134 replies to this topic

[Wizard]

Thought it would be a good idea to post some proper info on the game here as we rarely do that. Denkirsons-pro boards have some excellent data on weapon stats and just found this superb little quote explaining recoil/hip spread and ADS.

Quote

First off, let me say that the COD series worked as follows:

* Hip Firing - Weapons fired a bullet, chosen as a random vector, that was always guaranteed to be within the circle as drawn out by your crosshairs. This was known as your weapons spread. If you move or hold down the trigger, the spread would increase and if you stand still and stop firing, it would shrink.
* Aim Down Sight(ADS) - There are many parts to this, but the only important one right now is to know that, as your iron sights kicked around, your bullet was always on point from where your iron sights were when you fired.

Now, to understand BC2, think of it like this. Hip firing is essentially the same as in the COD series...and the ADS is going to work a bit like the hip firing does. Read on:

* Hip Firing - Again, this is basically the same. You have a given spread based on your gun class and it increases if you move or hold down the trigger. It will shrink as you stop firing and stop moving. All bullets are going to fall within a circle drawn out by the crosshairs.

* Aim Down Sight(ADS) - First off, picture your crosshair spread shrinking down to a single dot the instant you aim down your sight. Now, the first bullet is going to be 100% on point to that spot as long as you are standing still.

Now, notice that each gun has a KICK amount. This is going to indicate how much the iron sights will kick after that first shot. Each gun also has an AMP amount. This is a magnifier that increases the KICK if you hold down the trigger.

Example (using arbitrary metrics) : Assuming a given gun's KICK was 10 and the AMP was 0. You could essentially fire any number of bullets and the gun would kick a distance of 10 pixels (arbitrary) after every shot. If KICK was 10 and AMP was 1, each successive shot when holding down the trigger would increase by 1. So, after the first shot was fired, the gun would then kick by 10 pixels, then 11, then 12, etc. Remember, these are arbitrary units just for an example. I'm sure Den knows the real formula.

Everything I've just explained is not that hard but you'll notice, I never stated where the bullets will actually go. (I only mentioned where the iron sights will kick to.) The difference between BC2 and COD is that, when aiming down the sights, the bullets don't always go on point with the iron sights.

Each weapon has RECOIL number like 0.5. Let's just say that the measurement is in degrees. (I'm not officially sure if this 0.5 degree is radius or diameter, but I'm going to assume diameter.) This means that our spread is going to increase by a half of a degree every time we fire without letting go of the trigger. After firing a 20 round mag into someone, we've got a possible deviation of 10 degrees of inaccuracy....and this is on top of the guns KICK which has been jumping around.

Back to our example: The first shot we fired was on point when we aimed down the sights. The second shot kicked 10 pixels to the right, but the bullet did not hit right where the iron sights were. Based on the RECOIL (spread) it is going to land somewhere within a half of a degree of that. The third shot is going to kick another 11 pixels and then the spread is going to increase to 1 degree; and that is where our shot will land. The fourth shot is going to kick another 12 pixels and our bullet will fall within a spread of 1.5 degrees from that spot. So on and so on...

By the time we fire a 20 round mag, we've kicked back and forth like crazy and our spread (or inivisible crosshair circle) has increased to 10 degrees( but it is capped at like 5.5). It is no wonder why people complain that they think the hit detection is broken.

Short story long,
I know I do not have the exact formula laid out perfectly but the important thing to note is that the ADS accuracy is not on point with your iron sights as in COD. Hence, the best thing to do is burst in 2-3 rounds, but we already knew that

Credit to Bigshay for this.

And here are the weapon stats. I know how some of you love this sort of thing

For those of you that play on a console, you should know that the weapons have received a 25% damage bonus due to the usual issues associated with accuracy etc with FPS games etc.

I'll do what I can to keep this updated following patches and when I find more information on vehicles and explosives I'll post back. Might even post some sort of ini code help here once I've been through all the files so far. I've already modified my FOV based on this formula. You can do this in the "settings.ini" file found in My Documents. Does make the screen look a little fisheyed but it's a help.

Edited by Wizard, 10 March 2010 - 14:44.

[Chyros]

Yeah I love Den's board, I'm a big visitor of that . Helped me work out how to get the ingame data from CoD 4 and MW2 as well, and now BC2 too .

Also it might be helpful to note that player health is 100 . Also, degrees for viewkick are generally speaking from the median vector originating from the player (the normal) so it's probably a radius, not a diameter.

