, then how would be know what evil is if there is nothing to compare good with? It is quite so that definition are directly related to what they can be compared to.
Good, the opposite of evil
Evil, the opposite of good
(these aren't really definitions but it gets my point around)
Take evil out of the equation
Good, the opposite of....what?
I think this explains my point.

[SorataZ]

Golan, on 24 Apr 2009, 18:46, said:

a) What makes you think that God would apply your own moral standards?
b) Why the hell should she see humanity as her children?

Do you actually believe God is a woman? Not that I complain about this possibility...

[CommanderJB]

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 9:08, said:

If there was only good, then how would be know what evil is if there is nothing to compare good with? It is quite so that definition are directly related to what they can be compared to.
Good, the opposite of evil
Evil, the opposite of good
(these aren't really definitions but it gets my point around)
Take evil out of the equation
Good, the opposite of....what?
I think this explains my point.

Does it matter? Are you saying that God should deliberately inflict evil on his creations just so they know what it's like when good is not around when he could give them eternal peace and love instead?

Edited by CommanderJB, 25 April 2009 - 02:35.

[ultimentra]

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

[CodeCat]

By that reasoning, school bullies are helping you.

[Dauth]

CodeCat, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:30, said:

By that reasoning, school bullies are helping you.

I would say they helped toughen me up a lot. I used to be bothered by the things said to me. After them I relish the abuse I get on here.

[CommanderJB]

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

[Libains]

Dauth, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:32, said:

CodeCat, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:30, said:

By that reasoning, school bullies are helping you.

I would say they helped toughen me up a lot. I used to be bothered by the things said to me. After them I relish the abuse I get on here.

Not everybody reacts in the same way though - more people are likely to react negatively to something like that than positively. I'd rather have a stable childhood over one that has been distorted by others - I can't ever see it as a good thing personally.

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

JB has it spot on here - why would a God choose to make people suffer after having sent his own son to die to prevent them from being punished for their mistakes? Something very wrong there. Plus, look at third world countries - while us privileged souls are living mostly good lives, with the occasional bad thing happening, what do you say to those that live their lives in misery and pain - all it does is make them suffer - not make them appreciate good things as they are so damn rare it makes no difference.

[Chyros]

AJ, on 25 Apr 2009, 17:10, said:

Dauth, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:32, said:

CodeCat, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:30, said:

By that reasoning, school bullies are helping you.

I would say they helped toughen me up a lot. I used to be bothered by the things said to me. After them I relish the abuse I get on here.

Not everybody reacts in the same way though - more people are likely to react negatively to something like that than positively. I'd rather have a stable childhood over one that has been distorted by others - I can't ever see it as a good thing personally.

Exactly, plenty of people are mentally scarred because of things like that. I really wouldn't like to believe in any deity that would send me bad times for any reason whatsoever.

AJ, on 25 Apr 2009, 17:10, said:

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

JB has it spot on here - why would a God choose to make people suffer after having sent his own son to die to prevent them from being punished for their mistakes? Something very wrong there.

In before "God works in mysterious ways."

[BeefJeRKy]

AJ, on 25 Apr 2009, 11:10, said:

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

JB has it spot on here - why would a God choose to make people suffer after having sent his own son to die to prevent them from being punished for their mistakes? Something very wrong there. Plus, look at third world countries - while us privileged souls are living mostly good lives, with the occasional bad thing happening, what do you say to those that live their lives in misery and pain - all it does is make them suffer - not make them appreciate good things as they are so damn rare it makes no difference.

Well as far as I know, it's not that God sends evil to us. God allows us to fall to temptation to test us and then tries to rescue because that is the path humanity chose after the fall in the Garden of Eden. Between the two testaments of the Bible, God goes from an almighty being who punishes the human race while leaving them a sliver of hope to an all-loving father figure who wishes to save us all. It is fairly confusing though. I think it's just that evil exists and God gives us the choice between it and good, and hopes that we choose the good.

[TehKiller]

Chyros, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:12, said:

AJ, on 25 Apr 2009, 17:10, said:

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

JB has it spot on here - why would a God choose to make people suffer after having sent his own son to die to prevent them from being punished for their mistakes? Something very wrong there.

In before "God works in mysterious ways."

IIRC the Bible says he sacrificed his son so that our sins should be forgiven (including the people who were dead before the arrival of the 2nd messiah) but still didnt wanted to remove the freedom of choice (as previously said would you like to impose your way on someones life or let him follow your way on his own will?)

[nip]

Scope, on 25 Apr 2009, 18:57, said:

...

