963 replies to this topic

[Wizard]

Stinger, on 3 Dec 2010, 13:54, said:

The currency system just dumbs the game down.

I don't agree with you that it makes it "dumber". It makes it easier to get the attachments you want, when you want it. But you still have to achieve kills, victories and objectives to gain that cash. Perhaps the attachments are on the cheap side, but it doesn't make the game any worse than it's counterparts for it.

[Stinger]

The Aug is practically the same in almost every way that you can think of statistically as the FAMAS, but the FAMAS has less recoil and a more predictable recoil pattern than the Aug.

The FAMAS goes up and to the right whilst the Aug can go to up to the left or right.

Lastly *stifles jaw breaking yawn* both weapons use the same iron sights, which is another "feature" that makes them incredibly similar.

If you think the Aug is better, then it is perception and not a factual based assessment because the proof is in the gun stats.

Wizard, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:07, said:

I don't agree with you that it makes it "dumber". It makes it easier to get the attachments you want, when you want it.

Easier. You said it yourself.

I see it that by making everything accessible, within easy reach, it's dumbing down. There's nothing to strive for when you can get everything you want, when you want it.

Wizard, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:07, said:

But you still have to achieve kills, victories and objectives to gain that cash.

This is how you would play the game anyway. There's no difference, except now you're presented with a menu that has the weapon attachments for a price. Weapons still unlock by level so fundamentally the system hasn't changed in that regard.

Edited by Stinger, 03 December 2010 - 15:11.

[Chyros]

Stalker, on 3 Dec 2010, 16:03, said:

btw: I still can't see what's so special about the FAMAS? It's the most used gun, and its stats are quite good, but to me the AUG (or the enfield when silenced) is still way better.

The AUG has more recoil in all directions and less predictable recoil, and the Enfield fires less rapidly AND has more recoil per shot.

That's the problem with the weapon balance in BO. Atrocious as weapon balance was in previous CoD games, there was always some kind of niche benefit of other weapons that would merit its choice under some specific circumstances. For example, the MP5K from MW2 was rather crappy overall, but had almost unmatched close-quarters potential. Just because this didn't even out its weaknesses overall still meant you couldn't slaughter kniferunners with it, for example. In other words, as badly as it was overall, it was never fully possible to prove that something was inferior because even the overall worse weapons had their own strengths in some way.

In BO however, the weapons vary so little among each other statistically (only two rates of fire, roughly three recoil patters, two magazine capacities give or take, many weapons are practically copies of each other etc.) that it's possible to mathematically prove that one weapon is better than another.

[Wizard]

Stinger, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:13, said:

Wizard, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:07, said:

I don't agree with you that it makes it "dumber". It makes it easier to get the attachments you want, when you want it.

Easier. You said it yourself.

I see it that by making everything accessible, within easy reach, it's dumbing down. There's nothing to strive for when you can get everything you want, when you want it.

Then that is simply a case of bad pricing of attachments. It doesn't mean the game is dumbed down. The game isn't dumbed down because of terrible weapon balance, it is just bad because of it.

Stinger, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:13, said:

Wizard, on 3 Dec 2010, 14:07, said:

But you still have to achieve kills, victories and objectives to gain that cash.

This is how you would play the game anyway. There's no difference, except now you're presented with a menu that has the weapon attachments for a price. Weapons still unlock by level so fundamentally the system hasn't changed in that regard.

Which counters your own point, does it not?

What you did in MW2 was grind your way to an attachment, say 500 kills for the Golden Wosits weapon skin..... Letting you get that before 500 kills isn't dumbing it down. It's stopping you from playing forever for one, ultimately pointless, thingy-ma-jig.

[Stinger]

It doesn't counter my point in that what I meant was that the currency system doesn't actually change anything at all regarding the progressional unlock of weapons.

Instead, it just makes it easy to get attachments and removes the hurdles/challenge of getting them, which is something that I particularly liked. It made you play the game with a specific goal in mind when you wanted something, such as an attachment or weapon mastery title.

Quote

The game isn't dumbed down because of terrible weapon balance, it is just bad because of it.

I see the dumbing down of individual weapons, their ease of use with accessibility in mind for newbies, as the main cause of overall bad weapon balance and stagnant gameplay. By making one weapon easy to use, there is no reason to use another.

Edited by Stinger, 03 December 2010 - 15:44.

[Chyros]

Stinger, on 3 Dec 2010, 17:43, said:

By making one weapon easy to use, there is no reason to use another.