[Wizard]

Only Sniper Rifles and HMGs suffer from bullet drop btw. However the T88, SVU and Vintorez sniper rifles don't. If you add ACOG or RDS to the bolt action you suffer none either. Basically playing a pure recon means you get the droop

Also to clarify, for those doubters, the 25% boost IS NOT patched into the PC, yet.

Edited by Wizard, 10 March 2010 - 16:19.

[TheDR]

This video is why Bullet Drop is awesome.

I can't be bothered reading the damage amounts, i like to play the game and judge for myself

[Wizard]

Video fail. Doesn't even load for me.

Useless GT site. Anyway, yes that was very cool and hella lucky.

Edited by Wizard, 10 March 2010 - 16:43.

[Kalo]

Wizard, on 10 Mar 2010, 16:17, said:

Only Sniper Rifles and HMGs suffer from bullet drop btw. However the T88, SVU and Vintorez sniper rifles don't. If you add ACOG or RDS to the bolt action you suffer none either. Basically playing a pure recon means you get the droop

Also to clarify, for those doubters, the 25% boost IS NOT patched into the PC, yet.

If you have a source for this I'll probably marry you. I spent almost all of last night trying to figure out if it was or not! But if you're right then I can't wait till March 18th, supposedly DLC and a Patch are coming around that time.

These bullet stats are accurate and for some weapons are just trash. I was used to 2142 where you shoot a guy a few times he dies relatively easy. But the way the guns are now it's not uncommon to find these rubbish players who think Noob Tubing and Knifing are the best way to win close range (I'm not fucking kidding). Here's why its rubbish, rather then reloading to shoot they'll knife and in that they may have botched their squads survival. Case and point : You run out of ammo all the way around to a soldier or two infront of you, rather then running to cover or safety and reloading you decide to knife. you kill 1...Other kills you. Rezzes dude and the other guys you may have killed. That gang in turn kills your whole squad.

But do remember that for some weapons these required to kill stats you see are dare I say it OP for some. Because really you can't rely on THIS sheet of information alone. It's like trying to describe the color Purple to a blind person.

Edited by Kalo, 10 March 2010 - 20:16.

[Wizard]

Kalo, on 10 Mar 2010, 20:12, said:

If you have a source for this I'll probably marry you. I spent almost all of last night trying to figure out if it was or not! But if you're right then I can't wait till March 18th, supposedly DLC and a Patch are coming around that time.

These bullet stats are accurate and for some weapons are just trash. I was used to 2142 where you shoot a guy a few times he dies relatively easy. But the way the guns are now it's not uncommon to find these rubbish players who think Noob Tubing and Knifing are the best way to win close range (I'm not fucking kidding). Here's why its rubbish, rather then reloading to shoot they'll knife and in that they may have botched their squads survival. Case and point : You run out of ammo all the way around to a soldier or two infront of you, rather then running to cover or safety and reloading you decide to knife. you kill 1...Other kills you. Rezzes dude and the other guys you may have killed. That gang in turn kills your whole squad.

But do remember that for some weapons these required to kill stats you see are dare I say it OP for some. Because really you can't rely on THIS sheet of information alone. It's like trying to describe the color Purple to a blind person.

The source is reliable, however the sheet isn't 100%. Den, a very well know and respected FPS data guru, sort of a low key Jockyitch (Bash & Slash fame), who has opened up every single game in recent memory, has provided the stats AND confirmed the 25% issue. I'll link you back there. The sheet is compilled by someone from his board, but it's based on his stats etc. So there is room for error but not much. He sees them like everyone else and isn't someone who likes incorrect info being distributed about a game.

[Kalo]

I did not attempt to thrash his credibility. The "trash" line in the second part of my post is me hating how some guns are harder to kill with then they should be. And this gives me hope. Can't wait for the damage Buff for PC.

[Wizard]

Some 3rd specialisation armour details now.

In a standoff between 2 tanks, 1 with Warhead and 1 with Reload. The Warhead would win the fight in a head to head/front armour to front armour fire fight.

Warhead increases damage by 1.25 : it would take eight seconds to fire three shells and destroy a vehicle from the front.
Reload reduces time by 0.75 : it would take nine seconds to fire four shells and destroy a vehicle from the front.

In any other situation, including side/rear armour impacts, manouvers or those involving Engineers, Reload would win.

For Bradleys/BMD-3 the Alt Weapon specialisation is the package that will do more damage via the TOW.

[amazin]

using a bradley with tow, i have been able to pull off some pretty good 1 on 1s against tanks, as long as i have the jump on them

[Wizard]

Probably should disregard the above table. Den's table should be used instead as Chyros quite rightly pointed out all weapons suffer range drop now. My bad, didn't see the changes

[Warbz]

Just had a quick look at the stats...