Well as far as I know, it's not that God sends evil to us. God allows us to fall to temptation to test us and then tries to rescue because that is the path humanity chose after the fall in the Garden of Eden. Between the two testaments of the Bible, God goes from an almighty being who punishes the human race while leaving them a sliver of hope to an all-loving father figure who wishes to save us all. It is fairly confusing though. I think it's just that evil exists and God gives us the choice between it and good, and hopes that we choose the good.

---------------------------o00o---°(_)°--o00o---------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't it 'God' who was responsible for the great deluge that killed all life on earth except the creatures on the ark just because 'God' was a bit fed up with us humans? What an adorable saviour... is this (his) moral really worth copying? No, because 'God' is evil.

[BeefJeRKy]

Indeed that is why I am confused at the sudden shift in his attitude in the New Testament. I wouldn't say God is evil. It is simply we humans that have exploited this thought to our own undoing. God served his purpose in the olden times. Now we must prevent the idea of God from holding us back.

[TehKiller]

"Hold us back"

"God" is the only thing keeping us as human beings not that organ called brain. If it were only atheists on earth trust me you would even live another second to see it

[BeefJeRKy]

Well by the idea of God, I meant the old fashioned thoughts that the Vatican and other organizations try to spoon feed humanity.

[Golan]

KamuiK, on 25 Apr 2009, 0:31, said:

Golan, on 24 Apr 2009, 18:46, said:

a) What makes you think that God would apply your own moral standards?
b) Why the hell should she see humanity as her children?

Do you actually believe God is a woman? Not that I complain about this possibility...

Having a feature as restraining as a fixed gender (or more precisely, the possibility of there being a "female" and "male" god) attributed to God does not coincide with any possible concept God that I find viable. No matter what, God doesn't get laid, so applying a sex to him is futile - it's like asking whether your neighbor's dog is running on a V8 engine. Describing her as female (instead of neutral) is more of a tribute to a friend of mine.

CodeCat, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:30, said:

By that reasoning, school bullies are helping you.

They certainly helped me become the person I am today. Then again, some might argue that's not actually a good thing...

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

Our live is just a transition anyways, so the pain we have to endure is well worth the lessons we learn for the next step of our journey.

Edited by Golan, 25 April 2009 - 20:05.

[SorataZ]

Golan, on 25 Apr 2009, 22:04, said:

Our live is just a transition anyways, so the pain we have to endure is well worth the lessons we learn for the next step of our journey.

Says a book several hundrets of years old and being translated at least 2 dozen times while the original speaking of Jesus, the arameian scrolls found at the red see back in 1945, is claimed heresy by the vatican...

[Golan]

It should be clear by now that I don't hold the Christian believe in very high regard, same applies to The Book. One can have said believe without relying on that adventure novel.

Edited by Golan, 25 April 2009 - 20:26.

[Lucid]

Atheist here.

[Alias]

KamuiK, on 26 Apr 2009, 6:16, said:

Golan, on 25 Apr 2009, 22:04, said:

Our live is just a transition anyways, so the pain we have to endure is well worth the lessons we learn for the next step of our journey.

Says a book several hundrets of years old and being translated at least 2 dozen times while the original speaking of Jesus, the arameian scrolls found at the red see back in 1945, is claimed heresy by the vatican...

Not all Christians believe in biblical literalism.

[ultimentra]

Exactly, god gives us evil so that we may distinguish it from good. So that we can recognize it when we see it. this is becoming a circle of thoughts from me. I feel like I keep repeating myself. YES god gives us evil, YES god gives us good. But if he only gave us good, and happiness, how would we truely know what evil is without having experienced it?

[CommanderJB]

Golan, on 26 Apr 2009, 6:04, said:

CommanderJB, on 25 Apr 2009, 16:02, said:

ultimentra, on 25 Apr 2009, 14:42, said:

You hit it right on the mark JB! Thats pretty much what I am saying. We have bad times so that we can appreciate the good times.

So an all-loving god happily inflicts evil on people he sent his son to die to save. Right.

Our live is just a transition anyways, so the pain we have to endure is well worth the lessons we learn for the next step of our journey.

ultimentra, on 26 Apr 2009, 11:27, said:

Exactly, god gives us evil so that we may distinguish it from good. So that we can recognize it when we see it. this is becoming a circle of thoughts from me. I feel like I keep repeating myself. YES god gives us evil, YES god gives us good. But if he only gave us good, and happiness, how would we truely know what evil is without having experienced it?

Why do you need to experience evil in the first place? Why do you need the lessons of suffering if you can spend your life in eternal peace and harmony? Why would god even care if his people 'knew how good they had it' so long as he knew he'd saved them from themselves?

[ultimentra]

Cmon JB, wheres the fun in that?