I disagree on this point. There are plenty of ways you can imagine that an easy-to-use, overall useful weapon would not by definition beat all others just because of that. Decent weapon balance should by definition nullify this point. The problem in BO is not only that the best weapon is the easiest to use, but that it's the best because it is statistically the best at everything as well.

EDIT: in fact, this is exactly what assault rifles should be like. They should be statistically inferior to SMGs and shotguns at short range, inferior to LMGs at medium range and inferior to sniper rifles at long range, but average in all areas. But because all CoD developers are nonces who like realism, this has never been the case yet.

Edited by Chyros, 03 December 2010 - 23:55.

[TehKiller]

Actually what you just described is supposed to be realistic rather than what we have in the game...

[Wizard]

Quite frankly, I would be interested to see Chyros post his BO theoretical weapon statistics to compare against the current. Just for personal preference. God willing, one day we may see it as a mod

[Wanderer]

Give him a week and he'll make it into a pretty diagram like the official one

[Stinger]

Wizard, on 4 Dec 2010, 0:29, said:

Quite frankly, I would be interested to see Chyros post his BO theoretical weapon statistics to compare against the current. Just for personal preference. God willing, one day we may see it as a mod

I would be interested in seeing that as well.

Do it, mo-fo.

Edited by Stinger, 04 December 2010 - 01:08.

[Chyros]

Way ahead of you partner . Two days after BO released I made this.

It's a first step toward balance, and tbh it's just a rough sketch that would need extensive testing of course. Also, I tried to add as much diversity as I could while trying to stick somewhat to RL weapon statistics such as rate of fire, which led especially the submachine guns to be changed so drastically that I'd need to make a full scheme for myself to come to a full conclusion. This all is just a small bit of back-of-envelope stuff but at the least it should show in which direction I'd want to take the game.

=====================================
CHYROMOD FOR BLACK OPS CHANGELOG v1.0
=====================================
hitloc modifiers head/neck/chest/stomach/shoulders/limbs

-------
GENERAL
-------
-modify penetration modifiers they are now identical to MW2
-modify DVK it is now purely parallactic
-modify ADS movement it no longer produces any noise
-optimise spawn system somehow

-------
WEAPONS
-------
GENERAL
-modify all weapons for their ammunition amounts not to exceed ludicrous starting amounts (std. 1+2 mags akimbo 2+4 mags)

SUBMACHINE GUNS
-modify all headshot modifiers they are now 1,6
-modify MP5K it now fires at 900 RPM
-modify Skorpion it now fires at 850 RPM
-modify Skorpion it now has 20+60 starting ammo
-modify Skorpions akimbo it now has hip spreads of 2,5/2,0/1,5/3/3/3
-modify Skorpions akimbo it no longer gets increased starting and max ammo counts
-modify MAC-11 it now fires at 1200 RPM
-modify MAC-11 it now does 40-20 damage
-modify MAC-11 it now has hip and ADS recoil of X=75/-75 Y=80/-50 @ 1000
-modify MAC-11 it now has gunkick acceleration of 1500 with a maximum of 4000
-modify MAC-11 it now has a magazine capacity of 32 (extended 48)
-modify Uzi it now fires at 600 RPM
-modify Uzi it now does 50-20 damage
-modify PM-63 it now fires at 650 RPM
-modify PM-63 it now does 50-20 damage at 500-330 range
-modify MPL it now fires at 550 RPM
-modify MPL it now does 35-20 damage
-modify MPL it now has hip spreads of 1,5/1,25/1/4/3,5/3
-modify Spectre it now fires at 850 RPM
-modify Spectre it now does 35-20 damage
-modify Kiparis it now does 35-30 damage

ASSAULT RIFLES
-modify M16, M14 and FAL they no longer have a jam function
-modify all headshot modifiers they are now 1,6
-modify Enfield it now fires at 600 RPM
-modify Enfield it now idles 40 units at 0,8 speed
-modify FAMAS it now idles 40 units at 1,5 speed
-modify FAMAS it now does 30-25 damage
-modify Galil it now does 30-25 damage
-modify AUG it now idles 40 units at 1,1 speed
-modify FAL it now does 40-35 damage
-modify FAL it now has ADS recoil of X=50/-50 Y=60/30 @ 1500
-modify M14 it now has a headshot modifier of 2.0
-modify M14 it now has ADS recoil of X=40/-40 Y=40/80 @ 1200
-remove M14 grip
-modify M14 it now has hip spreads of 4/3,5/3/10/8/6
-modify AK-47 it now idles 40 units at 0,8 speed
-modify AK-47 it now fires at 700 RPM
-modify Commando it now fires at 900 RPM
-modify Commando it now idles 40 units at 1,5 speed
-modify Commando it now does 30-25 damage
-modify G11 it now fires at 2000 RPM
-modify G11 it now does 22-17 damage
-modify G11 it now has heavy walling