The AN-94 Abakan is the most powerful assault rifle, but the burst fire is a bit shit imo, so would stick with the XM8.

For Engineer guns it's pretty split between the 9A-91 and Scar. Both are almost identical but the scar has more spread. Personal preference between the two I'd say.

Not sure with the medic gun, too many differentiating numbers to do in my head though I'm thinking it's between the XM8LMG and the PKM.

M24 is the best sniper rifle. Though slightly weaker than the M95, the M24 fires and reloads faster. Also use of the Magnum perk seems rather pointless with the semi auto rifles.

Thoughts?

Edited by W!, 19 March 2010 - 02:47.

[Kalo]

W!, on 19 Mar 2010, 3:41, said:

Just had a quick look at the stats...

The AN-94 Abakan is the most powerful assault rifle, but the burst fire is a bit shit imo, so would stick with the XM8.

For Engineer guns it's pretty split between the 9A-91 and Scar. Both are almost identical but the scar has more spread. Personal preference between the two I'd say.

Not sure with the medic gun, too many differentiating numbers to do in my head though I'm thinking it's between the XM8LMG and the PKM.

M24 is the best sniper rifle. Though slightly weaker than the M95, the M24 fires and reloads faster. Also use of the Magnum perk seems rather pointless with the semi auto rifles.

Thoughts?

If you think the AN-94 is "Shit" because of the Burst, I must say you are DOING IT WRONG I find myself more accurate when I go full auto with it then when I do with actual auto rifles. But the XM8 is still good so I can't exactly mock your preferred choice of weapon . And stop trying to think this sheet of information will tell you whats best, It's a matter of comfort as well as power. If you don't like a gun its hard to use, or atleast for myself. I personally stick with :

Assault : AN-94
Engineer : UMP-45 or the starter SMG
Sniper : Barret (Kills Helicopters/veers them off course.)
Medic : PKM for Short, M60 for Long

Edited by Kalo, 19 March 2010 - 03:36.

[Chyros]

W!, on 19 Mar 2010, 4:41, said:

Just had a quick look at the stats...

The AN-94 Abakan is the most powerful assault rifle, but the burst fire is a bit shit imo, so would stick with the XM8.

For Engineer guns it's pretty split between the 9A-91 and Scar. Both are almost identical but the scar has more spread. Personal preference between the two I'd say.

Not sure with the medic gun, too many differentiating numbers to do in my head though I'm thinking it's between the XM8LMG and the PKM.

M24 is the best sniper rifle. Though slightly weaker than the M95, the M24 fires and reloads faster. Also use of the Magnum perk seems rather pointless with the semi auto rifles.

Thoughts?

The AN-94 is super powerful and you hardly notice it has a burst fire at all. The Medic can use the M60 which doesn't seem to have a weakness of any kind at any range, few things can compete with it at any level. The Barrett is also super good as a sniper I've noticed. And the Magnum on the semis does have the advantage of making headshots a 1HK at short range.

Edited by Chyros, 19 March 2010 - 07:37.

[Warbz]

Sorry, shouldve said bolt acion rifles. Not semi automatics.

[deltaepsilon]

I've been maining assault for some time, and I cycle between the AN-94, the M416, and the M16. It seems that the first 4 guns are made pretty much redundant once you've unlocked the last three.

[Wizard]

Currently using the F2000 atm, but I clearly have much better stats with the XM8. The AKS is my preferred sub. Noticing that almost every medic I come up against uses the T88 or the M60.

[Chyros]

deltaepsilon, on 19 Mar 2010, 10:22, said:

I've been maining assault for some time, and I cycle between the AN-94, the M416, and the M16. It seems that the first 4 guns are made pretty much redundant once you've unlocked the last three.

Well it's funny you should say that because I feel I'm at a distinct disadvantage with a low level. Much like fighting in a CoD 4 game with an M9 and no main weapon and without any perks .

[Kalo]

Chyros, on 19 Mar 2010, 11:57, said:

deltaepsilon, on 19 Mar 2010, 10:22, said:

I've been maining assault for some time, and I cycle between the AN-94, the M416, and the M16. It seems that the first 4 guns are made pretty much redundant once you've unlocked the last three.

Well it's funny you should say that because I feel I'm at a distinct disadvantage with a low level. Much like fighting in a CoD 4 game with an M9 and no main weapon and without any perks .

When you get a gold star for the gun you have been using switch it up, best way to rank up. But let me just derail this topic and ask if you're enjoying the game.

[Warbz]

Once you get a Gold star for a gun, you can continue using and get another gold star for it. And therefore another 5000 points. You can then eventually get a platinum star for that gun.

[Shirou]

Am I the only one who thinks its a bit stupid that the damage drop on Sniper rifles isn't differentiated with normal assault rifles when it comes to range. 25 percent less damage in the first 25 to 50 meters

Anyhow, looking at these stats one may conclude that even the Barett can't one shot on range unless headshotting, which I sure as hope is untrue...

With that in mind I won't give too much about them.

Edited by Shock, 19 March 2010 - 17:55.

[Wizard]

Shock, on 19 Mar 2010, 17:54, said:

Am I the only one who thinks its a bit stupid that the damage drop on Sniper rifles isn't differentiated with normal assault rifles when it comes to range. 25 percent less damage in the first 25 to 50 meters

Anyhow, looking at these stats one may conclude that even the Barett can't one shot on range unless headshotting, which I sure as hope is untrue...

With that in mind I won't give too much about them.

I don't think that you're the only one who thinks that the 2HK situation with Sniper Rifles is odd, but it is true. Even with Magnum it can't 1HK at range. However, I think the reason for this is quite sound. Sniping plays a bigger role in this game than most. Infact it's not unusual to have half a team of 16 players as Snipers (not recon), even if they are all ex-MW2 players. 1HK from distance would make this game insanely unenjoyable for anyone playing any other class. I personally think that these stats are there to stop someone from camping a hill or map corner and quick scoping the lame out of everyone. A recon should recon, not sit there and 1HK from across the map.

[Chyros]

Kalo, on 19 Mar 2010, 18:53, said:

[...] But let me just derail this topic and ask if you're enjoying the game.

Actually, I definitely am. In a different way from MW2 which I feel has its strengths and weaknesses over BC2, but I most definitely enjoy it .

Wizard, on 19 Mar 2010, 20:48, said:

Shock, on 19 Mar 2010, 17:54, said:

Am I the only one who thinks its a bit stupid that the damage drop on Sniper rifles isn't differentiated with normal assault rifles when it comes to range. 25 percent less damage in the first 25 to 50 meters

Anyhow, looking at these stats one may conclude that even the Barett can't one shot on range unless headshotting, which I sure as hope is untrue...

With that in mind I won't give too much about them.

I don't think that you're the only one who thinks that the 2HK situation with Sniper Rifles is odd, but it is true. Even with Magnum it can't 1HK at range. However, I think the reason for this is quite sound. Sniping plays a bigger role in this game than most. Infact it's not unusual to have half a team of 16 players as Snipers (not recon), even if they are all ex-MW2 players. 1HK from distance would make this game insanely unenjoyable for anyone playing any other class. I personally think that these stats are there to stop someone from camping a hill or map corner and quick scoping the lame out of everyone. A recon should recon, not sit there and 1HK from across the map.

The combat system is my only gripe with this game. Among others I'd opt for a significant increase in damage for all hand weapons and if I could mod it I would actually implement a combat system more like the CoD series. Of course this is just my taste but I don't think an 11-hit machine gun or a semi-auto sniper rifle that does not kill with a headshot (to take some obvious examples) is justifiable in any shooter game. Lower the amount of hits to kill for everything bt 1-3, make bolt-actions fatal in head, neck and torso and semis fatal with headshots to give a rough sketch.

[Kalo]

W!, on 19 Mar 2010, 17:58, said:

Once you get a Gold star for a gun, you can continue using and get another gold star for it. And therefore another 5000 points. You can then eventually get a platinum star for that gun.

Sure, that'd work. But getting different stars and all that counts towards awards other then the gold stars.

Chyros : I didn't notice these inconveniences when I played you AJ DR and Wiz on the server .


Shock : If this is so immensely unbelievable perhaps you should play Hardcore. You'd very quickly find out why NO sniper rifle does that unless the range is 5m. The Barret is better all around because it has a little less bullet drop and it hurts vehicles. More useful then you'd think honestly.

Edited by Kalo, 19 March 2010 - 23:11.

[Shirou]

In another game with Barett sniper rifles, notably America's Army, the Baretts were balanced due to the difficulty in aiming them (in other words, realistic gun instability instead of a completely fixed aim). That made one shot sniper rifles balanced as it required quite an amount of skill to really 1HK enemies at extreme range, you'd always miss one out of two shots. Especially when standing upright, aiming a barett was an extreme bitch. Thats how it should be though, the thing is meant for prone firing.

This system however would still not be sound for BFBC2 because it takes so much bullets with an assault rifle to kill a sniper. That means that snipers in cover who've been spotted aren't so much the dead man as they should be, because at such range its really hard to kill a sniper before he can find new cover.