SHOTGUNS
-modify Olympia it now has hip spreads all 5,0
-modify Olympia it now does 40-30 damage
-modify Olympia it now has 500-700 range
-modify Olympia it now has a rate of fire of 300 RPM
-modify Stakeout it now has hip spreads all 3,0
-modify Stakeout it now does 35-20 damage
-modify Stakeout it now has 500-800 range
-modify SPAS-12 it now does 35-20 damage
-modify SPAS-12 it now has hip spreads all 6,0
-modify SPAS-12 it now has ADS inaccuracy of 6,0
-modify SPAS-12 it now has 400-700 range
-modify HS-10 it now does 40-20 damage
-modify HS-10 it now has hip spreads all 4,25
-add Dragon's Breath attachment, it does 100 damage and has the following values:
-Olympia: spread 4,5 range 500
-Stakeout: spread 3,0 range 500
-SPAS-12: spread 5,0 range 350
-HS-10 spread 3,5 range 400

LIGHT MACHINE GUNS
modify all headshot modifiers they are now 1,6
-modify HK21 it now does 35 damage
-modify M60 it now has a centerspeed of 1600
-modify Stoner 63 it now does 35 damage
-modify Stoner 63 it now idles 28 units at 0,8 speed
-modify Stoner 63 it now has idlestance modifiers of 0,8 and 0,6

SNIPER RIFLES
-modify all sniper rifles they now provide you with a Ghillie suit
-modify all sniper rifles scoping in now centers in on the center of your screen again (no dead idling)
-modify all sniper rifles for 0,2 s after scoping in, damage is 50 at 1000-1500 range instead of 70
-modify Dragunov it now has a maximum rate of fire of 450 RPM
-modify Dragunov it now has ADS recoil of X=-50/55 Y=35/40
-modify Dragunov suppressed it now has hitloc modifiers of 2,0/1,5/1,5/1,0/1,0/1,0
-modify WA2000 suppressed it now has hitloc modifiers of 2,0/1,5/1,5/1,0/1,0/1,0
-modify L96A4 ACOG it now idles 45 units
-modify L96A4 suppressed it now has hitloc modifiers of 2,0/2,0/2,0/1,5/1,0/1,0
-modify PSG-1 it now has hitloc modifiers of 1,5/1,5/1,5/1,5/1,5/1,0
-modify PSG-1 suppressed it now has hitloc modifiers of 2,0/2,0/1,5/1,5/1,5/1,0

PISTOLS
-modify M1911 it now idles 2 units at 0,8 speed
-modify CZ75 it now idles 40 units at 0,8 speed with no stance modifiers

LAUNCHERS
-modify M72 it now does 155-25 damage in a radius of 256
-modify China Lake it now does 155-25 damage in a radius of 256
-modify China Lake direct impact damage is now 75

-----
PERKS
-----
-modify all perks they now have their pro benefits

1ST TIER
-modify Ghost it no longer provides you with a Ghillie suit
-modify Flak Jacket it now negates all shock
-modify Hardline it now allows you to choose four hardpoints
-modify Hardline it no longer provides any bonuses to Care Packages

2ND TIER
-modify Hardened it removes all parallax from damageviewkick
-modify Hardened it prevents players from experiencing damage deafness and disorientation
-modify Scout it is now a 3rd tier perk
-modify Scout it no longer increases sway when breath is released during overtime
-modify Scout it prevents players from forcibly exhaling when firing
-add Overkill
-modify Overkill it makes all weapons benefit from quickdrop

3RD TIER
-modify Marathon it now gives double sprint duration with double-speed recovery
-modify Marathon it now decreases mantling time by 60%
-modify Ninja it no longer increases enemy footstep sounds
-modify Ninja it makes players not show up on Motion sensors
-remove Second chance from the game
-modify Hacker it is now called SitRep
-modify Hacker it no longer has any of its pro benefits
-modify Hacker it now increases enemy footstep sounds by 300%
-modify Tactical Mask it now makes you completely unaffected by flashbangs and stun grenades


-----------
ATTACHMENTS
-----------
-modify ACOG on all weapons they no longer increase recoil
-modify ACOG on all sniper rifles they now halve idle amounts
-modify flamethrower and masterkey they can now be chosen with other attachments
-modify flamethrower its projectiles now move at double speed
-modify grenade launcher it now cannot be chosen without Warlord
-modify grenade launcher it now does 75 direct impact damage
-modify Masterkey it now does 35-20 damage
-modify Masterkey it now has 400-600 range
-modify variable zoom scope it now doesn't reset zoom settings when you scope out


----------
HARDPOINTS
----------
-modify Care Package it can no longer contain:
-ammo
-Valkyrie Rockets
-Blackbird
-Rolling Thunder
-Chopper Gunner
-Dogs
-Gunship
-modify Rolling Thunder it is now a 9-streak award
-modify Chopper Gunner it doesn't show red reticles for five seconds after people have spawned
-removeAttack Dogs from the game
-modify Gunship it no longer shows red reticles for five seconds after people have spawned


I may have forgotten some stuff here and there.

Edited by Chyros, 04 December 2010 - 01:53.

[Destiny]

Everyone hates Second Chance...










...but I love it

[Stalker]

Destiny, on 4 Dec 2010, 5:45, said:

Everyone hates Second Chance...

...but I love it

Its main problem is its bad reputation. Since CoD4 everyone who uses Second Chance/Last Stand is considered a noob.

In BO it's actually probably the best T3 perk (maybe on par with ninja).
If an entire team uses SC Pro, they could probably revive/prevent 1/4 of their deaths. Problem is, nobody uses it and hardly anyone tries to revive someone.


...
And it's still damn annoying.

[Chyros]

It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't selectively useful against the weapon classes that were already weak to begin with, if it didn't make people steal your kills, if the guy wasn't fucking DEAD already and if it didn't make the user invulnerable to all sources of damage for a while.

To me, the perk can fuck right off. This is a shooter game, people don't deserve a second chance if they got killed and people don't deserve a god-mode perk and people don't deserve kills the didn't earn.

[TehKiller]

Didnt they actually removed the "god mode" side of that perk?

IIRC that was one of their main selling points during development (AKA the shit they advertised in a gazilion of vids)

[Chyros]

TehKiller, on 4 Dec 2010, 12:41, said:

Didnt they actually removed the "god mode" side of that perk?

No, though they shortened it. Even if they had removed it completely the other points would still be fully valid though, since an automatic weapon would kill all last stand users with impunity, but semi-autos and sniper riflles and shotguns wouldn't. Also, people would still steal your kills, and the guy should still be dead to begin with.

[Destiny]

In fact Chyros, I die WHILE falling because there is no human with full auto who can make their bullets in mid-air disappear when the person is falling.

[Alias]

As far as I remember in COD4 you could be killed during Last Stand.

[TheDR]

Alias, on 4 Dec 2010, 11:22, said:

As far as I remember in COD4 you could be killed during Last Stand.

There was a period of "God Mode" (was it about a second long?) just after you get knocked down where nothing could kill you.

[Alias]

Yeah, but you weren't completely and totally invulnerable for the 10 or so seconds it lasted.

[TheDR]

Still, it's a pain in the ass that people don't die when you are shooting them as they fall down.

[Destiny]

Well in BO they do, so I don't see why people complain about it. You could just melee that dude (which happens to be me) or sidearm him or use one bullet or toss a special grenade if you want to waste 'em.

[Chyros]

Destiny, on 4 Dec 2010, 13:38, said:

Well in BO they do, so I don't see why people complain about it.

Well, no, you're still invulnerable.

Quote

You could just melee that dude (which happens to be me) or sidearm him or use one bullet or toss a special grenade if you want to waste 'em.

Or you could melee him or sidearm him etc. In fact meleeing a guy in last stand is pretty risky because he might live through the knife. It's not as bad in BO as it was before but the same rules still apply.

@ Des: also, don't think anything of the falling animation, it's just an animation and doesn't reflect what happened on your screen. By the time you've fallen down in the animation, you were dead already for about a full second.

Edited by Chyros, 04 December 2010 - 11:43.

[Destiny]

I've plenty of times I die without even getting into Second Chance actually, Chyros...

[Chyros]

Destiny, on 4 Dec 2010, 13:43, said:

I've plenty of times I die without even getting into Second Chance actually, Chyros...

That's because certain damage types override last stand, for example headshots and explosions.